Thinking About Kerr

[Cheesebeef]

I already have said it repeatedly. We had the best record in the west at the time and we went through a large adjustment period and our record reflected it.

yeah, you've said that, but you keep ignoring this, so I guess I have to ask in big letters. SINCE WE STRUGGLED PLAYING AGAINST THE WEST AND THE MAJORITY OF OUR GAMES IN THE SECOND HALF OF THE SEASON WAS AGAINST THE WEST THAT WE STRUGGLED AGAINST, WHY DO YOU THINK WE WOULDN'T CONTINUE STRUGGLING AGAINST THE WEST?

With Marion our longest losing streak of the season was 2 games and that happened 1 time. I would expect we would see a similiar pattern.

why? our schedule was backloaded against the Western Conference who we struggled with. So you would expect one pattern to continue, but you wouldn't expect the pattern of us struggling against the West to continue? Why would one pattern continue as opposed to the other?

While it is nice revisionist history to say that we wouldn't beat San Antonio with Marion that is exactly what we had already done once. Conversely we hadn't lost to Denver in 2 years with Marion but we lost both games with Shaq.

yeah, we barely beat them completely healthy without Tony Parker. Then, they beat us without Parker. It's also just flat out WRONG history to say a) we lost both games with Shaq (when we split with them with Shaq) and we hadn't lost to Denver in 2 years when they kicked the crap out of us by 24 last year in one of the three games we played them.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

Without Tony Parker.

It's pretty easy to read through the difference of opinion here. Guys like Chris would rather have the security blanket of fifty win seasons and cross his fingers that everything that needs to go right in the playoffs goes that way and we win a title. The rest of us (those whose ONLY wish is seeing a parade in Phoenix) care not about anything but winning in the playoffs.

So, if this team is better equipped for the playoffs as you said on this thread it is then the trade must be a success if you only value rings over all else.

Please go back and actually read my posts. I know you were all in a hurry to jump up and say something like the above but it is factually incorrect.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Wow I did some in depth digging on the Suns schedule with Shaq and I am more convinced now. We can say that Shaq helps us against the "playoff teams" but in reality our record against playoff teams with Shaq is 7-10. That's a 41% winning percentage.

18-18 v the West with Marion.
13-3 v. The West with Shaq.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

Really Cheese? All Caps?

I did my research which you could have done if you took the time instead of posting off emotion. 7-10 against playoff teams is nothing to toot our horn about in the Shaq era.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Please go back and actually read my posts. I know you were all in a hurry to jump up and say something like the above but it is factually incorrect.

factually incorrect like we never lost to Denver in the last two years with Marion and that we lost to them twice with Shaq?

 

[Chris_Sanders]

18-18 v the West with Marion.
13-3 v. The West with Shaq.

We beat up the same teams in the west with Shaq as we have with Marion.

Out of that 13-3 is an abundance of non playoff teams that we would have beaten anyway.

We have a 40% win percentage against western conference playoff teams...aka the "hard part of the schedule that Marion would have cost us on"

 

[Cheesebeef]

Really Cheese? All Caps?

I did my research which you could have done if you took the time instead of posting off emotion. 7-10 against playoff teams is nothing to toot our horn about in the Shaq era.

it's not emotion. You're ignoring the question, so I made it stand out. You still haven't answered.

So, one more, no caps: If we struggled with the West before the trade, why do you think would we have played better all of a sudden for no reason (which is what we would have had to do in order to have a better record)? Can you just answer that question for me?

 

[Chris_Sanders]

factually incorrect like we never lost to Denver in the last two years with Marion and that we lost to them twice with Shaq?

Wed March 05 Denver-L
Tuesday April 01 Denver-L

Sorry Cheese.

 

[Cheesebeef]

We beat up the same teams in the west with Shaq as we have with Marion.

really? I didn't see us beating up GS with Marion. I didn't see us beating up SA with Marion.

And did you really see us beating up the Celtics with Marion?

