The MVP Race... over?

[TucsonDevil]

I saw this article on ESPN, by the brilliant Scoop Jackson...
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=jackson/070409

He begins his article with this sentence, "Steve Nash basically won the MVP award Sunday. But that's not the issue. The question now has become: Does he deserve it?" Mr. Jackson, then goes on to tell us that Nash isn't deserving of Wilt, Russell, or Bird status... thanks Scoop.

Also, the ever insightful Jamele Hill wrote a week or so ago on the MVP race... http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=hill/070409&sportCat=nba. Among other arguments, she claimed that the Dirk supports are going to need to convince her of his worthiness of the award, because, she doesn't buy in yet.

Here is my point... WHY in world is Kobe listed as being in the discussion? His team has won 40 games? Look, if the Lakers need Kobe to score 50+ in order to win - then Kobe should be scoring 50+ regularly. That is what an MVP candidate does - he makes his team an elite team by his play and performance. Has Kobe made the Lakers an elite team by his play and performance? I don't respect the argument that the MVP goes to the 'best player', since Basketball is a team sport. It should be limited to players on the "best teams". The Lakers are not in that discussion. There is a chance that they could miss the playoffs - and people are saying he is a candidate? There is one week left in the season, and they are fighting for a spot. Can I get a sanity check here? Nash won the award last year due to delivering the third best record in the West after losing Amare in the preseason. Most people thought the Suns would struggle to make the playoffs. Nash proved everyone wrong about that prediction, delivering a remarkable year for the Suns. At the beginning of this year, people thought the Lakers would challenge for a Top spot… then injuries came. They are struggling to even make the playoffs down the stretch. How did Kobe elevate his team?

Side note…I am getting tired of the claim that Kobe's teammates are terrible. So what? They have NBA talent. The Lakers could have made trades... but the word was the Lakers’ organization thought the asking price was too high - thus destroying the argument regarding 'terrible teammates'. However you slice it – that is what that means. Period. If they all ‘sucked’, wouldn’t you be willing to trade every single person (sans Kobe) for a ‘Kevin Garnett’?

Another surprising revelation – “NASH has won the award?” Huh? I love Nash, but I felt that they needed to beat the Spurs, and thus keep themselves as the favorite to make it to the finals. Now, there is doubt again in the voters minds regarding the greatness of Nash and the Suns... well apparently Scoop didn't care, and possible others don't either.

Long story short... I am very surprised that the MVP winner might be Nash again (I think he is a deserving candidate with his best year, blah blah blah, but not a frontrunner). I would be disappointed to see him receive another tainted MVP award in the eyes of his critics. I want him to hoist the championship trophy this year over his head. That will be the statement that will solidify his greatness, not a third in a row. Dirk is deserving of the MVP award, his team has been great, and they haven't lost focus all year... something the Suns can't claim.

 

[DeAnna]

I don't think Nash will win it again - teams have been going after him to expose his bad defense (and have been very successful, btw).

 

[elindholm]

Here is my point... WHY in world is Kobe listed as being in the discussion?

Because he lives in Los Angeles, and the media are trying to sell papers, or commerical time, or web page hits, or what have you.

No one actually believes that Bryant is an MVP contender. He will get less than 10% of the first-place votes, and the votes he does get will be from either L.A.-based voters or renegades who think they're making some sort of "statement."

The only reason he's part of the "discussion" is to make the discussion more "interesting."

 

[NativeSun]

Nash deserves it...

but it's doubtful he'll win it given the historical significance of a 3rd straight MVP. People will be looking for any excuse not to give it to Nash, and Dirk's given it to them with the Mavs having the league's best record.

But the simple fact is, the Suns are a middle of the pack team without Nash. The guy is amazing, and means more to his team's high level of play than Dirk means to his team's high level of play.

 

[Gaddabout]

I don't think Nash will win it again - teams have been going after him to expose his bad defense (and have been very successful, btw).

Nash's defense is better than advertised. He's not a one on one defender, but he usually does a good job driving opponents into help from other teammates. He also does a great job staying in front of opponents closer to the basket, as evidenced by his large number of charges taken (currently 6th in the NBA). He does a better job than Barbosa, IMO.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

Nash's defense is better than advertised. He's not a one on one defender, but he usually does a good job driving opponents into help from other teammates. He also does a great job staying in front of opponents closer to the basket, as evidenced by his large number of charges taken (currently 6th in the NBA). He does a better job than Barbosa, IMO.

Barbosa, and his lack of defensive intensity, is one of the most frustrating things to watch as a Suns fan. He has all of the tools needed to be a good defender, and yet the only good defensive plays that you see him make, is playing the passing lanes, and trying to stop a 1-on-1 fast break.

