The Suns are a championship outlier, not a template...

[82CardsGrad]

Love the Ayton analysis!

The Whiteboard: The Suns are a championship outlier, not a template

Today on The Whiteboard, unpacking why the Phoenix Suns don't present an obvious template for other rebuilding teams to try and follow.

fansided.com

 

[Chaplin]

Love the Ayton analysis!

The Whiteboard: The Suns are a championship outlier, not a template

Today on The Whiteboard, unpacking why the Phoenix Suns don't present an obvious template for other rebuilding teams to try and follow.

fansided.com

Not until now, they're right. But you better believe we are becoming the new template before the league's eyes.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

Not until now, they're right. But you better believe we are becoming the new template before the league's eyes.

The real template here is depth, defense, and two guards that can trigger the offense

 

[Hoop Head]

Not until now, they're right. But you better believe we are becoming the new template before the league's eyes.

The real template here is depth, defense, and two guards that can trigger the offense

But there isn't really a template to follow. Not like past title teams. Its easy to say defense, depth, dynamic guard play, team first attitudes, etc. But that's much easier to say than copy.

There have been plenty of good teams that can be compared to us from a personnel standpoint but they didn't achieve these results. Its not like Golden State where you want 3 point shooters at all 5 positions, or LeBron teams that build around getting superstars to play with their friends, or the San Antonio teams that were built on ball movement and defense.

This Suns team is special because it has the perfect blend of players that bought into the system and the system is built to get the most out of everyone who buys in.

If there is any template to copy at all, its getting a well like and respected coach who can manage the team, not the way the league has been where the coach is just there for the ride and to be blamed when things go bad. I think we'll see a coaching renaissance of sorts after this year.

 

[Cheesebeef]

But there isn't really a template to follow. Not like past title teams. Its easy to say defense, depth, dynamic guard play, team first attitudes, etc. But that's much easier to say than copy.

There have been plenty of good teams that can be compared to us from a personnel standpoint but they didn't achieve these results. Its not like Golden State where you want 3 point shooters at all 5 positions, or LeBron teams that build around getting superstars to play with their friends, or the San Antonio teams that were built on ball movement and defense.

This Suns team is special because it has the perfect blend of players that bought into the system and the system is built to get the most out of everyone who buys in.

If there is any template to copy at all, its getting a well like and respected coach who can manage the team, not the way the league has been where the coach is just there for the ride and to be blamed when things go bad. I think we'll see a coaching renaissance of sorts after this year.

yeah... it’s tough to follow this template. Closest thing I can think of is we ended up being a lot like that Pistons team that beat the Lakers in the Finals and took the Spurs to 7 the next year. I’m not saying player for player or size wise we were like then but they just had the consummate team and everyone knew and played their roles perfectly. That’s what we have here.

it’s a real hard template to duplicate and probably why we’ll join that Pistons club as the outliers to Super Teams winning most titles. Only other outlier was that Mavs team where Dirk went superhuman and pretty much beat every super team singlehandedly. He beat the Kobe/Pau Lakers, the Durant/Westbrook/Harden Thunder and then the Bron/Wade/Bosh Heat. Man, that really was an absolutely insane playoff run.

 

[JCSunsfan]

It only becomes a template when it has multiple successes. This path to a championship has had multiple successes. Detroit won a championship with a team ball template. So did Toronto. San Antonio won multiple championships with this template.

Now, before I get "its completely different" comments from people who nitpick. Here is the template.

Excellent stable coach.
Balanced roster.
Guards who can distribute and score.
Defensive anchor in the middle who can also make you pay on offense.
Outside and inside threat.
Balanced offense and defense.
High IQ roster, especially among the role players.

NOT a superteam.

 

[Cheesebeef]

It only becomes a template when it has multiple successes. This path to a championship has had multiple successes. Detroit won a championship with a team ball template. So did Toronto. San Antonio won multiple championships with this template.

Now, before I get "its completely different" comments from people who nitpick. Here is the template.

Excellent stable coach.
Balanced roster.
Guards who can distribute and score.
Defensive anchor in the middle who can also make you pay on offense.
Outside and inside threat.
Balanced offense and defense.
High IQ roster, especially among the role players.

