The Keepers

[BC867]

I get that. However, I have seen him get burned or miss a rotation or get picked and play bad defense just as many times as I have seen him play good defense. He looks lost out there sometimes. His opponent per isn't great despite having some really good looking defensive games on occasion.

Don't get me wrong. I think at his age and point in development he is probably where he should be which is a mixture of good and bad. When your team is as thin upfront as we are it's no wonder things fall apart when even someone resembling a competent body goes to the bench.

Len's two biggest detriments for a young player are his inability to stay on the court due to foul trouble and injuries.

I believe that needs to be included in any evaluation of Alex at this point.

Unfortunately, the Suns history of not being able to develop, and giving up on, their last three starting Centers doesn't help the situation.

You don't build confidence in a player's potential by benching him every game in the 4th quarter. Who finishes is just as important as, if not more important than, who starts.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Len's two biggest detriments for a young player are his inability to stay on the court due to foul trouble and injuries.

I believe that needs to be included in any evaluation of Alex at this point.

Unfortunately, the Suns history of not being able to develop, and giving up on, their last three starting Centers doesn't help the situation.

You don't build confidence in a player's potential by benching him every game in the 4th quarter. Who finishes is just as important as, if not more important than, who starts.

You know that's not what they did with Len right? Foul problems, ankle problems and rookie wall/exhaustion is all that's limited Len's 4th quarter minutes. Our best rotation, by far IIRC, was Bledsoe, Thomas, Dragic, Keef and Len. I think we'd have continued to close with that lineup if Alex had held up, at least until we made the trades.

Steve

 

[BC867]

You know that's not what they did with Len right? Foul problems, ankle problems and rookie wall/exhaustion is all that's limited Len's 4th quarter minutes. Our best rotation, by far IIRC, was Bledsoe, Thomas, Dragic, Keef and Len. I think we'd have continued to close with that lineup if Alex had held up, at least until we made the trades.

Steve

Steve, most of the games during the first half of the season, with the 3-Point Guard closing lineup, PJ or Marcus was pushed up to Power Forward and Kieff to Center. Len was the odd man out. Because of team philosophy.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Steve, most of the games during the first half of the season, with the 3-Point Guard closing lineup, PJ or Marcus was pushed up to Power Forward and Kieff to Center. Len was the odd man out. Because of team philosophy.

That's not so. We had that stretch in December where we played very well with Len closing and then he mysteriously stopped closing. Near the end of the month we found out why, he was having problems with his ankles and Jeff was having to manage his minutes. Then we went through the stretch where we were finally playing him big minutes until he started struggling because of exhaustion. Followed by more ankle problems. IOW, every time we've tried to increase his minutes he's come up tired or lame, it has nothing to do with team philosophy.

Steve

 

[Errntknght]

My memory agrees pretty much with Steve's. A few times Jeff sat Len because of foul trouble where I thought he shouldn't have but since Len began starting I've never had the sense that Jeff was limiting Lan's minutes because he preferred another option.

 

[AzStevenCal]

My memory agrees pretty much with Steve's. A few times Jeff sat Len because of foul trouble where I thought he shouldn't have but since Len began starting I've never had the sense that Jeff was limiting Lan's minutes because he preferred another option.

i'm probably in the minority here but I'm almost always against the idea of sitting a player because of foul problems. IMO you sit them if you think they are losing control of their emotions or if they've clearly angered a referee but otherwise, if you need the guy keep him out there. Use up those minutes, they all count and I'd just as soon let Len use up all 6 of his fouls.

Steve

 

[BC867]

i'm probably in the minority here but I'm almost always against the idea of sitting a player because of foul problems. IMO you sit them if you think they are losing control of their emotions or if they've clearly angered a referee but otherwise, if you need the guy keep him out there. Use up those minutes, they all count and I'd just as soon let Len use up all 6 of his fouls.