 

[Scot1]

I'd venture that since Nash usually defends the other team's PG, a lot of his defense should be of the 'disrupt the play early' variety; also, he may get caught in the P&R dilemma more often than other players. If so, at best he's going to seem out of position more often than usual, and it would be extra hard to take charges--which makes his record of taking charges all the more striking.

I too would be content if he and Dirk were co-MVPs; I wish somebody, just for the spectacle, would persuade Kobe to channel Nash for a game or two, aim to get 3-point assists and P&R baskets for Kwame or someone, etc.

 

[sunsfn]

I don't think Nash will win it again - teams have been going after him to expose his bad defense (and have been very successful, btw).

DeAnna,
If Nash does not win the 3rd MVP, it is not because of his defense. He is playing better defense this year than he ever has. You and others keep reading these National writers that do not watch the suns games and are talking about Nash like he played years ago. If Nash does not win the 3rd MVP (he should because he is playing better than he has the last 3 years) it will be because Nowitzki and the Mavs have the best record.

Now if you want to talk defense, watch Nowitzki play defense, he is worse at his postion than Nash is at his. Nowitzki is an excellent player, and I wish he was a sun, but he has not earned the MVP any more than Nash has this year.
Nash also is an excellent prime time player, and Nowitzki has fallen in that category many times this year.

 

[Covert Rain]

DeAnna,
If Nash does not win the 3rd MVP, it is not because of his defense. He is playing better defense this year than he ever has. You and others keep reading these National writers that do not watch the suns games and are talking about Nash like he played years ago. If Nash does not win the 3rd MVP (he should because he is playing better than he has the last 3 years) it will be because Nowitzki and the Mavs have the best record.

Now if you want to talk defense, watch Nowitzki play defense, he is worse at his postion than Nash is at his. Nowitzki is an excellent player, and I wish he was a sun, but he has not earned the MVP any more than Nash has this year.
Nash also is an excellent prime time player, and Nowitzki has fallen in that category many times this year.

Exactly. If you didn't give it to Nash because of D then you would have to eliminate Dirk as well. I have never seen a guy of his size get worked down low more then Dirk. If Nash doesn't get it, it's because the media doesn't want to see him get 3 in a row.

 

[pokerface]

I think Dirk deserves it this year. His team has done more and its mostly because of him.

Besides, what do we care if Nash gets it again or not. We already proved we got one heck of a free agent and he won the MVP twice already....a third MVP doesnt prove anything more to anyone. We should be more interested in Nash getting the MVP of the finals award at this point.

 

[pokerface]

Exactly. If you didn't give it to Nash because of D then you would have to eliminate Dirk as well. I have never seen a guy of his size get worked down low more then Dirk. If Nash doesn't get it, it's because the media doesn't want to see him get 3 in a row.

Dirk deserves it....dont even go down that road because it sounds kind of ignorant. If Nash doesnt get it then Dirk should PERIOD.

 

[jenna2891]

Dirk deserves it....dont even go down that road because it sounds kind of ignorant.

you may have misunderstood what he was saying.

Exactly. If you didn't give it to Nash because of D then you would have to eliminate Dirk as well. I have never seen a guy of his size get worked down low more then Dirk. If Nash doesn't get it, it's because the media doesn't want to see him get 3 in a row.

 

[Griffin]

I just love the argument that Nash should not get third straight MVP because he's not at the same level as Bird, Russell or Wilt. That argument means it really doesn't matter what kind of a season he has, he's eliminated from contention before the first game is even played.

If Nash without two straight MVP's would have been the MVP this season, then the two-time MVP winner Nash should as well. Anything else is disgraceful to the process.

 

[jenna2891]

If Nash without two straight MVP's would have been the MVP this season, then the two-time MVP winner Nash should as well. Anything else is disgraceful to the process.

exactly. each season should be self-contained. any past or future performance/recognition should never enter into the discussion.

 

[SO91]

That shoudl be the case, but unfortunately it's not, and there isn't much that can be done about it. I personally want Dirk to win it, so Mavs fans can shut up. Hopefully that would mean a pissed off Nash in the playoffs, doing what MJ did the year Malone won it. The only player I want to get recognition is Marion, so he'll **** and play without worrying about being overlooked

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

DeAnna,
If Nash does not win the 3rd MVP, it is not because of his defense. He is playing better defense this year than he ever has. You and others keep reading these National writers that do not watch the suns games and are talking about Nash like he played years ago. If Nash does not win the 3rd MVP (he should because he is playing better than he has the last 3 years) it will be because Nowitzki and the Mavs have the best record.

