The end is near....

[HooverDam]

Its hilarious that people keep saying "location is not a factor" and others keep saying "I dont go in large part due to the location." People who post on a board like this are big time sports fans, if location is a big factor for them, don't you think its even a bigger one for the average soccer Mom and her family who live in Arcadia, Scottsdale, Tempe, Mesa, Chandler, etc?

 

[Crash]

I'm just saying this....If Scottsdale wasn't so stupid and they would have let the Coyotes build at the McDowell Rd and Scottsdale Rd location. They would have a bigger draw. Having said that....This team is a pain to watch. No star power and losers every year. I USED to be a season ticket holder. First thing they need to do is fire the Great One. He isn't that great unless he's wearing skates.

 

[Shane]

Its hilarious that people keep saying "location is not a factor" and others keep saying "I dont go in large part due to the location." People who post on a board like this are big time sports fans, if location is a big factor for them, don't you think its even a bigger one for the average soccer Mom and her family who live in Arcadia, Scottsdale, Tempe, Mesa, Chandler, etc?

Then those people arent as big of hockey fans as you may think. You have to have more of an interest in hockey then just being a sports fan. I LOVE sports. But hockey bores me to tears! On top of that I have already proven that the population on the west side of town alone is big enough to support a professional franchise of any kind much less just hockey. You've got at a minimum approx. 2 million people that live in a decent proximity to that arena.

You make it sound as though only sports fans live on the east side and that 4.9 million of the 5 million people in the Phx. metro area live in the east.

If they put a good product on the ice people would come. Its really just that simple.

 

[perivolaki]

Its hilarious that people keep saying "location is not a factor" and others keep saying "I dont go in large part due to the location." People who post on a board like this are big time sports fans, if location is a big factor for them, don't you think its even a bigger one for the average soccer Mom and her family who live in Arcadia, Scottsdale, Tempe, Mesa, Chandler, etc?

Completely bogus arguement.

I live in the west valley and know several people who attend regularly and I've made it to several games myself. If the arena was in Scottsdale you would get a lot of west valley posters making the same "location" arguement.

Like I said I live in Surprise and wouldn't travel to south Scottsdale to see bad hockey but I have traveled to Glendale to see bad hockey.

 

[perivolaki]

Well Sun City West shouldn't really count, those folks aren't likely going to a lot of hockey games unless its free denture glue night. The West Valley is very working class, and theres just not the same amount of money over there as there is in Scottsdale/East Phx. If you would've had it in South Scottsdale youd be putting it in an area with a lot more discretionary income.

Who do you think is attending all those spring training games in the west valley?

Why is the west valley getting all those new spring training facilities?

A lot of those old people from Sun City attend sporting events and there is a lot of money in the further west retirement communities like Sun City Grand. They don't even know theres a downturn in the real estate market.

I'm not saying the west valley has the same amount of money as the east valley but you'd be surprised at the high income areas in the west side. All those old people need investment bankers, doctors, lawyers and who knows what else.

 

[HooverDam]

Who do you think is attending all those spring training games in the west valley?

People from out of town, snowbirds, et cetera for one. Secondly, the Spring Training season isn't as long as the NHL season and the facilities are much smaller, so they don't need to sell as many tickets.

Why is the west valley getting all those new spring training facilities?

The cities on the West side have more aggressively pursued getting Spring Training facilities. Cities like Scottsdale, Tempe, Chandler, et cetera have economies that don't need the facilities to the degree the W. Valley towns do, so they haven't really tried to land them. Though Id imagine both the Rockies and D'backs Spring Training facilities will be both be located East of Central.

I'm not saying the west valley has the same amount of money as the east valley but you'd be surprised at the high income areas in the west side.

No, no I wouldn't. I know the Valley extremely well and am well aware that there are high dollar areas on the Westside. However, the highest dollar places in the Valley are still predominately on the East/NE side of the Valley. This has been true since Anglos came to the Valley, the wealthy white people lived North of the tracks and the river, the minorities lived South. The wealthier people lived closer to Camelback Mountain, the poorer people lived further from it. Part of this was due to the scenery and partly it was due to the wins traveling from W--->E and it being slightly cooler in that area (especially back when it was citrus fields).

I know you West siders are probably taking offense to people saying the location is an issue, but its not meant to be taken that way. Launch Google maps, pull up the Valley and go to satellite view. Where do you see more dirt lots, farms, undeveloped parcles, etc? On the West or East side? Thats right, the West side, that means less people, less population density, and an area thats inconvenient for the majority of the population of the Valley.

