The Packers did it right, the Cards didn't.

[az jam]

Two years ago Farve had a great year for the Packers. They just missed going to the Super Bowl. He retired in the off season and then changed his mind and wanted to come back. GM Thompson took a lot of heat for trading him to the Jets as the team had committed to go with Aaron Rodgers. They struggled last year but Rodgers got better as the season progressed. Today the Packers have a good young team and one of the best young qbs in the NFL.

Last year the Cards had a wonderful magical season led by Kurt Warner. In the off season he was a free agent. Card mgmt panicked about losing him even thought they had a good young qb in Leinart waiting to take over. They gave 39 year old Warner a two year $20 million contract. Shortly after signing the contract he had hip surgery. During the preseason and first game one could tell that he was not the same as last year. He is physically struggling.

Meanwhile Leinart sits on the bench.

The Packers made the right decision which was not popular with their fan base. The Cards didn't. They gambled on Warner.
I would rather lose with Leinart getting the playing time than watch this offense under Warner.

 

[ajcardfan]

This is a better metaphor for our situation than the Montana-Young one.

HOWEVER, it's still the same conclusion for me. Right or wrong, Graves and Whisenhunt obviously didn't believe enough in Leinart to let Warner go. In fact, they had so little faith in Leinart that they promised a QB, who had never done anything, a chance to beat out Leinart for #2 and paid him over the minimum. How could they have given the reins to Leinart when they weren't even sure of him as a #2?

 

[TJ]

It was as much of a business decision as it was a talent one. No, the FO and coaches didnt think Leinart was the answer yet, but imagine the upheaval from the fans and the media had they let Warner go after an unprecedented SB run. Without Warner, the Card's fan base and relevancy would shrink considerably.

 

[SuperSpck]

I can't wait for Warner to have his next 400 yard game and for everyone to again be riding his wagon hard.

This board has got the personality of a manic depressive.

 

[Rats]

This board has got the personality of a manic depressive.

Always has and always will There are those that truly do not like Kurt Warner and all that he stands for. It does not matter what he does for th Cardinals. They shut up and seeth when he is going good but come out of the wood work when he is struggleing. Yesterday the entire offense struggled. Lots of penalties and unhealthy players. Warner deserves some critic for his poor play but most should go to the poor gameplan( scripted 1st qt plays) and no adjmnt to what the Niners were doing on defense. I think the Coach simply did not have the confidence in his injured guys to up the tempo and sense of urgency. They had none yesterday on offense. They stayed in the game against an inferior offense but should have had 30 plus points if they would have attacked the Niner defense. They didn't and lost.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

I can't wait for Warner to have his next 400 yard game and for everyone to again be riding his wagon hard.

This board has got the personality of a manic depressive.

Not me. Maybe he still gives us the best chance to win. I am no longer convinced.

 

[chickenhead]

I don't actually fully buy the Green Bay comparison. Favre ultimately forced the Packers to cut him loose because his annual offseason debate was putting them at an extreme disadvantage in the draft and in player development, and they couldn't propoerly address their needs because they didn't know what they were. Had Favre not pushed it so far, I believe he'd be playing there as long as he wanted to.

Aside from his reaction after Boldin's injury, Warner did not waffle on retirement like Favre. He also didn't end the Cards' season with a bad throw. The Packers have a large, loyal fanbase, while the Cards are trying to use their Super Bowl recipe to consolidate one.

There's also the fact that the Cards may not have been as sure about Leinart as the Packers were about Rodgers.

But, I do give the Packers credit for sticking to their decision once it was made. The Cards bigger failing by comparison was waiting so long to address the Kurt situation.

 

[Doug]

I can't wait for Warner to have his next 400 yard game and for everyone to again be riding his wagon hard.

This board has got the personality of a manic depressive.

Thankyou for being a longtime member of this board and saying something so right.We had NO ONE to stretch the field yesterday.I saw the awesome Jay Cutler throw 4 interceptions last night and I know all of Chicago isn't asking for his head on a platter and for the #2 to be starting right now.