Now if you want to talk defense, watch Nowitzki play defense, he is worse at his postion than Nash is at his. Nowitzki is an excellent player, and I wish he was a sun, but he has not earned the MVP any more than Nash has this year.
Nash also is an excellent prime time player, and Nowitzki has fallen in that category many times this year.

i love little stevie nash as much as the next guy, but you're smokin' the home cookin' a bit too much here. am i saying dirk is a good defender? no. but steve is a sieve. have you not seen him lit up consistently by every pg lately? he made smush (who had a combined 18 points in his previously 3 games, or something like that) look like an all-star. he tries hard. and he's good at drawing the charge. but steve let's his man go where he wants when he wants. he's just not athletic enough to keep up with superior athletes. just admit it, he has a flaw. he's still an mvp.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I just love the argument that Nash should not get third straight MVP because he's not at the same level as Bird, Russell or Wilt. That argument means it really doesn't matter what kind of a season he has, he's eliminated from contention before the first game is even played.

If Nash without two straight MVP's would have been the MVP this season, then the two-time MVP winner Nash should as well. Anything else is disgraceful to the process.

bingo

 

[Covert Rain]

Dirk deserves it....dont even go down that road because it sounds kind of ignorant. If Nash doesnt get it then Dirk should PERIOD.

Ignorant? I don't think you get it. Where did I say if Nash doesn't get it Dirk shouldn't? Where did I say that someone else should get it if Nash doesn't? I didn't say that at all.

What I said was that you can't ELIMINATE a player like Nash because of defense. If that was the sole criteria for eliminating him then you would have to eliminate Dirk. I think who is worse at their respective positions is open for debate.

Get it now?

 

[sunsfn]

i love little stevie nash as much as the next guy, but you're smokin' the home cookin' a bit too much here. am i saying dirk is a good defender? no. but steve is a sieve. have you not seen him lit up consistently by every pg lately? he made smush (who had a combined 18 points in his previously 3 games, or something like that) look like an all-star. he tries hard. and he's good at drawing the charge. but steve let's his man go where he wants when he wants. he's just not athletic enough to keep up with superior athletes. just admit it, he has a flaw. he's still an mvp.

Actually I was answering another posting that referred to Nash missing out this year on his 3rd MVP because of his defense. I was saying that Nowitzki is not any better at defense and so that should not have any bearing on the voting.

ouchietheclown,
I am not smoking the home cookin' as you say, and as far as admiting he has a flaw, I never said he was a great defender, just that he has improved this year.
And for you to say he is a sieve, makes me wonder what you're smokin'.

 

[msdundee]

That shoudl be the case, but unfortunately it's not, and there isn't much that can be done about it. I personally want Dirk to win it, so Mavs fans can shut up. Hopefully that would mean a pissed off Nash in the playoffs, doing what MJ did the year Malone won it. The only player I want to get recognition is Marion, so he'll **** and play without worrying about being overlooked

Dirk taking the MVP wouldn't result in "a pissed off Nash" in the playoffs or any other time, that's not his style. I think he's at least equally deserving again this year, but from comments he's made on the subject, winning the third MVP is far less important to Steve than it apparently is to the fans.

As I recall, MJ wasn't happy when Barkley won it either

 

[SO91]

I know he doesn't show it, but he's competitive as hell. While Dirk is his friend, I have to think there would be a little extra motivation to stick it to the Mavs and Cuban, as is usually the case when they meet, although he will never say so.

 

[tobiazz]

Nash has had a more impressive season than Dirk, but it would be a little weird to see the Mavs win 68-69 games and Dirk not get the MVP.

And the only reason Kobe is in the discussion, is so that there _is_ a discussion. The myopic media needs _something_ to write about.

The MVP award is a stupid award anyway. Not as stupid as the 6th man award though--an award for the ~75th best player in the league.

 

[Griffin]

Nash has had a more impressive season than Dirk, but it would be a little weird to see the Mavs win 68-69 games and Dirk not get the MVP.

Jordan led the Bulls to a 69-win season in 1996/97 but did not win the award, those some may say he was robbed. Malone, whose Jazz won 64, ended up the MVP. So there is definitely precedent. I understand the impulse to give the award to the best player on the best team, but if the two best teams are separated by five games or so (like then and now), the winning percentage should become less of a factor.

 

[FArting]

It seems like a lot of people misunderstood the purpose of yesterday's discussion of point production. My beef is that many people use a player's ability to score points as a trump card in the discussion of "who's the best." When that happens, the debate basically devolves into a question of "who would win a game of one-on-one?"

However, basketball isn't a one-on-one game (at least, it isn't supposed to be). It's five-on-five, which is why I think if the debate focuses on points, it's important to consider point production rather than points scored. If a player's worth is defined by the points he is responsible for, I think assists should be included in the discussion. Of course, doing so is problematic, since it's difficult (if not impossible) to determine whether an assist led to a two-pointer or a three-pointer, whether a player scored while getting fouled (and made the resulting foul shot), and whether a pass led to a shooting foul (and the subsequent freethrows) without appearing in the box score. It also doesn't account for the relative quality of teammates, the type of offense a teams uses, and so on.

