The Garnett Breakdown - Is it Worth an extra 15 - 30 Million Dollars?

[Joe Mama]

Minnesota isn't going to trade Garnett for a salary albatross (though a very good one), a bit roleplayer, two bad picks in a bad draft, and the potential of one good pick.

If you want to talk Garnett, you have to think Marion + Diaw with Diaw being what Minnesota would actually want in the trade. If they are going to get rid of Garnett and rebuild, I can't see them taking Marion's salary without getting something REALLY valuable out of it.

When we started talking about KG trades about six weeks a go I jumped all over them. I would love Kevin Garnet on this team, and I think he would be a perfect fit. However I quickly realized (well, maybe not so quickly) what you've written here. The Minnesota Timberwolves do not want Shawn Marion. I think any trade to get KG would have to involve more than just the two teams. As Gaddabout has written below, Shawn Marion does have a lot of value around the NBA even if I don't agree with him that every GM and the league would rather have him than Diaw.

I really don't think Chicago is an option for Shawn Marion, and I really don't want to move him at this point for unproven players and salary-cap relief. I don't think there's a chance of that happening this summer. I don't think Shawn Marion is going anywhere anytime soon unless Phoenix gets some proven talent in return.

No offense, but I find it funny when it's assumed other teams now value Diaw more than Marion. Diaw has a lot of value to the Suns as a 6-8 center. No other team in the league wants a 6-8 center. No other team even wants a 6-8 power forward, and Diaw has yet to show any real value playing 1, 2, or 3.

Trust me when I say any team not being run by a crack-pipe smoking GM will want Marion -- salary and all -- more than Diaw. In fact, Marion might have more value to some other team than what he produces per dollar as a Sun. In some cases, a lot more. If the Heat had anything to offer the Suns in return, think they'd give up pretty much anything short of Dwayne Wade to get an athlete like Marion in their system?

I remain in the camp that Marion costs too much on this specific team, but in no way should he be traded for the sake of cutting costs. The only reasonable Marion trade is one that makes us better right now, and I will be satisfied if that trade never comes along.

I also think any trade that allows the Suns to keep Nash and Stoudemire while acquiring KG is totally worth it.

I agree with you that Diaw has not shown much at the 1, 2, and 3. However I think there are a bunch of teams that would love to have him at the 3 and occasionally the 4. You know why a lot of teams would rather have him than Shawn Marion.

We are not talking about a small difference in money. Even if Diaw gets a deal starting at $10 million, which I don't think he will get this summer, he's going to be making something like $24 million less than Shawn Marion over the remainder of Marion's contract. Really, when all is said and done the difference will probably be more like $30 million.

Shawn Marion simply does not initiate his own offense, and he is too simple to stop, at least scoring, in the playoffs. All it really takes is one decent to good defender with the discipline to stick to Shawn Marion like glue. The same cannot be said for Boris Diaw. He can take people off the dribble better than Shawn Marion, and when he can't he will eat that player alive in the post.

Defensively I say it's a tossup. Shawn Marion will get you more rebounds. There's no question about that. Still Boris Diaw is a good rebounder. I would rather have Diaw guarding positions 5-3, but Shawn Marion does give you the versatility if you want to get crazy and switch him on to a shooting guard or point guard. Actually, I think Boris Diaw could handle shooting guards just fine as well.

Now I'm not losing side of Shawn Marion's strong points. The guy has a fantastic motor. If Boris Diaw played with the energy of Shawn Marion we wouldn't even be having this discussion. He's also an Ironman. He's been piling up minutes, rarely missing games, and again playing at a ferocious pace for years.

I really think it comes down to the team as to whether they would rather have Shawn Marion or Boris Diaw. Unfortunately most of the teams that would love to have Shawn Marion are not the teams that have the young assets and/or space under the salary cap to absorb his salary. He also doesn't have the upside which are right or wrong is what a lot of the teams with the assets do want.

I think I just have to look at the trades individually to see if I really believe teams would be interested. Even then I've been known to be quite wrong in judging how other teams value the talent on the Phoenix Suns (of course most of the time that's because of Isaiah Thomas).