Every Cardinal board is the same way.Its about 90+% Leinart people and about 10% Warner (is gonna be okay)people.Maybe we should let the Leinart folks see what reality would really be like right now.I'm all for it.

The two teams we play next played each other to a VERY low scoring tough fought game yesterday and I watched it all.Neither game is gonna be any less tough than the one we just played.First we play a team on the dreaded east coast early game and they are the ones that lost yesterday like us.They will be hungry.

I certainly don't want to tug on anyones cape in this post.I'm just a lot older maybe than most and don't see after the smoke clears why we can't see it as a long race instead of a sprint this is almost over.Watching game film is gonna be really tough on our guys.They ALL keep repeating the same stuff they did wrong in pre-season.

We won't beat anyone but ourselves with the same drive killing penalties on both offense and defense.It took the whole team to lose that game.Not just one person.Lets be more objective IF we can.I know some won't be happy till Leinart is the starter but I don't see that happening until Whiz totally gives up on Kurt.Do any of you? Why does everyone see hip problems when Kurt has said he has more mobility with the surgery and can move more freely?

Kurt took a few hits again like ususal and I did'nt see him break.I saw a hit that would have taken out a few NFL qb's and Warner was right back in after it happened.

Why can't we run the ball? Is that Warners fault too? Kurt can take snaps under center just fine.I saw plenty.I even saw one play action fake that looked very good.Why not more? We are so predictable in our play calling.It looks like martz is calling the plays again.

I even think Hasselback had a couple interceptions yesterday but I doubt they are calling for his backup either.I just want wins.Leinart or Warner is fine with me.I don't think its the guy behind the centers fault for the whole game.

Using the high risk blitz defense left many a 9er wide open as in the final touchdown which Whiz said a certain player was Suppose to be covering that man.We don't know who,but no one should be that open.I don't think this team is as well coached as we all thought it was.A-Dub is still making the same mistakes he made twice at least in pre-season.He has not learned how to time his blitzing yet.Not even close.Two offsides in pre-season for the same thing.

I could go on all day.I better stop or I'll get banned.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

I could go on all day.I better stop or I'll get banned.

These types of posts will never get you banned.

 

[CaptTurbo]

I am pro Warner and pro Leinart. That being said I truely believe Matt is ready to go. If Warner plays out his contract we lose Leinart in free agency and lose both of our QB's.

 

[Stout]

Poor Warner. We're picking on him. It isn't his fault. BLAH!

When Warner plays well, I love the guy. When he plays like a goat, I can't stand the guy. I'll cheer him on like nobody's business (I think Phillycard knows what I mean when I say I cheer like a maniac), but I will NOT let him off the hook.

Was Warner under pressure, and did he have a great running game, and were all of his receivers healthy? We know the answers to these questions. Does ANY of that excuse the two pop-warner (pun intended) interceptions, holding the ball for days, looking like a beaten puppy, making boneheaded decisions, NOT HITTING OPEN RECEIVERS, and causing penalties? NO.

I would have excused Warner a heck of a lot yesterday without that litany of mistakes. And make no bones about it, it is a looooong list of what he did wrong ALL by himself. I refuse to let him slide based on what he did last year, or the size of his contract. They're going to trot him out next week no matter what, and probably the week after. Okay, he's starting for us, so I'll cheer him like a maniac. If he keeps playing like he did this past week, though, I will throw him under the bus again.

 

[CaptTurbo]

Actually is this Leinarts last year on his contract or next year?

 

[conraddobler]

I've pointed out what about KW's game I don't like, I never root against him, ever, to do so means that I have to root against my team.

That's impossible, even in a meaningless game at the end of season I want to win the game.

I've stated a lot of my reasons for wanting the Matt era to begin, not because I'm that fond of Matt but because we have a 38 year old QB as our main QB, that's not going to be there much longer no matter how much we all argue, the future needs to start now IMO so that if it's NOT Matt we find that out too, we have to lock up our future at that spot pronto, Matt needs to play to find that out, pronto, not because I want Matt but because we need to figure that out like NOW.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

Actually is this Leinarts last year on his contract or next year?

