The-Edge-Scheme

[nazaquad]

You're either fish or foul: you either perfect a power blocking-scheme or a zone-scheme.

I enjoy your article, but I cannot understand how one could be either fish or foul? I am not sure the penalty you may be regarding. But I will learn most certainly.

 

[Redheart]

...fish or foul? I am not sure the penalty you may be regarding....

Darn, guys learning a new language are picky.

 

[JC_AZ]

What are the odds...?

With Arrington's cut-back ability, this blocking scheme seems to be a natural fit for him too.

True, accept the back has got to stoke-it when he turns North. Hopefully, JJ will do this but we won't know until he actually cuts it up and sticks his eyebrows on somebody's lips!

Chances are slim we will see that based on JJ's preference to conduct a nose dive to avoid getting hit...I mean, would you risk getting hit to get a first down to keep a drive going? Maybe if the defender is already laid out on the ground and during JJ's DIVE he lands on the defenders lips we might get to see how he does in this case...

 

[BACH]

Well said, Bach, but bare with me here. Sometimes I make assumptions and I shouldn't!

They practiced zone-blocking and you praise the "pure" blocking scheme (zone or power), but don't you think the overall scheme has to be a mix between the two.

No, I do not think you need a combination of power and zone. In fact, I say determine what you want to be and then perfect what you want to be. This is only my opinion, Bach. Denver and Atlanta have been ripping up the NFL, basically running one-play: the Tackle-Zone (or the 6 & 7 hole zone, to some). Alex Gibbs (OL coach) is the legend that started it all in Denver and then went to Atlanta. He keeps retiring and then coming back...he's like week old Spam, you just keep nibbling...

Looking at our OL I'm thinking power, but looking at Edge and our system I'm thinking zone. Ideally, we would run a zone scheme, but players like Latui, Ross and Milford Brown are terrible fits IMO for the "pure" zone blocking.

Again, well said, but just because you have powerful people in a zone-scheme doesn't make them poor fits for the scheme. The zone-scheme doesn't have to be a finesse-scheme - Denver knocks the crap out of folks. It gets a "soft" label - prompting guys like Warner to say things like, "They just need to get in the way of people," because it doesn't attack a specific hole and because of all the cut-blocks on the backside.

As somebody else posted, isn't the wanted scheme something like what the Chiefs use. They run a semi zone, where they still count on their players to power-block the vital block and then have all other on the line zone block in angles to the play-side.

You know your stuff, Bach. And this is where my assumptions get me in trouble from time-to-time. The Outside-Zone is what you're talking about, the play Priest Holmes and The Edge perfected over the years (and Robert Smith before that). Yes, on the Outside-Zone, there is a down-block on the front-side (or more, based on front), usually by the tight-end, and the UNCOVERED LINEMAN (no defensive lineman lined up over them) pulls around that down-block, attacking the second-level in space. I wouldn't characterize this play as a "power" play because it can hit anywhere down the line-of-scrimmage! You're not attacking a specific hole, per say, you're trying to get the second-level running laterally, allowing the back to find the opening. Many times, on the down-block, the defensive-lineman will play across the face of the tight-end with the second-level running over the top. If the back sees this, he cuts behind the failed down-block and takes it North! This is why you'll see The Edge line-up eight-yards deep in the backfield! It gives him room to run his course, get the second-level running, and then cut it up inside, especially if there's any penetration outside. The Tackle-Zone and the Inside-Zone has no down-blocks, making it, technically, a pure zone concept.

I hope this helps...

I think you misunderstood me in the first paragraph. I was talking about the Cardinals and not in general terms. My point was that this teams O-Linemen and the wanted scheme isn't a perfect match, so I'm assuming that the blocking scheme will at some level be a mix between the two. Do you agree or not?

Making the OL block in angles the the play-side and let the uncovered man move directly into the second level was exactly what I meant in my example. BUT I'm still somewhat confused about my question about the OT sealing of the outside.. When you watch the Seahawks and Chiefs you see Jones and Roaf making a ton of reach blocks, where they hit their guy and then works their way around the player - sealing off the outside. BUT in a pure zone-blocking scheme the OTs would simply downblock their guy and make the RB choose the hole, instead of sealing of the hole on the outside for the RB as the Chiefs/Seahawks do. So isn't their scheme a mix between the two??

