The HS kids

[Freddie]

Originally posted by Chaplin
The point I tried to make about Smith was about his pre-draft status. I don't remember exactly, but was it known ahead of time that he was a head case? If not, then my arguement has some merit. Again, hindsight is 20/20, but we're not talking about hindsight, we're talking about expectations.

Didn't he try and overdose with pills?

I also believe he shattered the windows in his girlfriend's car.

I am not sure if all this was before or after the draft.

 

[Joe Mama]

Originally posted by Chaplin
I understand that philosophy, but the same "Who knows?" stance can be applied to everyone. Chris Marcus is a 4-year collegian who had injury problems, but he still may have a chance at an NBA career. Who knows?

The problem surrounding a #17 pick is that there is no "sure thing". BUT, I would rather pick a player that has a better than average chance at succeeding rather well in the league. IMO, Ebi is a chance player, drafted on potential. His odds on succeeding well in the NBA are low, based primarily on the fact that he is inexperienced and doesn't have an NBA body. The guy is 8 inches taller than me and only 15 pounds heavier! That speaks volumes.

I'm not saying, "who knows?" about everyone. Of course not all players turn out how we expect, but at least with some of these college players we have seen them play a few times. We know some of the competition they have faced. We have something to base our judgments on. With these high school players and even some of the Europeans and most we've seen them play a few minutes against unknown competition. But that's the nature of the draft nowadays.

Zarko has done very little in the European league he plays in, yet he was your guy not more than a week ago. He might be 20-25 lbs. heavier than Ebi, but I guarantee she isn't anywhere as athletic as him. What did Kevin Garnett weigh when he was drafted? 210 lbs.? And he was 2-3 inches taller.


You said in an earlier post that you did not want a Darius Miles type player for the Phoenix Suns at #17. Miles hasn't turned into the next Kevin Garnett as many predicted he would, but he would be a fantastic #17 draft pick for any team.

Originally posted by Chaplin
The thing is, that can be said about every player from every walk of life. So what makes Ebi any different?

Again, I'm looking for a proven player. The odds of Ebi becoming another Amare are extremely thin. Remember, Amare was a 9th pick, who probably could have been drafted higher, while Ebi's best spot would probably be us at #17.

No, the same could not be said for every player from every walk of life. What makes him different is that he seems to have the determination, great athleticism, youth, and a decent inside/outside game. The Suns do not need to draft another superstar. Chances are there won't be any of those players available at #17. I'm sure they would love to get their hands on someone who can be a good role player with that pick.

Originally posted by Chaplin
The point I tried to make about Smith was about his pre-draft status. I don't remember exactly, but was it known ahead of time that he was a head case? If not, then my arguement has some merit. Again, hindsight is 20/20, but we're not talking about hindsight, we're talking about expectations.

It really doesn't matter whether it was known before or after his drafting. There are probably only 4-5 guys that have been taken in the first round over the last 10 years or so that have mental problems like his. In fact I can't remember anybody being that that. The Mavericks, who traded for him, obviously did not do their homework well enough, but his problems were not with his game as far as we know. His problem was that his elevator just didn't go all the way to the top floor.

I don't think you can rule out somebody you know next to nothing about when we are talking about the 17th pick. He skinny and raw, but that doesn't mean he won't be a very good NBA player.

Joe Mama

 

[Chaplin]

Originally posted by Joe Mama

It really doesn't matter whether it was known before or after his drafting.

Huh? That's what this whole conversation is about! We may draft Ebi and he turns out to be psycho as well--and then what? Again, and I can't believe I'm repeating this--this is about pre-draft and scouting, not about what happened to the guy AFTER he was drafted. It's the risks you take, and a risk IMO isn't worth taking when considering Ebi.

I don't think you can rule out somebody you know next to nothing about when we are talking about the 17th pick. He skinny and raw, but that doesn't mean he won't be a very good NBA player.

Joe Mama

Again, you are ignoring the crux of my arguement. I'm not saying there is no possibility of Ebi being successful at the NBA level. I AM saying, however, that there are other players that I feel have a better CHANCE of being successful at that level.

 

[Joe Mama]

Originally posted by Chaplin
Huh? That's what this whole conversation is about! We may draft Ebi and he turns out to be psycho as well--and then what? Again, and I can't believe I'm repeating this--this is about pre-draft and scouting, not about what happened to the guy AFTER he was drafted. It's the risks you take, and a risk IMO isn't worth taking when considering Ebi.

Well, obviously the Phoenix Suns aren't going to draft someone they think might be a psycho. The chances of that happening again are slim to none. It's only happened a few times to begin with. In the only other guys I can think of are Brian Williams and maybe Ron Artest. Neither of those players was as bad as Young, and they both have been major contributors in the NBA. If a team doesn't do their homework that could happen with any player, not just a high schooler.