Lets toss out Phoenix's population and just look at the burbs on each side:

Westside:
City...........Population
Glendale.......253,152
El Mirage........22,431
Buckey..........50,143
Sun City........38,309
S.C. West......26,344
Youngtown.......4,021
Surprise........90,717
Avondale.......79,798
Goodyear......52,864
Peoria.........146,743
Litchfield Park..5,514
-----------------------
West Valley....792,467

Eastside:
City............Population
Mesa..............452,933
Scottsdale.......240,410
Fountain Hills....25,316
Tempe...........174,091
PV...................14,921
Chandler........246,399
Gilbert............207,550
Apache Jnct.......31,931
Carefree...........3,875
Cave Creek........5,120
Queen Creek......23,610
--------------------------
East Valley.......1,426,156

Thats a difference of 633,689 people. Just the difference is almost 80% of the West Valley cities total.

Now if we want to talk about where the money is, lets look at this list of per capita income by cities in AZ: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arizona_locations_by_per_capita_income

1. Paradise Valley (East side)
2. Carefree (East Side)
3. Rio Verde (East Side) (but tiny and doesnt really count for anything)
6. Scottsdale (East Side)
7. Cave Creek (East Side)
8. Litchfield Park (West side)
11. Sun Lakes (East Side)
12. Fountain Hills (East Side)
13. Sun City West (East Side)
23. Sun City (West side)
24. New River (west side)
27. Gilbert (east side)
29. Chanlder (east side)
32. Peoria (West side)
34. Goodyear (East side)
36. Tempe (east side)
40. Queen Creek (East side)

and the list goes on but I figured a top 40 was a good place to stop.

Again, winning is OF COURSE the #1 factor in the Coyotes struggles but to dismiss location as not at all a factor is amazingly ignorant. The East Valley has more people, and more cities with Higher per capita income, that means, more spending money on sports.

Completely bogus arguement.

........

Like I said I live in Surprise and wouldn't travel to south Scottsdale to see bad hockey but I have traveled to Glendale to see bad hockey.

You realize this proves my point and not yours, right?

You don't want to drive a long way to see a bad product, neither does anyone else. The majority of people live in the EV, thus the majority of people have a long drive to Jobing.com.

And finally, I really don't want this to turn into an EV vs WV flame war. I currently live in Tempe but prefer CenPho to both sides and think places like Queen Creek and Buckeye are equally dull and deplorable.

 

[perivolaki]

Again, winning is OF COURSE the #1 factor in the Coyotes struggles but to dismiss location as not at all a factor is amazingly ignorant. The East Valley has more people, and more cities with Higher per capita income, that means, more spending money on sports.

First of all I don't appreciate being called "amazingly ignorant" and secondly I understand the demographics of the valley. My point is that there is enough population and money within 25 miles of the arena to support a team.

If location is so vital why have the Diamondbacks continued to struggle with attendance? It is all about winning.

I live a long ways from Tempe but I've managed to get to some ASU basketball games in the last two years. It's a long haul but winning cures everything.

 

[PDXChris]

Westside:
City...........Population
Glendale.......253,152
El Mirage........22,431
Buckey..........50,143
Sun City........38,309
S.C. West......26,344
Youngtown.......4,021
Surprise........90,717
Avondale.......79,798
Goodyear......52,864
Peoria.........146,743
Litchfield Park..5,514
-----------------------
West Valley....792,467

Eastside:
City............Population
Mesa..............452,933
Scottsdale.......240,410
Fountain Hills....25,316
Tempe...........174,091
PV...................14,921
Chandler........246,399
Gilbert............207,550
Apache Jnct.......31,931
Carefree...........3,875
Cave Creek........5,120
Queen Creek......23,610
--------------------------
East Valley.......1,426,156

Thats a difference of 633,689 people. Just the difference is almost 80% of the West Valley cities total.

You have to throw the Phoenix population into both since it is in the middle, which is 1.5 million. That means you have about 2 million people with in a decent drive.

 

[Ryanwb]

Where is the line of delineation? Central Ave?

East Side doesn't claim Queen Creek, Carefree or Casa Grande.... Pinal County is full of losers.

 

[Mulli]

"I know the Valley extremely well"




Funny

 

[Ryanwb]

Well Sun City West shouldn't really count, those folks aren't likely going to a lot of hockey games unless its free denture glue night. The West Valley is very working class, and theres just not the same amount of money over there as there is in Scottsdale/East Phx.

Your conclusions seem to be based upon a lot of assumptions that you are using to back up your argument. Is there a direct correlation between per capita income and purchasing hockey tickets? Possibly... however the ability to purchase tickets doesn't directly correlate to the act of doing so. I could afford another car payment, but that doesn't mean I am automatically going to.