BTW...
For anyone with no interest and/or no knowlegde in blocking schemes, who wants to know a bit more of what we're talking about... It pretty easy to figure out what zone-blocking is by watching the Falcon, Broncos or Colts. The power-scheme is perhaps a bit harder to identify, so I would recommend watching the Steelers interior line. Watching Faneca and Hartings working together to create huge holes using the power-scheme is a thing of beauty.

 

[Goldfield]

IMO Zone blocking is the best scheme... The OLine has options how to block their guy so they get beat alot less. It takes a RB with good vision to make this work.

I hope this is exactly the scheme we run.

I think its too early to judge JJ Arrington. last years Oline Was very very bad when it comes to running the ball. It gives the RB bad habbits when playing behind a line like that.

 

[ajcardfan]

I thought many times last season that it looked like some guys were trying to zone block and other were trying to power block on the very same play. Those sorts of mixups often resulted in someone getting a clean shot on the back.

 

[CardinalChris]

By lining up deeper in the backfield, he can see the holes like he did in college, rather than just running blindly to a space in the line, hoping something will break open.

Mark my words - Arrington will be a stud this year behind James.

You of course are assuming there were holes last year to see.

 

[WildBB]

I saw two-practices at minicamp and got fired-up! The Cardinals - on these days, at least - had four-running plays: the outside-zone, inside-zone, tackle-zone and a draw. These plays are designed, of course, to exploit the uncanny vision and running ability of Edgerrin James.

But it wasn't just the harmony of talent matching scheme that got me jacked, it was the plan, the purpose, the direction of it all. Like a Japanese Fighting-Fish, deadly and single-minded of purpose, the Cardinals were working to accomplish something they've been lacking for years: Identity.

You're either fish or foul: you either perfect a power blocking-scheme or a zone-scheme. This identity, this philosophy, affects everything you do as an offense - right down to the "type" of lineman you draft or sign to the roster. But it also affects the type of offense you employ.

Play-action is a HUGE cog in any zone-scheme worth a darn. Peyton Manning and the Colts, in a zone-scheme, have set-the-bar (dare I say destroyed-the-bar) in regard to play-action "technology," shredding the league as if it were paper-machet. Over 40% of passing plays run by the Colts were off play-action, leading the league in that category. Most of those plays came off of zone action.

A zone-scheme is the best play-action in the game of football. At minicamp, James lined up eight-yards deep in the backfield! It takes three to four-steps by the quarterback to reach the "mesh-point" on zone action and then, depending on the protection, another two or three-steps for the quarterback to set-up in his drop. This takes a lot of time and good protection up front.

When teams use zone-action, many teams, like the Colts, use "Max-protection," releasing only two-receivers into the pattern and keeping eight in protection. This, for the most part, affords the quarterback time to throw the ball.

The reason zone-action, especially the outside-zone, is such a lethal play-actor is simple: it takes so much time for the quarterback to reach the mesh-point with the running-back, the second-level (linebackers and walked up safeties) must honor the run-fake.When the second-level honors the run-fake, they cannot drop into coverage; and when they cannot drop into coverage, any receiver released in the pattern has time to get depth down the field (as much time as it takes the quarterback to reach the mesh-point). This cleans up "the look" for the Q, making his throw over the top of the scrambling second-level much easier.

Seeing the "big-picture" unfold at minicamp got me pumped, hungry for more! There is a plan here, there is purpose; there is identity...

Hardy these are some very astute observations. With Edge back there a whole new world opens for the Offense. We now can ball control with the best of them.

I don't think we necessarily have the personell for a zone blocking O-Line - they seem to be more based to play a power blocking scheme.

What kind of scheme did the Cheifs run? They seemed to have the personell to run power blocking schemes as well.