NOT a superteam.

Toronto is another good example. To be honest, the first Warriors team that one the title is another one.

the Spurs had a super team on the down low as far as I’m concerned though. Not putting together like today’s but Parker/Ginobli and Funcan were all HOFers.

 

[Hoop Head]

yeah... it’s tough to follow this template. Closest thing I can think of is we ended up being a lot like that Pistons team that beat the Lakers in the Finals and took the Spurs to 7 the next year. I’m not saying player for player or size wise we were like then but they just had the consummate team and everyone knew and played their roles perfectly. That’s what we have here.

it’s a real hard template to duplicate and probably why we’ll join that Pistons club as the outliers to Super Teams winning most titles. Only other outlier was that Mavs team where Dirk went superhuman and pretty much beat every super team singlehandedly. He beat the Kobe/Pau Lakers, the Durant/Westbrook/Harden Thunder and then the Bron/Wade/Bosh Heat. Man, that really was an absolutely insane playoff run.

Yeah both of those teams had great TEAMS. The Pistons were so good defensively also but the Mavs managed to overcome their defensive shortcomings by having Dirk be a basketball god that postseason. They still had good D around him also.

Both of those teams had excellent coaches as well in Larry Brown and Carlisle who got all of their guys to buy in 100%. Monty's doing that here and its caught people by surprise because Brown and Carlisle were considered top coaches before those runs, meanwhile Monty was known as a great guy but so-so coach. He's learned a lot since he was in New Orleans.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Toronto is another good example. To be honest, the first Warriors team that one the title is another one.

the Spurs had a super team on the down low as far as I’m concerned though. Not putting together like today’s but Parker/Ginobli and Funcan were all HOFers.

When it's all done, do you think there is a good chance that Paul, Book, and Ayton will be HOF? Paul--definitely. Book--certainly headed that way. Ayton--maybe. If Booke just maintains his present level of play for an his entire career--he does not have to get better--he will be in the HOF. He can lose it by getting injured, career ending early, something dropping off (like Amare).

Actually, I think Mikal is headed for a Ginobili type of career. The youth of this team is a bit of a wonder. Ten years from now Book, Mikal, Cam, and Deandre will STILL be younger than what CP3 is now.

 

[Cheesebeef]

When it's all done, do you think there is a good chance that Paul, Book, and Ayton will be HOF? Paul--definitely. Book--certainly headed that way. Ayton--maybe. If Booke just maintains his present level of play for an his entire career--he does not have to get better--he will be in the HOF. He can lose it by getting injured, career ending early, something dropping off (like Amare).

i think there’s a great chance they all end up in the hall and people will look back at this title team in a new light. Especially if we come back and kick *** next year.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

When it's all done, do you think there is a good chance that Paul, Book, and Ayton will be HOF? Paul--definitely. Book--certainly headed that way. Ayton--maybe. If Booke just maintains his present level of play for an his entire career--he does not have to get better--he will be in the HOF. He can lose it by getting injured, career ending early, something dropping off (like Amare).

Actually, I think Mikal is headed for a Ginobili type of career. The youth of this team is a bit of a wonder. Ten years from now Book, Mikal, Cam, and Deandre will STILL be younger than what CP3 is now.

That is a thunderously captivating concept. I get that it’s unlikely that four guys stay together for that long, but if they win a championship so young it may be a glue that creates quite a legacy for this squad. It would be amazing to see the transformation of sarver’s reputation going from SSOL to decade of awfulness to decade of prosperity.

 

[jagu]

I think it's impossible to call this team a guaranteed winner for the future but I do like how James Jones has designed this roster and I think he knows what it takes to build a contender. Finding the next Chris Paul is a big task for him 1-2 years down the road.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I think it's impossible to call this team a guaranteed winner for the future but I do like how James Jones has designed this roster and I think he knows what it takes to build a contender. Finding the next Chris Paul is a big task for him 1-2 years down the road.

If the young guys continue to buy in and they all continue to improve they won’t need a Paul level PG. they’ll need to replace him, but it can be a competent PG rather than an all time great. They might not be a dynasty but they’ll be perennially in the mix imo. What young group that wins a championship completely fades from the scene?

