The Value of European Players

[ASUCHRIS]

In my opinion, there will be a major shift away from the white European player in the draft and in free agency this year. Why? Well, as you can see in these playoffs, and in the past three or four years, the two best Euros, Dirk and Peja have done very little to lead their teams to the next round. While everyone likes to laud their knowledge of the fundimentals and their passing skills, basically none of these guys can guard anyone.

Beyond this, the only white European players who are getting any playing time in the Finals are Medvedenko and Okur, who are just embarassing themselves on a consistent basis out there.

I think since the NBA can be a copycat league like the NFL, you will have more teams attempting to replicate the success of a championship team before. (This is of course a leap of faith) Either way, I think we will see teams try to draft and build around more athletic players who can play defense.

On another note, was anyone else impressed by Elden Campbell? I know Marbury really wanted him this offseason. Taking the time machine back, it would be interesting to see the Suns group, at the beginning of this season, healthy and with Elden Campbell. Oh well, guess we have to wait and hope for Kobe....

 

[elindholm]

On another note, was anyone else impressed by Elden Campbell?

I was. He played well in spurts a couple of years ago, so the main question was whether he was too old and creaky to be effective. The adrenalin of playing in the finals was probably enough to get him going, however.

I remembered last night that Campbell was O'Neal's Laker teammate for a few years. What I didn't remember was that, in the 96-97 lineup, they were both starters! Did Campbell have the agility to play PF then (I guess he must have)? I have no memory of the Lakers that season -- were their twin towers effective? It looks like they put up good numbers, at least.

Anyway, that may have inspired Campbell as well. O'Neal sort of pushed him out the door, and now he has a chance to come back and maybe, just maybe, help prevent The Big Apathy from winning another ring.

 

[samtheman]

On another note, was anyone else impressed by Elden Campbell? I know Marbury really wanted him this offseason. Taking the time machine back, it would be interesting to see the Suns group, at the beginning of this season, healthy and with Elden Campbell. Oh well, guess we have to wait and hope for Kobe....

I was impressed. That one fast breakk with the dunk at the end was pretty good. He also was decent at guarding Shaq.

I also was impressed by Lindsey Hunter. He had so much effort.

I don't think the NBA will stop drafting European's with potential.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

any responses to my original point? (the insight on Campbell is appreciated, but was a bit of an afterthought)

 

[George O'Brien]

I don't think the relative ineffectiveness of Dirk and Peja in the playoffs will be a factor, but the slow start by Darko might effect the lottery. Teams seem to overreact to trends.

Two years ago teams were scared off from taking Amare because the previous class of HS big men was so ineffective. After Amare and LeBron, HS players are "hot" again.

Last year's push for big Euros came after the surprisingly strong development of Paul Gasol. But after Darko, Zarko, and Lampe had slow starts (for different reasons), I expect the Euros will drop further than some mock drafts would have you expect.

In Eric's polls, we have Biedrins at #5 and Pavel at #8. I think both will fall further than that due to the Darko factor.

 

[capologist]

The problem with Milicic and Lampe may simply be that they were the two youngest players in the league. When you draft a Euroteen, you have to be prepared to wait. Nowitzki didn’t have a very impressive rookie season, either.

FWIW, other players drafted out of foreign leagues:

1989  26  Vlade Divac              Yugoslavia
      40  Dino Radja               Croatia

1990  29  Toni Kukoc               Yugoslavia
      52  Stefano Rusconi          Italy

1991  51  Zan Tabak                Yugoslavia

1992  43  Sasha Danilovic          Yugoslavia

1993  30  Gheorghe Muresan         Romania
      50  Marcelo Nicola           Argentina

1994  36  Andrei Fetisov           Russia
      54  Zeljko Rebraca           Yugoslavia

1995  31  Dragan Tarlac            Greece
      51  Dejan Bodiroga           Italy
      54  Eurelejus Zukaukas       Lithuania

1996  14  Pedrag Stojakovic        Greece
      20  Zydrunas Ilgauskas       Lithuania
      23  Efthmis Rentzia          Greece (?)
      25  Martin Muursepp          Estonia
      28  Priest Lauderdale        Greece (?)

1997  18  Chris Anstey             Australia
      34  Marko Milic              Smelt Olimpia-Slovenia
      49  Pedrag Drobnjak          Yugoslavia
      50  Alain Digbeau            France
      56  Ben Pepper               Australia
      58  Roberto Duena            Barcelona

1998   9  Dirk Nowitzki            Germany
      17  Radoslav Nesterovic      Slovenia
      18  Mirsad Turkcan           Turkey
      27  Vladimir Stepanija       Georgia
      35  Bruno Sundov             Croatia

1999  15  Frederick Weis           France
      24  Andrei Kirilenko         Russia
      36  Wang Zhi-Zhi             China
      40  Gordon Giricek           Croatia
      57  Emmanuel Ginobili        Italy

2000  16  Hidayet Turkoglu         Turkey
      24  Dalibor Bagaric          Croatia
      25  Iakovos Tsakalidis       Greece
      27  Primoz Brezec            Slovenia
      42  Olumide Oyedeji          Nigeria
      47  Josip Sesar              Croatia
      51  Igor Rakocevic           Yugoslavia