Again, you are ignoring the crux of my arguement. I'm not saying there is no possibility of Ebi being successful at the NBA level. I AM saying, however, that there are other players that I feel have a better CHANCE of being successful at that level.

That may be true, but if that's the crux of your argument I don't think you've made it very clear up until now. What myself and I'm sure slin have gotten from you so far has been that "Ebi would be a waste". You've been saying that high school players taken in the second half of the first round don't pan out very often. Yet there's only been 4 of them and 2 of them are good NBA players (one of them is an Allstar and soon to be maximum salary player), one of them was a nutcase who failed in the NBA because of mental problems, and just one has been on the team but not done much (Stevenson). He was taken 23rd in an extremely weak draft.

Like I said, I do agree that it would be nice to get a player that could contribute significantly right away. However I won't be disappointed if the Suns take a player because they see so much potential that they can't pass him by.

BTW, I think Travis Outlaw might be a great pick. I think you'll really like him. He is less polished than Ebi, but he is super athletic. I thought the clincher for you would be that he is the same height as Ebi, but he's 10 lbs. lighter (6-9, 195 lbs.).

http://www.nbadraft.net/profiles/travisoutlaw.htm

Joe Mama

 

[Chaplin]

I've thought about Outlaw, and, really, I'm just not too enthusiastic about any of the high schoolers this year...

 

[Freddie]

Do either of you know what Rashard Lewis was like coming out of HS? He was a second round pick and turned out to be pretty good.

 

[elindholm]

I've thought about Outlaw, and, really, I'm just not too enthusiastic about any of the high schoolers this year...

But, come on, how cool would it be to have two players named Outlaw on the same team?

For what it's worth, I don't recall that anyone on this board was too enthusiastic about Stoudemire at this point last year. He was projected lower than 9th in almost every mock draft, and there was a lot of discussion about him being raw and unproven.

Having followed this discussion, I must say that I agree with what Chaplin's revised stance seems to be, which is that all things being equal, it's probably better to take a player that you know more about. I've never been a big fan of "potential" or "upside." If players have had even a year or two in college in order to show what they can do against other, uh, man-sized competitors, by all means it's good to be able to use that information.

 

[Chaplin]

I just am tired on drafting on "potential". I remember those days of Barkley and the expectations of going far in the playoffs. And when I see the glimmer of that possibility appearing again, I am more supportive of finding that next piece that can put us over the top, rather than getting a guy that "might" be good in 2 years. We did that last year and got lucky, but lightning doesn't strike twice.

 

[hcsilla]

Originally posted by jbeecham

What I like about picking Zarko over any HS player s that he has already played against some top NBA competition and his team won.

Did he?Against who?

 

[JCSunsfan]

Originally posted by hcsilla
Did he?Against who?

Shawn Marion for one. He was on that Gold Medal Yugoslavian team that shamed our NBA populated Dream (aka nightmare) Team.

 

[hcsilla]

Originally posted by JCSunsfan
Shawn Marion for one. He was on that Gold Medal Yugoslavian team that shamed our NBA populated Dream (aka nightmare) Team.

I do not think that Cabarkapa played a single minute against USA.
His PT on the WC was very very limited.

 

[cly2tw]

In a reasonably transparent world, the law seems to be Low risk is associated with low return, High risk with high return. With the Suns' roster, what low risk talent you could get at #17 is quite easy to be had via free agency, with probably even better risk-return ratio. So, I'd like the Suns to gamble big with their #17.

 

[Chaplin]

Zarko didn't play at all in that game against us in the 2002 World Championships.

And cly2tw, the Suns have never been that great at free agency, especially recently. (Penny seems to be the last real impactful free agent pickup, and look what happened there, not to mention Googs) All of our great players have been trades or draftees, not free agents. I say stick with what you know, and make a good, informed decision in the draft. Our history dictates nothing less.

 

[PhxGametime]

Ebi has length, quickness, speed, jumping ability - to be defensive presence from beginning at SF at 6'9 and shot-blocking ability... if these college prospects can add weight from college to NBA then... Miles and Kirilenko were thin and I wouldn't mind a back-up SF that has potential BUT that can play a role on team (defender) PG's struggle early on, and European players aren't known for defense and most are undersized as well (although Diaw sounds like a good fit) and other than shooting are overated... the better big men will be taken high... */F and undersized PF's will be left at #17 - if you're not high on Ebi, name some prospects that you'd feel can contribute right away?

 

[PhxGametime]

BTW for those wanting production this year and high on European players - Gasol is only European to average 10+ ppg rookie year of same year drafted that I've noticed (looking in 2002-2003 yearbooks)...

 

[Chaplin]

I'm tired of going on and on and on. I've named my reasons--if you don't appreciate them, then so be it. No big deal.

Ebi has length, quickness, speed, jumping ability

So do a lot of people. Doesn't mean he's worth a #17. Heck, I have quickness, speed and jumping ability. Doesn't mean I'm going to be drafted, does it?