He has one more year IIRC, but he is due to get like 14M in escalators next year? I'm sure someone will come correct me, but he is due a crazy amount of bonuses.

 

[chickenhead]

I'm pro both as well. But in the long-term I want Leinart to be the guy since we've invested in him, and since drafting a new QB could mean wasted years for other offensive pieces unless we get a Ryan or a Flacco. So assuming there will be a productive Leinart era, I'd like it to begin as soon as possible, but when it's ready.

I like Warner a lot. I liked him when he was in NY because he showed a lot of class, and I'm thrilled that he's had the comeback he has. That said, when he falters, he disintegrates. Hopefully this week was an off day, and I'm already looking forward to next Sunday.

 

[Doug]

He has one more year IIRC, but he is due to get like 14M in escalators next year? I'm sure someone will come correct me, but he is due a crazy amount of bonuses.

You are dead on ,on all accounts here.Its gonna be a soap opera no matter what happens.I just hope Warner lights the engines next week to show some that his age in the NFL is much younger than most.He started very late in the BIG GAME.I thought he looked pretty good in the Steeler game and I don't think a very minor surgery took that much out of him.It was'nt a surgery that should cause a 70 year old to worry too much.

Kurt himself said he had to work harder during the offseason to get back into shape.Working harder than normal due to the rehab of his injury.I'm sure coach Lott had a lot to do with Warners rehab also.Gotta love you some coach Lott.

It seems like if Kurt can put up some 400 yard games soon maybe the neighsayers will just not post as much.They won't say good game by Warner but just say nothing.

Too many are worried about Next year and the year after when we need to be focused on NEXT WEEK.Anything can happen to Matt Leinart in a game also.Not saying he can't take a hard hit or anything but I personally have my doubts about his durability over a 38 year old man.Sorry thats just my opinion.

I know THE coach Whiz has seen every throw made in practice and in pre-season and OTA's also.So he knows who his best guy is.Who can read the field the fastest and who HE wants in the game right now when the team is struggling.I was dissapointed in Warners game yesterday too.I did'nt see him show the fire that I normally see.Something was wrong that I don't think we know about.It isn't a normal thing to see Larry Fitzgerald run for the tunnel the second the game is over and miss praying on the field like ususal.Win or lose.Something is up.

I feel like Warner has almost the (TO)effect on him here in ARIZONA.He must get Fitz and Boldin the ball and get it to them now and early.So sometimes it is forced when other people are open and easier yards are to be made.I don't think they are anywhere near the drama queens TO is but I think the whole CARDINALS NATION wants Fitz and Q to get the ball early and often.Even if they are'nt the best options.I know once again ya'll are gonna put the crazy suit on me.

I don't like our #7 wide reciever and Long should'nt be on the active roster or this team.We can do much better.Gee says it best about Long.When I watch other teams with speedy wide recievers I'm jealous.Without a healthy speedy Breaston we look less than average and we need to find out what Wells can really do.

We did'nt run one sweep yesterday.We need to try and get the ball to Wells in the open on a pass or something.He has speed and moves no one else on the team has.The OC and HC need to find a way to get this done.

I put the soap box back where I found it now.

 

[Sandan]

This is a better metaphor for our situation than the Montana-Young one.

HOWEVER, it's still the same conclusion for me. Right or wrong, Graves and Whisenhunt obviously didn't believe enough in Leinart to let Warner go. In fact, they had so little faith in Leinart that they promised a QB, who had never done anything, a chance to beat out Leinart for #2 and paid him over the minimum. How could they have given the reins to Leinart when they weren't even sure of him as a #2?

Maybe they had sufficient faith that they really wern't risking anything

 

[BW52]

Not me. Maybe he still gives us the best chance to win. I am no longer convinced.