 

[jagu]

The one thing you notice with this Suns team is that they are somewhat superstar proof.


Jokic went off on them - they still won easily
George had his big games - they still won
Giannis is having his games - they are still handling it pretty easily

I don't know how it would have been with Leonard and George but I'm confident that the games would have been pretty close and the Suns are a more consistent team than the Clippers.

 

[jagu]

If the young guys continue to buy in and they all continue to improve they won’t need a Paul level PG. they’ll need to replace him, but it can be a competent PG rather than an all time great. They might not be a dynasty but they’ll be perennially in the mix imo. What young group that wins a championship completely fades from the scene?

I think pairing Booker with another elite PG is the ideal scenario for him. That should be their focus. I don't know how the formula works if you downgrade.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I think pairing Booker with another elite PG is the ideal scenario for him. That should be their focus. I don't know how the formula works if you downgrade.

It works if book, Ayton, Bridges and cam continue to get better. You can have fall off with the pg if everyone else gets better. And mind you I’m not talking about going back to the dreck that we’ve had in recent years at pg. I’m just saying we don’t need (though of course it would be great) to have a Paul, Lilliard, curry level guy to continue to be legit contender.

 

[Hoop Head]

I think it's impossible to call this team a guaranteed winner for the future but I do like how James Jones has designed this roster and I think he knows what it takes to build a contender. Finding the next Chris Paul is a big task for him 1-2 years down the road.

That makes me wonder how last season would have played out had Ayton not been suspended. We were good with Rubio, not title contenders but definitely a lower seed playoff team like the Grizzlies, Mavericks, or Portland. With the growth of our guys I think a PG Rubio's level should be the least we can pair with them to remain a playoff team. Who knows how successful they could be though considering no one was able to predict this run, really.

 

[jagu]

That makes me wonder how last season would have played out had Ayton not been suspended. We were good with Rubio, not title contenders but definitely a lower seed playoff team like the Grizzlies, Mavericks, or Portland. With the growth of our guys I think a PG Rubio's level should be the least we can pair with them to remain a playoff team. Who knows how successful they could be though considering no one was able to predict this run, really.

I think it's likely that they won't win next year but that's how it works. It's just not easy to repeat. That said if Booker and Ayton continue to improve it's possible. The Suns were somewhat healthy all year and that's rare too. I won't be too sad. I've waited a long time and if they win this year I'm good for a decade lol.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I think it's likely that they won't win next year but that's how it works. It's just not easy to repeat. That said if Booker and Ayton continue to improve it's possible. The Suns were somewhat healthy all year and that's rare too. I won't be too sad. I've waited a long time and if they win this year I'm good for a decade lol.

same.

 

[Sunburn]

I think the Suns are showing the league an example of what Bruce Lee would call "being water".

There's nothing an opponent can attack, or take away, that the Suns don't have a counter.

Offensively, we have elite scoring at all four levels. I say four instead of three because we are elite from 3, mid range, at the rim, and at the freethrow line. We are elite at moving the ball. When we need crunch time buckets, we have elite iso players.

On the other end, our perimeter defense is elite. Our paint defense, thanks to Ayton, is elite. You can't attack the mid range the way we can. One, other teams don't have the firepower from mid range we do. Two, Ayton's mobility does not allow this kind of exploitation. We switch at an elite level. We play with high defensive iq and intensity. We can play small or big. What's more, we are able to dictate to our opponent whether they can go small or big.

There is no well for the opponent to draw upon.

Mentally, we are unflappable. We are relentless. We never stop grinding. We have a killer instinct.

The opponent is not able to win the mind game.

We've actually witnessed in three consecutive series, our team breaking the mind of our opponent. Lebron quitting, Jokic's ejection, Beverly's ejection.

Amazing for how young we are.

We have an elite coach. On the court and off.

We are as perfectly constructed a team as there is in today's NBA.

We have an elite GM.

Water, my friends.

 

[Proximo]

I think pairing Booker with another elite PG is the ideal scenario for him. That should be their focus. I don't know how the formula works if you downgrade.

The problem is the cap.

I really don't think we can afford to pay CP3, DA, and Book the Max plus 20 mil for Mikal, and still fill out the roster for more than a year or two.

