The Suns next big move

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I hate that Ayton is getting all this from the fans. This is what happens when fans severely over-hype someone. The very same fans turn on him the second they realize their expectations were too high. By all objective measures, Ayton is ahead of where a second-year big man should be at the beginning of his second season. Anyone who wasn't a homer (or severely anti Doncic) would have seen that Ayton was a passive player who lacks the motor, drive, motivation, or whatever else we want to call it. He gets to the NBA, plays the same style he played in college and everyone is shocked.

I’m unsure I get what you’re saying here. We should be happy he lacks the motor, drive, motivation, or whatever else we want to call it because that’s what we should’ve expected?

 

[TJ]

If you don’t want to give up Ayton + a pick for KAT that is totally understandable. But still don’t understand how it would be worse than passing on Luka.

You stated that it would be worse than passing on Luka. Which means you feel that trading Ayton for KAT, assuming Ayton goes on to average 25+/12+, is worse than us picking Ayton over Luka.

But then you say it would be worse because we already passed on him and it’s not worth ruminating over? Huh? That’s a different statement.

Fair retort. I guess it would be compounding passing on Luka with getting rid of Ayton and future prospects for KAT. If we keep Ayton and he averages somewhere along the lines of 25/12 with continued progress on defense, then not only did we not have to attach future assets to get to that level of production, it may eliminate the feeling of having made the wrong decision on draft night.

 

[Mainstreet]

Aytons wussy "non physical, non inside" game is already getting to me. I couldn't imagine his game in a playoff atmosphere. I guess 'fortunately' we arent even close to playoffs so seeing his game exposed is a non issue. I just don't know if he will grow out of this. He'll be a good player but not a player to get us to the promised land.

Ayton is not a finished product. He will be better at the end of this season, next season and so forth.

Towns and Booker would be awesome though. No doubt about it in my mind. However, it's hard to see it happening unless Booker puts his foot down. Minimally I think the Wolves would want Ayton, two first round draft picks, filler and something else.

 

[Mainstreet]

I hate that Ayton is getting all this from the fans. This is what happens when fans severely over-hype someone. The very same fans turn on him the second they realize their expectations were too high. By all objective measures, Ayton is ahead of where a second-year big man should be at the beginning of his second season. Anyone who wasn't a homer (or severely anti Doncic) would have seen that Ayton was a passive player who lacks the motor, drive, motivation, or whatever else we want to call it. He gets to the NBA, plays the same style he played in college and everyone is shocked.

I think the talk of trading Ayton is premature. I want to keep Ayton. He has tremendous upside.

However, looking at it from the other side, if the Wolves are willing to trade Towns, the Suns have to be a player because of the Booker factor alone. Wish the Wolves would hang on to Towns at least for another season to see what the Suns have in Ayton.

 

[Mainstreet]

I agree that it would be an overpay to do Ayton + multiple first round picks for Towns. But I would do a KAT for Ayton straight up (and Tyler Johnson for salaries). I’m sure the wolves would want more, but not sure if they would have a better offer. I understand that it is tough to make a trade like this when we don’t know for sure what Ayton becomes. But, at this point, I prefer the known commodity vs the potential of Ayton. Again, I doubt the wolves would do this...unless KAT makes enough noise and there aren’t any better offers.

It's hard to see the the Wolves trading Towns for Ayton and filler. As I mentioned earlier, I think it would take Ayton, filler, a young player and at least two first round picks.

 

[Covert Rain]

I’m unsure I get what you’re saying here. We should be happy he lacks the motor, drive, motivation, or whatever else we want to call it because that’s what we should’ve expected?

What did you expect from a 2nd year player coming back from a 25 game suspension? I am not defending some of the stuff you brought up. It's legit. However, bigger picture.....as of today...as a 2nd year player JUST STARTING THIS SEASON compared to centers.....

#9 in Scoring
#5 in Rebounds
#15 FG%
#7 FT%
#10 Blocks
#10 Assists

That is a guy coming off a rookie season just getting back into it but being in the top 10 in every category but one above. Again, his criticisms are completely legit. I just don't know what people have in their minds in terms of expectations.

As of today he is already a top 10 Center in many categories.