Steve

I agree with you. Why bench a player and assume he is going to foul out vs. letting him play and if he does, he does? It is not like Len has been saved for crunch time.

But I also think that, in Len's case, his fouls are out of control. If left unchecked, he'll be fouling out in the first quarter.

He needs some serious coaching to overcome that problem and change his reputation with the refs.

I've shared my opinion that Mark West, who earned the reputation of Mr. Foul Trouble, is hardly the coach to make that happen.

Sadly, it seems that in the two most unique positions on the floor, Center and Point Guard, Hornacek is content to let things happen rather than make things happen.

 

[Phrazbit]

Len's foul rate is down from what it was the first few months and down significantly from last year. Clearly he IS progressing there.

His drop in minutes of late has been because he is banged up and appears to have hit a bit of a rookie wall.

I'm not too stressed about him. He has come farther this year than most of us thought possible.

 

[AzStevenCal]

]Len's foul rate is down from what it was the first few months and down significantly from last year.[/B] Clearly he IS progressing there.

His drop in minutes of late has been because he is banged up and appears to have hit a bit of a rookie wall.

I'm not too stressed about him. He has come farther this year than most of us thought possible.

Yep, he had that short stretch where he was frequently logging 30 minute games until the ankle problem resurfaced.

Steve

 

[Mainstreet]

i'm probably in the minority here but I'm almost always against the idea of sitting a player because of foul problems. IMO you sit them if you think they are losing control of their emotions or if they've clearly angered a referee but otherwise, if you need the guy keep him out there. Use up those minutes, they all count and I'd just as soon let Len use up all 6 of his fouls.

Steve

I understand your philosophy and we probably have had this discussion before. The reason not to leave a player on the court with foul problems is because his backup will need periodic rest during the game. I don't think it is wise to play a backup without a backup if that makes sense.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

I'm getting there, but I'm not sold on him yet. He has shown flashes, more than I thought were possible. But lots of big men show flashes, so whether he can sustain it is still an open question.

He's the top keeper, but that's more because the rest of the roster is dreadful rather than him being a hot prospect.

Fair enough. When you look at the rest of that draft though, he was likely the right pick....even at #1

 

[sunsfan88]

Fair enough. When you look at the rest of that draft though, he was likely the right pick....even at #1

If the draft was redone now, I think at least Gobert and Oladipo both go ahead of him.

 

[hcsilla]

If the draft was redone now, I think at least Gobert and Oladipo both go ahead of him.

At very least.

Schröder, Dieng, Noel and Adams at least would be heavily in the competition for being drafted ahead of Len.

 

[Phrazbit]

What a crap shoot that draft was. Two years in and no one from that draft has really made a name for themselves yet. A few guys look nice or promising but other than Oladipo nobody has even emerged as a solid starter. This is not a knock on Len, I'm happy with his progression but he is more promise than product still.

If the draft were redone today it would still be almost as hard to peg the top 10 as it was then. Oladipo is likely the #1, then after that... who knows. Len, Adams, Shabazz, Schroder, Gobert, Dieng, Adams, Plumlee, Olynyk, those guys could go in almost any order and it would not surprise.

One thing we do know is that the Bennett would not be in the top 10... or 1st round for that matter. Barring a miraculous turn of fortunes he is well on his way to "worst #1 pick of all-time". Dude might be out of the league before his rookie deal is up.

 

[slinslin]

Gobert and Giannis would go ahead of Oladipo.

if you believe the fan opinion poll it would be

1. Giannis
2. Gobert
3. Oladipo
4. Noel
5. MCW
6. Len
7. Dieng
Schröder, Adams, Shabazz

 

[Wally]

Bledsoe's turnovers cost him my vote - he's a turn-over machine. I'm not sure he would ever be capable of handling the ball. I'll give Kinght the benefit of the doubt over him at this time but that could change.
Len, Warren & Goodwin (?) all have the potential to long term players for the Suns and I also think Wright could be a consistent player off the bench.