The problem really gets bad in a couple years when replacing CP3 with a younger player near his capability is nearly impossible, because nobody will trade for CP3 at that age for someone nearly as capable.

Only solution is another draft pick miraculously working out, which is what makes me so mad about ******** up the Halliburton pick - because that was our chance to actually have a 5 year window.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

When it's all done, do you think there is a good chance that Paul, Book, and Ayton will be HOF? Paul--definitely. Book--certainly headed that way. Ayton--maybe. If Booke just maintains his present level of play for an his entire career--he does not have to get better--he will be in the HOF. He can lose it by getting injured, career ending early, something dropping off (like Amare).

Actually, I think Mikal is headed for a Ginobili type of career. The youth of this team is a bit of a wonder. Ten years from now Book, Mikal, Cam, and Deandre will STILL be younger than what CP3 is now.

Perkins was on first take declaring Booker a future hall of famer

 

[Chris_Sanders]

I think the Suns are showing the league an example of what Bruce Lee would call "being water".

There's nothing an opponent can attack, or take away, that the Suns don't have a counter.

Offensively, we have elite scoring at all four levels. I say four instead of three because we are elite from 3, mid range, at the rim, and at the freethrow line. We are elite at moving the ball. When we need crunch time buckets, we have elite iso players.

On the other end, our perimeter defense is elite. Our paint defense, thanks to Ayton, is elite. You can't attack the mid range the way we can. One, other teams don't have the firepower from mid range we do. Two, Ayton's mobility does not allow this kind of exploitation. We switch at an elite level. We play with high defensive iq and intensity. We can play small or big. What's more, we are able to dictate to our opponent whether they can go small or big.

There is no well for the opponent to draw upon.

Mentally, we are unflappable. We are relentless. We never stop grinding. We have a killer instinct.

The opponent is not able to win the mind game.

We've actually witnessed in three consecutive series, our team breaking the mind of our opponent. Lebron quitting, Jokic's ejection, Beverly's ejection.

Amazing for how young we are.

We have an elite coach. On the court and off.

We are as perfectly constructed a team as there is in today's NBA.

We have an elite GM.

Water, my friends.

I wish I could like this twice. Also we are an elite screen setting team

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

That makes me wonder how last season would have played out had Ayton not been suspended. We were good with Rubio, not title contenders but definitely a lower seed playoff team like the Grizzlies, Mavericks, or Portland. With the growth of our guys I think a PG Rubio's level should be the least we can pair with them to remain a playoff team. Who knows how successful they could be though considering no one was able to predict this run, really.

I’d agree. Rubio level would be floor for playoffs. Someone a step better - like a one or two trip all star pg (like a Derek Harper or terry porter - can’t think of modern versions) would keep us contenders if the young guys continue to progress. An all time great pg likely makes this squad a potential dynasty if the youth continues to progress.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I think the Suns are showing the league an example of what Bruce Lee would call "being water".

There's nothing an opponent can attack, or take away, that the Suns don't have a counter.

Offensively, we have elite scoring at all four levels. I say four instead of three because we are elite from 3, mid range, at the rim, and at the freethrow line. We are elite at moving the ball. When we need crunch time buckets, we have elite iso players.

On the other end, our perimeter defense is elite. Our paint defense, thanks to Ayton, is elite. You can't attack the mid range the way we can. One, other teams don't have the firepower from mid range we do. Two, Ayton's mobility does not allow this kind of exploitation. We switch at an elite level. We play with high defensive iq and intensity. We can play small or big. What's more, we are able to dictate to our opponent whether they can go small or big.

There is no well for the opponent to draw upon.

Mentally, we are unflappable. We are relentless. We never stop grinding. We have a killer instinct.

The opponent is not able to win the mind game.

We've actually witnessed in three consecutive series, our team breaking the mind of our opponent. Lebron quitting, Jokic's ejection, Beverly's ejection.

Amazing for how young we are.

We have an elite coach. On the court and off.

We are as perfectly constructed a team as there is in today's NBA.

We have an elite GM.

Water, my friends.

Great post. Earlier today I kept thinking no matter how defenses have adapted to us we ooze into whatever crack exists, and there’s always some crack. So yeah, Lee’s water is a great description.