If the Suns had not passed on Luka is anybody as concerned? Not so sure. There are probably about 30 teams in the NBA that would be pretty excited with the above from their second year player.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Ayton is not a finished product. He will be better at the end of this season, next season and so forth.

you say this, but my biggest worry with Ayton is that we saw ZERO progression from Game 1 last year to Game 82. He came in able to sleepwalk through 17/11, playing weak interior defense and that;s exactly where he ended the season. And he's started this season. And that was a pattern from UofA. He came in and left the team as pretty much exactly the same player. There have been no growth from season's beginnings to season's end. Other big men like Davis/Towns etc. weren't nearly as polished coming into the league offensively as Ayton, but if you look at their rookie season stats, you'll see improvements across the board as those seasons went on.

And then you saw a BIG leap in all of their numbers from their rookie seasons to their second year. So far with Ayton in six games, we've seen a regression in scoring, slightly better rebounding, still no work getting to the FT and from what I've seen pretty much the same defense.

That is my worry. Y'all talk about 25/12 like it's part of this upward swing that he's on, but for the overwhelming most part, he still looks exactly like the same "Looks like Tarzan, plays like Jane" who we'll hold on to a really good quarter per game and hope that one day that'll extend to all four.

 

[Covert Rain]

you say this, but my biggest worry with Ayton is that we saw ZERO progression from Game 1 last year to Game 82. He came in able to sleepwalk through 17/11, playing weak interior defense and that;s exactly where he ended the season. And he's started this season. And that was a pattern from UofA. He came in and left the team as pretty much exactly the same player. There have been no growth from season's beginnings to season's end. Other big men like Davis/Towns etc. weren't nearly as polished coming into the league offensively as Ayton, but if you look at their rookie season stats, you'll see improvements across the board as those seasons went on.

And then you saw a BIG leap in all of their numbers from their rookie seasons to their second year. So far with Ayton in six games, we've seen a regression in scoring, slightly better rebounding, still no work getting to the FT and from what I've seen pretty much the same defense.

THIS is a legit concern. One I think many of us have echoed. If he doesn't improve and is a top 10 center today is he a bust? Is he disappointing? Let's assume the worst. He is what he is. He appears to be a top 10 center in multiple categories. I think I would say it's anything but a bust but it probably doesn't justify the #1 draft pick.

It's still way too early to judge him though. Not with the 25 game suspension. Plus, most experts expected him to be a different player in year 3. Do we panic in about 20 games? The end of the season?

P.S. You want to hear something weird? I looked up splits by Home vs Away. Ayton is #2 in the NBA in improved efficiency at that position AT HOME. He drops to #30 away. http://www.hoopsstats.com/basketball/fantasy/nba/trends/20/18/eff/2-1

WTH?!?!?!?!?

 

[SirStefan32]

I’m unsure I get what you’re saying here. We should be happy he lacks the motor, drive, motivation, or whatever else we want to call it because that’s what we should’ve expected?

I am not 100% sure what I am saying either, honestly. I don't seem to be able to articulate it well in my head, let alone type it out. I am just frustrated that we have a young kid who is playing as well as anyone can expect from a kid of his age and size, and 90% of the fans are frustrated with him. Much like you guys, I also wish he had Amare's aggression, for example. I am not happy that he is passive either. I just feel bad that he is as good as he is, but he is also so frustrating to watch because he could be so much better. Now, to me, that's no surprise because every single scouting report said the same thing. I knew he was going to be the way that he is, so I choose not to be overly upset. Most young bigs are just not very good. He does a lot of things well, but most people are giving him all sorts of crap because he is the way everyone reasonable knew he was going to be. I am definitely not saying we should be happy that he is passive, but I guess I am saying that we should have reasonable expectations for him. He rebounds well, he has a very soft touch around the basket, he has a great jumper, he defends the perimeter pretty well, and he is not terrible in one on one situations in the low post on defense either. He likely will never develop the aggression and nastiness, but he is a really young kid who is pretty good considering his size and age.