There is really no statistical evaluation that is available the isn't conjecture on anyone's part. Aside from a survey posed to all Phoenix area residents asking specific questions relating to why they aren't going to the games. A 25 mile radius of the stadium encroaches into the East Valley so I would venture to say there is some flaw in your argument.

Moreover the current state of the economy could be a driving force of the Coyote's failure.

 

[HooverDam]

First of all I don't appreciate being called "amazingly ignorant" and secondly I understand the demographics of the valley. My point is that there is enough population and money within 25 miles of the arena to support a team.

Look no one is saying winning isn't the #1 issue, but don't you think there are other issues as well? I know you must be smart enough to realize when there's a problem, there's multiple contributing sources to it. Is it that mind boggling to think that location could be the #2 factor?

If you're saying its 0 factor at all, you're just burying your head in the sand. Again, multiple people here have said its an issue for them, so clearly, its an issue!

If location is so vital why have the Diamondbacks continued to struggle with attendance? It is all about winning.

The D'backs haven't had near the attendance problems of the 'Yotes. Their not giving away gobs of free tickets for people to show up. The Snakes are usually in the middle of the pack in MLB attendance, the Yotes are near the bottom.

Last year the D'backs were 15th in overall attendance and 17th in attendance as a percentage of capacity (and thats with Chase field being WAY overbuilt by about 7-10K seats). The Yotes on the other hand were 29th in overall attendance and 21st in attendance as a percentage of capacity.

I live a long ways from Tempe but I've managed to get to some ASU basketball games in the last two years. It's a long haul but winning cures everything.

Right, and thats you, one person. One person does not a full arena make. You can't extrapolate what you're willing to do onto the population at large.

You have to throw the Phoenix population into both since it is in the middle, which is 1.5 million. That means you have about 2 million people with in a decent drive.

Since I don't know of any site that has Phoenix's population broken down by neighborhood I left it out. I made it clear I was just comparing the 'burbs or either side.

It also doesn't mean you have 2 million within a decent drive, I'd say anyone East of about 24th St in Phx has a pretty long haul, and thats a lot of people.

Where is the line of delineation? Central Ave?

Yes Central Avenue always has been and always will be the change over from East to West side.

East Side doesn't claim Queen Creek, Carefree or Casa Grande.... Pinal County is full of losers.

Queen Creek and Carefree are most definitely in the East Valley, why wouldn't they be? And no one said anything about Casa Grande, its too far south and not contiguous with the rest of the Valley.

Also what does Pinal County have to do with anything? All the towns I've listed are either entirely in Maricopa County or the vast majority of their boundary is in Maricopa county.

Moreover the current state of the economy could be a driving force of the Coyote's failure.

I totally agree. If you read my posts I'm saying there are MULTIPLE reasons for the Coyotes struggles. Getting that across has been like this . The Coyotes being bad is the #1 factor, location is a factor, the economy is a factor, the NHL being run by retards and dramatically reducing in popularity in recent years is a factor.

I think the people in this thread that live on the West side for the most part think Im just attacking the West side and aren't really putting forth many rational arguments. Location isn't a factor for them, so I guess it ought not be a factor for the 1.4 million people in EV suburbs.

"I know the Valley extremely well"

Funny

You implying that I don't? Either way, great post! No worries about making cogent arguments, thanks for just be a troll

 

[MaoTosiFanClub]

The main reason isn't the irrelevance of the NHL to casual sports fans which Arizona is mostly made up of.

 

[Mulli]

If you were trying to impress us with your knowledge of the Valley and the use of the word "cogent", you win.
:claphat:

 

[HooverDam]

If you were trying to impress us with your knowledge of the Valley and the use of the word "cogent", you win.
:claphat:

I wasn't trying to do either. perivolaki asserted Id be surprised at the wealthy areas on the west side, I told him Im a native, who knows the Valley pretty well and I wouldn't in fact be surprised.

Sorry I used words that are on the AIMS test, didn't mean to confuse you.

 

[Gee!]

You implying that I don't? Either way, great post! No worries about making cogent arguments, thanks for just be a troll

Why is everyone a dam troll in your eyes when they dont agree with you? You come across as a wannbe know it all lil angry man.. Please correct that or begin the healing process soon.. Thank you and have a blessed day..

 

[HooverDam]

Why is everyone a dam troll in your eyes when they dont agree with you? You come across as a wannbe know it all lil angry man.. Please correct that or begin the healing process soon.. Thank you and have a blessed day..

Do you know what the definition of a troll is? Its a person who posts something that has no content and is only trying to get a rise out of someone. What else are Mulli's post in this thread if not trolling?