2001   3  Pau Gasol                Spain
      12  Vladimir Radmanovic      Yugoslavia
      24  Raul Lopez               Spain
      28  Tony Parker              France
      38  Mehmet Okur              Turkey
      48  Antonis Fotsis           Greece
      56  Robertas Javtokas        Lithuania

2002   1  Yao Ming                 China
       5  Nickoloz Tskitishvili    Georgia
       7  Maybyner Hilario         Brazil
      15  Bostjan Nachbar          Slovenia
      16  Jiri Welsh               Czech Republic
      24  Nenad Krstic             Yugoslavia
      36  Milos Vujanic            Yugoslavia
      40  Juan Carlos Navarro      Spain
      41  Mario Kasun              Croatia
      49  Peter Fehse              Germany
      51  Federico Kammerichs      Argentina
      55  Mladen Sekularac         Yugoslavia
      56  Luis Scola               Argentina

2003   2  Darko Milicic            Serbia
      11  Mickael Pietrus          France
      17  Zarko Cabarkapa          Serbia
      19  Aleksandar Pavlovic      Yugoslavia
      21  Boris Diaw-Riffiod       France
      22  Zoran Planinic           Croatia
      25  Carlos Delfino           Argentina
      28  Leandro Barbosa          Brazil
      30  Maciej Lampe             Poland
      34  Sofoklis Schortsianitis  Greece
      35  Szymon Szewczyk          Germany
      39  Slavko Vranes            Yugoslavia
      42  Zaur Pachulia            Turkey
      44  Malick Badiane           Germany
      46  Sani Becirovic           Slovenia
      50  Paccelis Morlende        France
      52  Remon Van De Hare        Holland
      54  Nedzad Sinanovic         Bosnia
      57  Xue Yuyang               China
      58  Andreas Glyniadakis      Greece

 

[pokerface]

Yeah Peja, Dirk, Parker and the rest of them Euro bums doesnt deserve any respect. After seeing the likes of them I'm sure the scouts will remember that and be much wiser sticking with the Yanks and their superior D. I mean who would want another Dirk or Peja on their squad??...YUCK!!!

 

[playstation]

coolest names for a starting lineup:

pg- marko (milic)
sg- zarko (cabarkapa)
sf- darko (milicic)
pf- pau (gasol)
c- yao (ming)

 

[JCSunsfan]

coolest names for a starting lineup:

pg- marko (milic)
sg- zarko (cabarkapa)
sf- darko (milicic)

The 3 lost Marx Bros.

 

[pokerface]

just wondering...

So all those years of Garnett not making the second round...is that some kind of indictment against USA or him?

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

So all those years of Garnett not making the second round...is that some kind of indictment against USA or him?

Garnett's play was never the reason for his team not moving on.

The point is, all of the European superstars falter in the playoffs to this point. Their play is usually less effective than it is in the regular season. Not just their defense either, when the contact picks up in the playoffs, their offense tends to suffer as well.

It has nothing to do with their teams, but their individual performance.

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

My thought on this subject is that the best American players are far superior to the best international players. I do not think it will have an impact on the building of a team, since eventually the rest of the world SHOULD catch up.

However, I think it will end the Euro "craze" that happened the last few years. The numbers of European players has gotton much higher each year. For the next 5 years or so, I think we will see a normal rate of growth instead.

BTW,

I think that Dirk is overrated. His defense is horrible, plain and simple. A few years ago, people tried claiming he was a top 5 player, at this point I think he is near the bottom of the top ten. (Same thing applies to Paul Pierce by the way)

 

[pokerface]

The whole point of this thread is meaningless. What are we supposed to do...not draft white guys from europe? We wouldnt want Dirk or Peja on the Suns?

 

[PhxGametime]

I would rather have Amare Stoudemire and Shawn Marion than those 2 though...

 

[pokerface]

I would rather have Amare Stoudemire and Shawn Marion than those 2 though...

Thats not the point and you know it....Depending on certain teams and their needs they'd consider euros either as starters or bench players. Every player needs to be considered for what they bring to the table.

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

My interpretation of the intial question was whether the league as a whole was about ready to scale down their Euro craze.

It wasn't whether European players are good for their teams.

It wasn't whether we would turn down Dirk or Pedja.

It was if the obsession with European players is coming back to Earth. Personally, I think so.

 

[pokerface]

The international trend as well as the highschool trend has only increased...not decreased. Teams want to be the first in the door on the next new talent...no matter where it comes from.


Teams that exclude whole continents on stereotyping players will be left behind. I'm glad the Suns arnt one of them!

 

[Joe Mama]

Gasol on the averaged 5 rebounds per game in four playoff games against the San Antonio Spurs, but he also averaged 18.5 points on 57% shooting. That doesn't sound bad to me for a guy in his first playoff appearance going against Tim Duncan.

Ginobili struggled in the San Antonio Spurs' first-round sweep of the grizzlies, but against the Lakers he had a nice series. He averaged 14.7 points on 48.4% shooting, 6.2 rebounds, and 3.2 assists in those 6 games. I would say that's pretty good coming off the bench.