Joe Mama

 

[nowagimp]

When we started talking about KG trades about six weeks a go I jumped all over them. I would love Kevin Garnet on this team, and I think he would be a perfect fit. However I quickly realized (well, maybe not so quickly) what you've written here. The Minnesota Timberwolves do not want Shawn Marion. I think any trade to get KG would have to involve more than just the two teams. As Gaddabout has written below, Shawn Marion does have a lot of value around the NBA even if I don't agree with him that every GM and the league would rather have him than Diaw.

I really don't think Chicago is an option for Shawn Marion, and I really don't want to move him at this point for unproven players and salary-cap relief. I don't think there's a chance of that happening this summer. I don't think Shawn Marion is going anywhere anytime soon unless Phoenix gets some proven talent in return.



I agree with you that Diaw has not shown much at the 1, 2, and 3. However I think there are a bunch of teams that would love to have him at the 3 and occasionally the 4. You know why a lot of teams would rather have him than Shawn Marion.

We are not talking about a small difference in money. Even if Diaw gets a deal starting at $10 million, which I don't think he will get this summer, he's going to be making something like $24 million less than Shawn Marion over the remainder of Marion's contract. Really, when all is said and done the difference will probably be more like $30 million.

Shawn Marion simply does not initiate his own offense, and he is too simple to stop, at least scoring, in the playoffs. All it really takes is one decent to good defender with the discipline to stick to Shawn Marion like glue. The same cannot be said for Boris Diaw. He can take people off the dribble better than Shawn Marion, and when he can't he will eat that player alive in the post.

Defensively I say it's a tossup. Shawn Marion will get you more rebounds. There's no question about that. Still Boris Diaw is a good rebounder. I would rather have Diaw guarding positions 5-3, but Shawn Marion does give you the versatility if you want to get crazy and switch him on to a shooting guard or point guard. Actually, I think Boris Diaw could handle shooting guards just fine as well.

Now I'm not losing side of Shawn Marion's strong points. The guy has a fantastic motor. If Boris Diaw played with the energy of Shawn Marion we wouldn't even be having this discussion. He's also an Ironman. He's been piling up minutes, rarely missing games, and again playing at a ferocious pace for years.

I really think it comes down to the team as to whether they would rather have Shawn Marion or Boris Diaw. Unfortunately most of the teams that would love to have Shawn Marion are not the teams that have the young assets and/or space under the salary cap to absorb his salary. He also doesn't have the upside which are right or wrong is what a lot of the teams with the assets do want.

I think I just have to look at the trades individually to see if I really believe teams would be interested. Even then I've been known to be quite wrong in judging how other teams value the talent on the Phoenix Suns (of course most of the time that's because of Isaiah Thomas).

Joe Mama

Alot of good points joe. I agree on all but the defensive comparison, where it seems to me that shawn has shown he can guard 3's period, and most 1's and 2's. Diaw has only shown he can guard some 4's 5's and the slower 3's. The difference is footspeed and quick jumping ability which allows Marion to play off the faster players. On the contrary, Diaw can body up larger post players better than Marion since he can bother shots without jumping with his long reach. When Raja Bell goes to the bench, only shawn among the rest of the suns can cover a quick 2 guard who can score off the dribble. This makes Marion more valuable as a defender, and combined with his superior ability to play the passing lanes for steals and rebounding makes him a better defender overall. If Marion wasnt running all the time, he would also be an even better defender. Marions lapses in D generally occur in the latter part of games where it appears that his feet dont move as well.

Marion takes a beating defensively because he's used by the suns against players that are physical mismatches. Can you imagine Bowen or Prince guarding the likes of Duncan, Brand, Kaman, KG? No, that because their coaches do not use them that way, in an obvious mismatch. If their coaches did, and the help D was like the suns help D, they would be abused by the bigger post players as Marion is. Kobe is also an excellent defender, who is the same size as Marion, but you wont see him guarding those bigger post up guys.