 

[Phrazbit]

you say this, but my biggest worry with Ayton is that we saw ZERO progression from Game 1 last year to Game 82. He came in able to sleepwalk through 17/11, playing weak interior defense and that;s exactly where he ended the season. And he's started this season. And that was a pattern from UofA. He came in and left the team as pretty much exactly the same player. There have been no growth from season's beginnings to season's end. Other big men like Davis/Towns etc. weren't nearly as polished coming into the league offensively as Ayton, but if you look at their rookie season stats, you'll see improvements across the board as those seasons went on.

And then you saw a BIG leap in all of their numbers from their rookie seasons to their second year. So far with Ayton in six games, we've seen a regression in scoring, slightly better rebounding, still no work getting to the FT and from what I've seen pretty much the same defense.

That is my worry. Y'all talk about 25/12 like it's part of this upward swing that he's on, but for the overwhelming most part, he still looks exactly like the same "Looks like Tarzan, plays like Jane" who we'll hold on to a really good quarter per game and hope that one day that'll extend to all four.

He is significantly better on defense so far this year... but worse offensively. In the short sample size available he's been a monster on defense. The difference in our team defense is staggering, we're giving up over 10 less points per 100 possessions when Ayton is on the court. Again... it is a small sample size, but we're giving up less points per possession when Ayton is in the game than the Bucks do as a team... with their league best defense.

I am very disappointed in his offense though, he is more in love with lazy jumpers than ever. Last year, despite not shooting many free throws, he was among the league leaders in true shooting percentage, so far this year his true shooting numbers are grotesque, well below even the average big.

I'm sure that, as he gets a more quantifiable amount of PT, we will see some regression to the norm on both ends of his stat sheet.

But so far at least, he is not the player he was last year, he is dramatically different.

 

[SirStefan32]

THIS is a legit concern. One I think many of us have echoed. If he doesn't improve and is a top 10 center today is he a bust? Is he disappointing? Let's assume the worst. He is what he is. He appears to be a top 10 center in multiple categories. I think I would say it's anything but a bust but it probably doesn't justify the #1 draft pick.

It's still way too early to judge him though. Not with the 25 game suspension. Plus, most experts expected him to be a different player in year 3. Do we panic in about 20 games? The end of the season?

I don't think we panic. We just have to wait and see how he develops.

 

[Covert Rain]

He is significantly better on defense so far this year... but worse offensively. In the short sample size available he's been a monster on defense. The difference in our team defense is staggering, we're giving up over 10 less points per 100 possessions when Ayton is on the court. Again... it is a small sample size, but we're giving up less points per possession when Ayton is in the game than the Bucks do as a team... with their league best defense.

I am very disappointed in his offense though, he is more in love with lazy jumpers than ever. Last year, despite not shooting many free throws, he was among the league leaders in true shooting percentage, so far this year his true shooting numbers are grotesque, well below even the average big.

I'm sure that, as he gets a more quantifiable amount of PT, we will see some regression to the norm on both ends of his stat sheet.

But so far at least, he is not the player he was last year, he is dramatically different.

I just looked it up. With Ayton on the floor his def diff% is -15.5%. That means he is disruptive.

 

[Mainstreet]

you say this, but my biggest worry with Ayton is that we saw ZERO progression from Game 1 last year to Game 82. He came in able to sleepwalk through 17/11, playing weak interior defense and that;s exactly where he ended the season. And he's started this season. And that was a pattern from UofA. He came in and left the team as pretty much exactly the same player. There have been no growth from season's beginnings to season's end. Other big men like Davis/Towns etc. weren't nearly as polished coming into the league offensively as Ayton, but if you look at their rookie season stats, you'll see improvements across the board as those seasons went on.

And then you saw a BIG leap in all of their numbers from their rookie seasons to their second year. So far with Ayton in six games, we've seen a regression in scoring, slightly better rebounding, still no work getting to the FT and from what I've seen pretty much the same defense.

That is my worry. Y'all talk about 25/12 like it's part of this upward swing that he's on, but for the overwhelming most part, he still looks exactly like the same "Looks like Tarzan, plays like Jane" who we'll hold on to a really good quarter per game and hope that one day that'll extend to all four.

Ayton has only played 6 games this season. He has a lot of room for improvement but few NBA players are a finished product at this point in their careers.