 

[Skkorpion]

I thought many times last season that it looked like some guys were trying to zone block and other were trying to power block on the very same play. Those sorts of mixups often resulted in someone getting a clean shot on the back.

Damn. I thought the same thing but without the TIVOs of home games, I couldn't review the blocking. Reviewing the away games was too painful, so for the first year since 1992, I didn't play the away games again.

Hopefully, this year I (we) won't have reason to be so football depressed.

 

[Hardy Brown]

Hardy these are some very astute observations. With Edge back there a whole new world opens for the Offense. We now can ball control with the best of them.

In theory, Wild, in theory...a few things have to happen before we become like "the best-of-them."

I don't think we necessarily have the personell for a zone blocking O-Line - they seem to be more based to play a power blocking scheme.

Anytime you make a philosophical change in your scheme it's going to take some time to draft for that scheme. Milford Brown was no accident and a under-the-radar signing if you ask me. Houston ran the Tackle-Zone without mercy last year and did very well and EVERYBODY in the stadium knew who was getting the ball. Mr. Brown played very well in that scheme. I think we'll be fine with the personnel we have, not ideal, but fine.

What kind of scheme did the Cheifs run? They seemed to have the personell to run power blocking schemes as well.

Outside-Zone: A combination of a down-block on the frontside, pull the uncovered lineman (playside and backside if the front warrants), and have Larry Johnson run a course outside the tight-end.

 

[Crazy Canuck]

I enjoy your article, but I cannot understand how one could be either fish or foul? I am not sure the penalty you may be regarding. But I will learn most certainly.

1. He misspelled the word. It should be "fowl"

2. It's an expression (either fish or fowl)

Google it, and you'll have an explanation.

 

[Hardy Brown]

I need to proof my stuff! Thanks for the correction, Crazy.

 

[WildBB]

Outside-Zone: A combination of a down-block on the frontside, pull the uncovered lineman (playside and backside if the front warrants), and have Larry Johnson run a course outside the tight-end.

So they run a combination of Zone and power scheme, that's what your saying? Or just that's what their Zone scheme is? Do they have other schemes they run?

 

[D-Dogg]

Hardy, are you a coach or just a very big fan of the concept of blocking. I always find myself watching the blocking more than the play sometimes (with nowhere near your depth of understanding), and recently we've been very chaotic.

I agree with the comments above that we saw last year's group with some guys Zone and some guys Power blocking on the same exact play. I think most of the time those plays were the ones that ended up with JJ or Marcel buried 5 yards deep with the pigskin barely warm in their arms.

Hardy's post makes me excited to watch this team gel over training camp and hopefully with the new coaching and excitement, we can have a solid line. I'm only asking for solid...cut down the mistakes, get on the same page and open some holes without letting the defense hit Edge or JJ as they get the handoff.

It's not too much to ask.

 

[joeshmo]

The only think missing on this thread is a Nazaquad statistical analysis telling us why this new scheme is a bad idea.

 

[MadCardDisease]

The only think missing on this thread is a Nazaquad statistical analysis telling us why this new scheme is a bad idea.

No team running the "Zona" blocking scheme has ever won a superbowl.

 

[Hardy Brown]

They just lead the league in rushing yards every year. It takes more than a great rushing team to win Super Bowls. If you mean to say zone-blocking doeasn't work and teams that run this scheme can't win the big-one, don't hold your breath...

 

[joeshmo]

They just lead the league in rushing yards every year. It takes more than a great rushing team to win Super Bowls. If you mean to say zone-blocking doeasn't work and teams that run this scheme can't win the big-one, don't hold your breath...

He was being sarcastic based off of a few of the other threads and another certian poster. It was a joke.

 

[lobo]

this is a well written piece albeit one needs to know the technical side of the game to really appreciate it....i think hardy is one of the few guys sitting on the steaming metal benches, suffering along with the select few and the brave whom after all the agonizing years actually sees a safe harbor in the distance..a hardy thanks!!

 

[MadCardDisease]

They just lead the league in rushing yards every year. It takes more than a great rushing team to win Super Bowls. If you mean to say zone-blocking doeasn't work and teams that run this scheme can't win the big-one, don't hold your breath...