Well said.While damn happy with what Warner did LAST SEASON mostly..........Gambling and hoping a 38 year old QB coming off surgery can repeat his performance seems a bit unlikely.While hoping KW can play up to high standards i hope the Coach will make a change if needed and not stick to KW if it becomes obvious he isn`t finding the skills up to par.Make a change if needed and don`t stick with KW all season if it becomes apparent he isn`t getting better.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

Man I couldn't agree anymore with this OP. I have used the Packers parallel over and over again. Unfortunately the perception conscious Cardinals would NEVER have let Kurt walk and maybe rightfully so after what he did last year.

But that doesnt' mean it wasn't a mistake. And for those of you asking no I won't be ridign Warner's jock when/if he throws another 400 game.

I am done with this charade and have seen all I needed too to be honest. Bottom line: I don't think Kurt spent enough time on football this offseason and we are paying for it. Thats inexcusable to me. And now we might have to trash the season OR continue riding his mediocre play at the cost of having an unsettled QB situation next year again. No thanks.

I give Warner till Game 4 - If we are 1-3 or worse then its time to move on period. We might have made a mistake by signing Warner but the bigger mistake would be to realize that fact too late.

Think about this. If we lose to ATL or even CAR last year in the playoffs, Matt is likely the starter this year.

As sad as this sounds I want Warner to stink it up and make this an easy one on the coach. I just don't see the perfect confluence of last years circumstances happening again and we don't have the luxury of riding Kurt to an 8-8 season. That does nothing for us.

 

[az jam]

One point I was trying to make with the post is Warner's health. Prior to last season it was stated by Warner that he had a great off season and was in the best shape that he had been in a long time.
This year he had hip surgery and has stated to the press during training camp that he is indeed in pain. He has not looked good in the preseason games or yesterday. He is having trouble on handoffs and doesn't seem to be able to throw the deep ball. He is missing his receivers.

I don't watch film, I'm not a scout and some of you certainly pick things up much better than me. He has taken a lot of hits and has had many injuries. Recovery at his age is not the same as a younger player. 'I;m not throwing him under the bus and sure wish he would have a 400 yard (as long as they win). Bottom line though for me as I think he has more physical problems than we know. I think when he is struggling it would make sense to sit him down and play Leinart.

 

[Doug]

Could never root for Warner to stink it up for the CARDINALS.NEVER.What if Levi Brown misses Freeny about 10 times on Sunday Night and Matt Leinart due to Brown having his backside is taken to the hospital.How will that make you feel? Why not play each week as they come and not focus on one player.

I played 9 years and that many CRUCIAL penalties at the times they came would KILL any team.Warner has said he had to work extra hard during the offseason to rehab his hip.He said it only hurt when he stands still and as long as he's moving he does'nt even know he had surgery.He also added he has much more mobility and flexability since the surgery and is very glad he had it.It was done with a scope and not a major insiscion.So it was'nt any kind of major surgery that would hurt a 38 year old.

Man would I love to be 38 once again.That is a puppy.Especially when Kurt missed many games with the lambs and Giants due to others playing while he sat on the bench on his way out.Plus he started the Pro game way late in life compared to other qb's that have taken as many hits and Warner is known for his toughness in taking that hit to complete a pass.Thats who I want behind center.When Warner is behind center the game is never over till the clock runs out.

We all saw it in many games since Warner has been a CARDINAL.Kurt bleeds RED & WHITE for this team.I'll bet he has more positive memories and fellow teammates here in ARIZONA than he ever had anywhere else.

To hope he screws up so you can get YOUR guy in the game.You my friend are on the darkside.I don't know what to say but good time charlie's are a dime a dozen.I don't ride anyone's jock.Once the team jells this year I'd like to see the future Hall of Famer continue to lead this team to wins they never dreamed of.We just need to bring back some of Haley's old plays.The quick slants the quick outs to Boldin and let him just get the YAC on his own.WE did none of that yesterday.