 

[Joe Mama]

Originally posted by Chaplin
I'm tired of going on and on and on. I've named my reasons--if you don't appreciate them, then so be it. No big deal.



So do a lot of people. Doesn't mean he's worth a #17. Heck, I have quickness, speed and jumping ability. Doesn't mean I'm going to be drafted, does it?

Something tells me you are not 6-9 with arms down to your ankles. We've already established that never match you in person but am I wrong in assuming he probably also has a vertical 50% greater than yours? I know you are being sarcastic, but you know that he meant Ebi has quickness , speed, and jumping ability that almost all of the college/European players that will be available at #17 do not have.

Yesterday's ESPN Insider said that one of the Russian players shot the lights out at his workout for Boston. I believe he also measured 6-8. I wouldn't mind one bid if the Phoenix Suns drafted one of these European guys if he can actually shoot well.

Joe Mama

 

[hcsilla]

Originally posted by Joe Mama
Yesterday's ESPN Insider said that one of the Russian players shot the lights out at his workout for Boston. I believe he also measured 6-8.

Joe Mama

Wasn't it Viktor Khryapa?

 

[slinslin]

Originally posted by elindholm


Having followed this discussion, I must say that I agree with what Chaplin's revised stance seems to be, which is that all things being equal, it's probably better to take a player that you know more about. I've never been a big fan of "potential" or "upside." If players have had even a year or two in college in order to show what they can do against other, uh, man-sized competitors, by all means it's good to be able to use that information.

That's why the scouts and GMs decide who we pick and not us. They are supposed to know about every potential draft pick.

Just because a player played 1 or 2 years in college does that really mean you know more about his basketball skills, upside, mentality?

On the other hand a highschooler usually has better ability to pick up things quickly and hasn't really develloped bad habits.

I am not a fan of picking someone like Nick Collison who probably comes in and puts up 8 points and 4 rebounds off of the bench but will never really improve like Shane Battier.

Ebi is 6'8 has arms that reach down to his knees, can jump, is a very good shotblocker with great timing, plays with heart and desire, plays tough defense and apparently has a good J and can put it on the floor.
I have yet to read anything negative about him from someone who has actually seen him play a couple of times and not only in Allstar games.

I also read an article that said he pretty much dominated the #1 rated junior in highschool who is like 6'9 260lbs down low. I think that guy's name was Al Jefferson or something like that but I can't find the article anymore just read it on an UofA message board.

He was also recuited by schools like Arizona, Duke, Nort Carolina and some more which is pretty impressive and speaks for itself.
That's why I am high on this kid.

He could play 2,3 in his first years and also PF later when he is done growing.

 

[slinslin]

Originally posted by BbaLL_31
BTW for those wanting production this year and high on European players - Gasol is only European to average 10+ ppg rookie year of same year drafted that I've noticed (looking in 2002-2003 yearbooks)...

Dirk Nowitzki pretty much dominated shortly before he was drafted.

Gasol put up very good statistic before he was drafted.

Many of the european prospects right now don't put up stats and most of them are a few years older than Nowitzki when he was drafted.

(Ginobili and Hilario although not european put up good statistics, Ginobili might have won MVP in Italy already before he was drafted but I am not sure)


Gasol is the only european rookie who had real impact anyway. Giricek had some impact but I am not sure what he was putting up in europe.

 

[slinslin]

Originally posted by Joe Mama

"Sheesh"

BTW when did I meet you in person? I don't think that that anybody on this message board except Skkorp in person.

Joe Mama

I am sure you met me in person when we discussed our new tactics on the Anti-Chaplin bandwagon.

 

[hcsilla]

Ginobili was one of the best players in Europe in 2001/2002.

Giricek was the MVP of the Croatian League but he wasn't that well-known in Europe.

 

[Chaplin]

Originally posted by slinslin
I am sure you met me in person when we discussed our new tactics on the Anti-Chaplin bandwagon.

This is exactly what I'm talking about slin.

Let it go, huh?

 

[Chaplin]

Originally posted by slinslin
I am not a fan of picking someone like Nick Collison who probably comes in and puts up 8 points and 4 rebounds off of the bench but will never really improve like Shane Battier.

Just so there is no confusion, I am also against drafting Nick Collison, for different reasons, of course.

 

[slinslin]

Originally posted by Chaplin
This is exactly what I'm talking about slin.

Let it go, huh?

ROFL

I didn't even check this thread for like 2 days to let it go because I was pretty pissed off at your ******* pointless comments that started this.

Pretty ironic that you say "let it go" when you came back with your great crybaby post and get offended even when all you were trying to do in this thread was to offend me. Anti-Chaplin bandwagon is your own invention and you can't let it go just read the post below.

I find it very amusing that several people on this board can't take an opposing opinion. Everyone starts in like it's some personal attack

You get offended all the time even when I say something like ''I don't expect to get into the fantasy basketball playoffs but get into the finals'' you get offended.