Sorry Hardy, I was just being sarcastic with nazaquad and his silly statictics. I was implying that arizona (Zona) has never made it to the superbowl with any of their offensive lines. It was my pathetic attempt at humor.

On another note, I truely enjoyed reading your write up on blocking schemes. Very informative. Are you just a big football fan or do you have some football experience?

Oh and is Hardy Brown in refernce to the old LB from San Francisco?

 

[Hardy Brown]

Sorry Hardy, I was just being sarcastic with nazaquad and his silly statictics. I was implying that arizona (Zona) has never made it to the superbowl with any of their offensive lines. It was my pathetic attempt at humor.

Dude, I totally missed that! I read "Zone," not Zona...my bad.

On another note, I truely enjoyed reading your write up on blocking schemes. Very informative. Are you just a big football fan or do you have some football experience?

I have football experience...and I had some great coaches!

Oh and is Hardy Brown in refernce to the old LB from San Francisco?

That's the guy! Brutal...the Knockout-Specialist. Take a look:

Year TM |
+-----------------------------------+
| 1950Baltimore Colts |
| 1950Washington Redskins |
| 1951San Francisco 49ers |
| 1952San Francisco 49ers |
| 1953San Francisco 49ers |
| 1954San Francisco 49ers |
| 1955San Francisco 49ers |
| 1956Chicago Cardinals |
| 1960Denver Broncos
__________________
Give a person a fish and you feed them for a day; teach that person to use the Internet and they won't bother you for weeks.

 

[Jim O]

The meanest, toughest ever!
Cliff Christl
FRIDAY, Dec. 13, 2002, 11:02 a.m.

I was too young when Hardy Brown was playing to remember him, but from everything I've read and heard, he was the meanest, toughest football player that ever lived.

Brown was a linebacker for the 49ers from 1951-'55. He began his career in the old All-America Football Conference in 1948 and ended it with Denver in the American Football League in 1960. He also had brief stints in the NFL with Washington, Baltimore and the Chicago Cardinals.

In his first year with the 49ers, Brown knocked cold 22 backs. He was so tough that he wasn't even allowed to scrimmage against his own teammates.

Billy Wilson, one of Brown's former teammates, recalled several years ago a game against the Steelers in 1951.

"Hardy caught Joe Gere high on the face, and he dropped as if pole-axed," said Wilson. "Coming out on the field with the offensive team, I passed right by Joe. He was in convulsions on the ground. One of his eyes was hanging out of its socket. That night, Gere looked all over Pittsburgh with a pistol. He was going to kill Hardy."

In 1953 against the Eagles, Hardy crashed into back Toy Ledbetter. Ledbetter was carried off the field on a stretcher. At halftime, Ledbetter had to be supported by two teammates as he left the field. His face was still a mass of blood. Hardy nudged Wilson in the ribs and said, "Look at him. Just look at him, Bill! I sure got him good, eh?"

Hardy didn't tackle opponents, he hit them with a lethal shoulder shot to the face.

Bill Johnson, another former teammate who later coached the Cincinnati Bengals, once said of Brown: "Hardy had a fiendish delight in crunching an opponent. To him destruction was the game. It was more important than the points."

Too bad, Hardy Brown won't be playing Sunday.

 

[Hardy Brown]

You're solid, Jim O! Only you could have come up with that tasty morsel...Kleenex, anyone?

 

[abomb]

What a thread!

 

[MadCardDisease]

I have football experience...and I had some great coaches!

Right on! There is no substute for great coaching. I was fortunate enough to learn about the WR position from Mel Gray a former all-pro WR with the Cardinals. However my knowledge of the Offensive line is somewhat lacking and I totally enjoyed your write up.

Oh and is Hardy Brown in refernce to the old LB from San Francisco?

That's the guy! Brutal...the Knockout-Specialist. Take a look:

Year TM |

| 1956Chicago Cardinals |

I had no idea he was a Cardinal at one time. That's awesome!