The league is full of players who fall apart during the playoffs. I still think the Phoenix Suns have to go with the best player available. They do need some strong defenders, so perhaps that will shift their attention from some of these European players.

BTW Graham, are you suggesting that Paul Pierce is a Dirk Nowitzki caliber defender, or just that he has slipped in your rankings of NBA players?

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

I am just saying he has slipped liked Dirk has in rankings. Those are two players who were routinely called top 5 talents, but havent been mentioned with that regard for the past year or two.

 

[George O'Brien]

I'd like to thank Capologist for the list. It is very interesting.

The hypothesis that European trained players wilt under physical pressure is interesting, but I'm not sure how to evaluate such a claim. Since only four teams get beyond the second round each year, this means that there are 25 teams of made up of pathetic losers. Some of them have European trained players.

Toni Kukoc played 7 years with the Bulls and averaged close to 30 minutes a game for them during their champship runs. I don't remember, did he wilt?

Last year the Spurs won the championship with two foreign trained players in Ginobili and Parker. They did not do as well againt the Lakers this year, but they do have rings and take away Fisher's miracle shot, might be in the finals this year.

I think the bottom line is that each player is different. European players get more training in fundimentals but lack the kind of big city playground experience that many American players have. (No one is around to call fouls on the playgrounds). Neither background is ideal for the NBA, which is why scouting is such a challenge.

 

[Dylan]

I think one of the reasons the NBA is enamored with the Euros is height. They add a lot of height, and if you are gonna make a mistake, they will make it with height.

The Euro guards aren't making THAT big of an impact in drafts. It is the height.

They are also coming over soo young. If they stayed over there till they were a little older, they would probably have more impact in the league.

But, it seems to always been the case that they don't/can't play that much defense. If they start really concentrating on that, their value and impact may go up. If they start falling in the draft, they may start working on D.

 

[George O'Brien]

I think one of the reasons the NBA is enamored with the Euros is height. They add a lot of height, and if you are gonna make a mistake, they will make it with height.

The Euro guards aren't making THAT big of an impact in drafts. It is the height.

They are also coming over soo young. If they stayed over there till they were a little older, they would probably have more impact in the league.

But, it seems to always been the case that they don't/can't play that much defense. If they start really concentrating on that, their value and impact may go up. If they start falling in the draft, they may start working on D.

Actually the "no defense" tag does not apply across the board. Andrei Kirilenko made the all star team primarily due to his defense. Rookie Mickael Pietrus started seeing a lot of minutes late in the season for GS primarily due to his defense and the same was true of Boris Diaw with Atlanta.

But it has been a problem with the Euro bigs. Sabonis is the only one that was good on defense although Divac has had his moments. In this year's draft, Biedrins is the only Euro big known more his defense than his scoring - which is one of the reasons he is considered more "NBA ready" than the others.

 

[Errntknght]

I certainly expect the Euro craze will drop off, but more in terms of the number taken in the second round than in the first round. I don't think we'll ever go back to the days where you could draft an outstanding Euro with a second round pick and let him sit for a couple of years - too many teams are scouting Europe for that to happen.

I do think we'll see teams more concerned about the Euro's defense - I know I haven't wanted one for some time who was known as a weak defender in Europe. The same thing goes for guys that shy away from contact. Both types are virtually useless in the playoffs so there is just no point in having them on your team. To a considerable extent I put bigs who are predominantly perimeter scorers in that same category - come the pressure of the playoffs long shooters suffer more than shorter range ones. Someone like Vlade who gives you good passing from the high post along with his distance scoring is fine but if the guy is just a shooter, forget it. I suppose I'd take Peja if someone gave him to me but I sure wouldn't structure my offense around his long range shooting - as the Kings did this year to their eventual dismay.

 

[George O'Brien]

I certainly expect the Euro craze will drop off, but more in terms of the number taken in the second round than in the first round. I don't think we'll ever go back to the days where you could draft an outstanding Euro with a second round pick and let him sit for a couple of years - too many teams are scouting Europe for that to happen.

I do think we'll see teams more concerned about the Euro's defense - I know I haven't wanted one for some time who was known as a weak defender in Europe. The same thing goes for guys that shy away from contact. Both types are virtually useless in the playoffs so there is just no point in having them on your team. To a considerable extent I put bigs who are predominantly perimeter scorers in that same category - come the pressure of the playoffs long shooters suffer more than shorter range ones. Someone like Vlade who gives you good passing from the high post along with his distance scoring is fine but if the guy is just a shooter, forget it. I suppose I'd take Peja if someone gave him to me but I sure wouldn't structure my offense around his long range shooting - as the Kings did this year to their eventual dismay.

You've summarized why I am so opposed to the Suns taking MA or Pavel.

 

[pokerface]

Ok granted a lot of Euros are weak on defense but a lot of them are offensive threats to counter that. Seems to me that scorers are more valued in the league though...


I think the person that started this thread wants us turned off from Euros in this years draft...so what are the alternatives? Highschoolers?