I think Whiz wants to put his own OC slant on this team and until he gives it up its gonna hurt us all.Go back to what worked.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

Doug - I am not cheering against the Cardinals per se. I just think the worst thing that could happen is that we stick with a mediocre Warner for the duration of the season in the hope of replicating last year. And then we are officially screwed come offseason when its comes time to make a decision on the most important position in sports. Leinarts escalators are going to be an issue.

My point is if the Kurt we have seen this preseason and Game one is the Kurt we have (which even the most ardent optimist would have to think might be the case at this point)then let the wheels come off. None of this heart break crap, teasing us for a half or playing well in spurts and then giving up the killer turnover.

I have seen this Kurt before. It doesn't end well.

We are both fans. But you see things through immediate returns.

I want long term success.

Hopefully Warner defies all common sense and logic and we go on a run. But right now I ain't seeing it. He looks completely different.

 

[az jam]

To hope he screws up so you can get YOUR guy in the game.You my friend are on the darkside.I don't know what to say but good time charlie's are a dime a dozen.I don't ride anyone's jock.Once the team jells this year I'd like to see the future Hall of Famer continue to lead this team to wins they never dreamed of.We just need to bring back some of Haley's old plays.The quick slants the quick outs to Boldin and let him just get the YAC on his own.WE did none of that yesterday.

I think Whiz wants to put his own OC slant on this team and until he gives it up its gonna hurt us all.Go back to what worked.

????? What is that all about. I just wrote what I thought was an objective post that Warner appears to be physically struggling. Sorry but I'm not going to get into any name calling because of a difference of opinion.

 

[Doug]

Doug - I am not cheering against the Cardinals per se. I just think the worst thing that could happen is that we stick with a mediocre Warner for the duration of the season in the hope of replicating last year. And then we are officially screwed come offseason when its comes time to make a decision on the most important position in sports. Leinarts escalators are going to be an issue.

My point is if the Kurt we have seen this preseason and Game one is the Kurt we have (which even the most ardent optimist would have to think might be the case at this point)then let the wheels come off. None of this heart break crap, teasing us for a half or playing well in spurts and then giving up the killer turnover.

I have seen this Kurt before. It doesn't end well.

We are both fans. But you see things through immediate returns.

I want long term success.

Hopefully Warner defies all common sense and logic and we go on a run. But right now I ain't seeing it. He looks completely different.

Great post.I knew two Floridians could'nt be that far apart.I think Whiz is ready to go to plan B in a heartbeat.Won't be the first time for Kurt either. I just don't think Matt can get it done with this same O-Line for the season either.We need some major changes up front.Thought Grimm had a handle on things and would make things better year by year.

We will play much tougher defensive ends and blitzing teams this year.Wait till Levi see's Freeny on Sunday Night.Its gonna look like the Green Bay pre-season game with Gandy all over again.

 

[conraddobler]

Great post.I knew two Floridians could'nt be that far apart.I think Whiz is ready to go to plan B in a heartbeat.Won't be the first time for Kurt either. I just don't think Matt can get it done with this same O-Line for the season either.We need some major changes up front.Thought Grimm had a handle on things and would make things better year by year.

We will play much tougher defensive ends and blitzing teams this year.Wait till Levi see's Freeny on Sunday Night.Its gonna look like the Green Bay pre-season game with Gandy all over again.

It's not the same thing with Matt in there.

Yeah he'll get hit some, no avoiding that behind this line but under center is where you want to be, that way they have to at least respect the run.

Once BW and ML are lined up correctly, not in the gun all the time, the quick run play etc will keep the dogs off Matt.

No one lines up and passes as much as we do out of the gun all day all the time with a creeky old immobile QB.

Matt can and will run a bit, just a bit makes them stay in their lanes, with Warner that is so not a threat that you can come from any angle all day all the time and not worry about a 10 yard killer scamper.

Things change a lot with Matt in there, it's not as good for passing but everything else is better IMO, unless Warner comes out of it soon that's what we'll see, I give it to the bye, if he's not got at least one good Warner game in there it's going to be Matt for a while.