I think Ayton had a decent rookie season so I'm not sure why fans and the media are pushing the panic button.

The problem may be is that Ayton's game is not advanced as many envisioned at this point in his career. However, he should always be a scorer and rebounder. He alters lots of shots so I think his presence on defense will improve.

 

[1Sun]

Ayton has only played 6 games this season. He has a lot of room for improvement but few NBA players are a finished product at this point in their careers.

I think Ayton had a decent rookie season so I'm not sure why fans and the media are pushing the panic button.

The problem may be is that Ayton's game is not advanced as many envisioned at this point in his career. However, he should always be a scorer and rebounder. He alters lots of shots so I think his presence on defense will improve.

A lot will depend on the extent to which he is actually developed. Not an easy task with the coach pushing for improvement and evolution while the GM at the same time says "you just be you"...

 

[pokerface]

Ayton has skills...no question there. His passive game is just a total turnoff. I know we can never expect his aggression to be Amare level because that was a ten...but give me a six or seven would ya? Not a three!!!

It's like yeah give him time but I dont know what will turn the fire on in this guy. Yes hes producing...but we are still LOSING. Get some backbone and get ticked off...maybe your defense will get up to snuff...center?? He plays like a small forward.

 

[CRC83]

It's hard to see the the Wolves trading Towns for Ayton and filler. As I mentioned earlier, I think it would take Ayton, filler, a young player and at least two first round picks.

You’re probably right. And in that case, I wouldn’t want the suns to make the trade.

 

[Superbone]

You’re probably right. And in that case, I wouldn’t want the suns to make the trade.

I think you do it if you can get somebody with passion for the game and not somebody that's just trying to make it to the next contract.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Ayton is not a finished product. He will be better at the end of this season, next season and so forth.

Towns and Booker would be awesome though. No doubt about it in my mind. However, it's hard to see it happening unless Booker puts his foot down. Minimally I think the Wolves would want Ayton, two first round draft picks, filler and something else.

What they would want and what they would get are two different things. I don’t think any other team could offer anything as singularly enticing as Ayton. Particularly not to mollify fans. So I don’t think the suns would have to fork over all that much with Ayton. Maybe two highly protected 1sts.

 

[CRC83]

I think you do it if you can get somebody with passion for the game and not somebody that's just trying to make it to the next contract.

Depends on what exactly we would have to give up. Now, if he doesn’t show more passion, aggressiveness and we don’t see improvement over the rest of the year...Yeah, that decision gets easier to make.

 

[Mainstreet]

What they would want and what they would get are two different things. I don’t think any other team could offer anything as singularly enticing as Ayton. Particularly not to mollify fans. So I don’t think the suns would have to fork over all that much with Ayton. Maybe two highly protected 1sts.

I'm only saying what I think the Timberwolves would want for Towns. IMO, other teams would throw out ridiculous amounts of picks and talent for him.

 

[pokerface]

I'm only saying what I think the Timberwolves would want for Towns. IMO, other teams would throw out ridiculous amounts of picks and talent for him.

Yeah but could they offer a #1 pick on a rookie contract?

 

[Mainstreet]

Yeah but could they offer a #1 pick on a rookie contract?

Let's keep Ayton and add a defensive 4/5.

 

[Suns_fan69]

Let's keep Ayton and add a defensive 4/5.

There is NO WAY this is happening, but I'd love to get Al Horford (at least the Al Horford I remember, I believe his play is down this year). Can play both 4 and 5, spaces the floor on offense, rock-solid on defense.

 

[Mainstreet]

There is NO WAY this is happening, but I'd love to get Al Horford (at least the Al Horford I remember, I believe his play is down this year). Can play both 4 and 5, spaces the floor on offense, rock-solid on defense.

A player like Horford would be nice but I'd settle for an athletic rim protector.

 

[BC867]

You just cannot give up on big men this early. You can't. Ayton will be a serviceable NBA player no matter what happens. Throwing away a #1 pick because he does not meet the lofty expectations of the first overall pick when he is only 6 games into his second season his just foolishness.

You're citing his being suspended as an alibi?

No, it is part of the problem.