I was simply trying to introduce a slightly modified way of thinking about scoring in the NBA. I'm not a Kobe-Hater. Well, actually, I do hate Kobe Bryant, but not because of the way he plays basketball. I readily concede that he's the best scorer in the league, and incredibly exciting to watch. I just don't think that makes him the de facto best player. One unfortunate byproduct of Michael Jordan's reign is that many people think that the greatest player must necessarily be the most unstoppable scorer, and I don't believe that's the case.

Now, let's talk about what I call "the defensive myth." Most of the people who consistently disagree with me in the Nash-versus-Kobe Debate repeatedly point out how "terrible" Steve Nash is on defense and how great Kobe is. Personally, I think this is a cop out. It's become all too easy to make these blanket statements about the relative defensive abilities of these players. After all, if people say it often enough, it must be true...right?

I said "not so fast," and pointed out in the comments section how well some of the better shooting guards have performed against Kobe this season: Ray Allen had back-to-back 30-plus-point games; Michael Redd dropped 45 on him; Dwayne Wade scored 40 and 35 points; Gilbert Arenas scored half of his 60 points (14 in the fourth quarter, 16 in overtime) after Kobe specifically asked Phil Jackson for the defensive assignment; and Kobe asked to guard Lebron in the last game before the All Star break, and James put up 38 points.

I used these examples because one of the primary arguments that was used against Nash winning the MVP last year was that some of the opposing All Star-caliber point guards had big games against him (most notably Chauncy Billups). But here's the thing: great players are going to score points, no matter who's guarding them. So I don't think it's necessarily reasonable to expect Nash to shut down Billups, or for Bryant to shut down Wade or Lebron. I just figured that I'd use the enemies tactics against them.

In the interest of fairness, however, I decided to take a random sample of how opposing point guards have fared against Steve Nash this season, and how opposing shooting guards have fared against Kobe Bryant. I decided to calculate the opposing players' averages in field goal percentage, points, and assists for the month of January. I chose January because it was after Kobe had recovered from off-season knee surgery and before Steve Nash injured his shoulder.

Steve Nash: Nash played 16 games in January. Opposing point guards shot 36.4 percent (89-244), scored 14.8 PPG, and dished 4.9 APG. The Suns were 15-1.

Kobe Bryant: The Mamba played 15 games in January. Opposing shooting guards shot 45.6 percent (109-239), scored 21.6 PPG, and dished 4.6 APG. The Lakers were 8-7.

So, just by the numbers, Kobe allowed opposing players to score more while shooting a much higher percentage, and they compiled almost as many assists per game. Now, again, this is a very basic statistical analysis. It doesn't take into account team defensive schemes, defensive switches, and alternating defensive assignments. Still, I find it pretty interesting. Not so much that players scored more against Kobe; after all, shooting guards are supposed to shoot the ball. What I find interesting is the descrepancy in shooting percentages. If Nash's defense was so absolutely horrible, would opposing point guards be shooting such a terrible percentage? It's something to consider...

Bottom line: The random sample provides a strong indication that, despite proclamations to the contrary, Nash does not surrender more points than he produces. Is he a great individual defender? No. But he operates very well within the team defensive scheme designed by the Suns' coaching staff. Opposing PGs just aren't lighting him up.

One last note on Kobe's defensive abilities. There's no question that Kobe has they physical and mental capacity to be a great defender (whereas Nash does not). And he has, in times past, put those talents to spectacular use. But capacity does not equate to actuality. I've watched him enough to know that he rarely focuses his abilities on the defensive end (no doubt conserving energy for his offensive duties). Furthermore, Phil Jackson sometimes "hides" Kobe on the defensive end by giving him lesser defensive assignments. (This is a common Phil Jackson tactic; he used to "hide" Jordan as well, particularly during the Bulls' second threepeat. In the 1997 Finals, Jordan's defensive assignment was Greg Foster. In the 1998 Eastern Conference Finals, he guarded the nearly immobile Chris Mullin rather than Reggie Miller, and in the Finals he guarded Jeff Hornacek -- who was partially hobbled by chronic knee pain -- rather than the younger, faster, more athletic Bryon Russell.)

Oh, and for the record, I do consider Magic Johnson to have been a greater player than Michael Jordan. But that's a subject for another day.

http://basketbawful.blogspot.com/search/label/Steve Nash

 

[F-Dog]

Nash isn't going to win this year.

His problem is, he hasn't been close to a unanimous selection either of his two MVP years--in 2006 in particular, Nash came out of a crowded field, mainly by virtue of having the most second-place votes IIRC. Most of the people who weren't confident in Nash's candidacy last year will figure that this year is Dirk's "turn".



I like to see the bright side: a second-place finish this year will do a great deal to secure Nash's legacy (and validate his wins in 2005 and 2006).