You'll notice I didn't say anyone else who disagreed with me in this thread was a troll, just the person who was.

I'm not sure what a 'dam troll' is, sounds like something from the Brothers Grimm.

 

[Gee!]

Do you know what the definition of a troll is? Its a person who posts something that has no content and is only trying to get a rise out of someone. What else are Mulli's post in this thread if not trolling?

You'll notice I didn't say anyone else who disagreed with me in this thread was a troll, just the person who was.

I'm not sure what a 'dam troll' is, sounds like something from the Brothers Grimm.

Hard to know what your definition is since you use it so often.. Your like the boy who cried wolf..

I have no idea who the Grimm Brothers are..

And yes, your anger still seems to control you even when you may think you are calm.. May peace be with you..

 

[HooverDam]

Hard to know what your definition is since you use it so often.. Your like the boy who cried wolf..

Nope, I only use it when its appropriate. Sadly both you and Mulli troll a fair bit, so you get called on it.

I have no idea who the Grimm Brothers are..

Well let me Google that for you...

 

[Gee!]

Nope, I only use it when its appropriate. Sadly both you and Mulli troll a fair bit, so you get called on it.

And only you call us on it appearently.. No one else.. Your hate is blinding you..

One day you too shall feel the serenity of the wind blowing though your hair.. Lets just hope its not late in your life and your have gone bald and will never experience this.. Peace be on to you..

 

[Linderbee]

This thread went from incredibly annoying to really funny in about 5 posts.

Oh, and

The main reason isn't the irrelevance of the NHL to casual sports fans which Arizona is mostly made up of.

For the win. The only real reason hockey isn't surviving here is because it's way, way past its novelty stage when it first came here from Winnipeg, and no one in AZ gives a crap about hockey. The transplants moved here to get AWAY from the snow & ice. No one gave a crap about the Jets before they got here, and no one really cares now. It's not like they brought a big fan base with them.

 

[puckhead]

Glimmer of hope?

Reinsdorf to buy Coyotes?


Whispers on the wind: Jerry Reinsdorf may be interested in purchasing or investing in the Coyotes.
This is interesting.
Reinsdorf has a home in Paradise Valley. He has connections with the city of Glendale, having brokered a deal to move his baseball team out of Tucson and into the new Camelback Ranch facility. One of his attorneys, John Kaites, is an Arizona lobbyist who has done business with Glendale city manager Ed Beasley.
Reinsdorf is also a super shrewd businessman, which raises a significant question: Why would he be interested in a team that many business leaders in town wouldn't buy for $1?
Answer: Reinsdorf would have to get serious concessions from the city to make it work. And then he could attempt to become the first owner in sports history to win championships in the NHL, the NBA and Major League Baseball.
Reinsdorf has won six championship with the Bulls, courtesy of Michael Jordan, and also won a World Series title with the White Sox. The late Bill Davidson won titles in the NBA (Pistons), the NHL (Lightning) and the WNBA (Shock).
As of this posting, Reinsdorf's camp had not returned a phone call. Meanwhile, the Glendale city council scheduled an executive session this afternoon regarding the Coyotes' lease, and don't be surprised if there's a Gary Bettman sighting in town.
Stay tuned.

You must be registered for see images

 

[Ryanwb]

Maybe I'm wrong but unless they add some star power to the lineup, it's just polishing a turd

 

[HooverDam]

Wasn't there a Colangelo-Reinsdorf connection? Obviously they know each other since they were both NBA owners, but I feel like I recall reading they were friends (since both sent significant time in the others city and such), but perhaps Im mistaken.

 

[perivolaki]

I think the people in this thread that live on the West side for the most part think Im just attacking the West side and aren't really putting forth many rational arguments. Location isn't a factor for them, so I guess it ought not be a factor for the 1.4 million people in EV suburbs.

I don't think you're attacking the west side, I just think some of the arguements are not supportable.

We don't really know how many people in the east valley already attend hockey games in Glendale do we?

We don't know how many more from the east valley would attend if the arena was in where? Downtown Phoenix, Scottsdale, Mesa?

In addition we don't know if, or how many, west side ticket purchasers would discontinue going to games if the venue were moved to a different area.

I know the site is a long way if you live in Chandler, but if you live in North Scottsdale it might be easier to drive to Glendale than it is to downtown Phoenix where the team used to play. I know when I've attended Hockey games I can be in and out of the Westgate area in a matter of minutes where as downtown can be a struggle at times.

As far as the troll stuff it might help if you wouldn't call people "amazingly ignorant" in your posts. That usually says more about the poster and their own arrogance than it does about the poster they are refering to.