Out of that 13-3 is an abundance of non playoff teams that we would have beaten anyway.

And out of those playoff teams are four definite losses that we would have lost anyway (Boston/Detroit twice).

 

[Chris_Sanders]

it's not emotion. You're ignoring the question, so I made it stand out. You still haven't answered.

So, one more, no caps: If we struggled with the West before the trade, why do you think would we have played better all of a sudden for no reason (which is what we would have had to do in order to have a better record)? Can you just answer that question for me?

I have already answered it repeatedly. You may not like, agree, or accept my answer but you seriously need to chill out.

 

[cly2tw]

Suppose we hadn't made the trade and ended up #1 seed. Let's further assume we get past Denver easily. But could we get past Utah/Spurs in the 2nd round or Lakers/NO in the WCF with Marion/Banks instead of Shaq?

 

[Chris_Sanders]

really? I didn't see us beating up GS with Marion. I didn't see us beating up SA with Marion.

Mon Dec 17 @San Antonio-W

Sorry again Cheese. You are correct about Golden State though.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Wed March 05 Denver-L
Tuesday April 01 Denver-L

Sorry Cheese.

sorry about what? Ignoring this game:

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/boxscore;_ylt=ArouaGrZ4Lk2GIzyAqnWoFWkvLYF?gid=2008033121

 

[Chris_Sanders]

Suppose we hadn't made the trade and ended up #1 seed. Let's further assume we get past Denver easily. But could we get past Utah/Spurs in the 2nd round or Lakers/NO in the WCF with Marion/Banks instead of Shaq?

For the love of pete don't any of you read stuff earlier in the thread?

I already said that I don't believe we would get past the second round with Marion. This is why I don't consider the trade a success if we do nothing but end up with a lateral move (aka not getting past the second round).

 

[Cheesebeef]

Mon Dec 17 @San Antonio-W

Sorry again Cheese. You are correct about Golden State though.

already noted that they didn't have Parker. if you're using that game as proof that we wouldn't have likely lost the next two when they were completely healthy (especially after losing a home game to a Parker-less squad) I don't know what to tell you.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

sorry about what? Ignoring this game:

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/boxscore;_ylt=ArouaGrZ4Lk2GIzyAqnWoFWkvLYF?gid=2008033121

No Cheese, I said we lost to Denver twice with Shaq which we did. Instead of trying to trap me you could have just said "Well we won once", which I already know.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I have already answered it repeatedly. You may not like, agree, or accept my answer but you seriously need to chill out.

I need to "chill out'? People can't ask questions anymore? I'd really like to know why you think the trend of us struggling against the West would magically change itself. I haven't been on the board lately so I might have missed it and am really interested why you think that.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

already noted that they didn't have Parker. if you're using that game as proof that we wouldn't have likely lost the next two when they were completely healthy (especially after losing a home game to a Parker-less squad) I don't know what to tell you.

They weren't completely healthy. Ginobili was hurt virtually the entire game last time. Same situation with Marion yes I believe they win that game.

Again I will go by the assumption that the Suns would have beaten up on the same cupcakes they did, probably lost a couple more games to the big boys, which would have ended them up with the top seed in the west.

 

[MaoTosiFanClub]

Wow I did some in depth digging on the Suns schedule with Shaq and I am more convinced now. We can say that Shaq helps us against the "playoff teams" but in reality our record against playoff teams with Shaq is 7-10. That's a 41% winning percentage.

What about the 5-7 we had against Western Conference playoff teams with Marion (four of which wins came respectively when our opponents were without Andrew Bynum, Pau Gasol, Tracy McGrady, Mehmet Okur, and Tony Parker)? What does that winning percentage equal out to?

Oh yeah - somewhere around 4o%.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Conversely we hadn't lost to Denver in 2 years with Marion but we lost both games with Shaq.

forgive me if I'm wrong here, but doesn't "both" imply there are only two and they were only losses? What am I missing here?

 

[Chris_Sanders]

I need to "chill out'? People can't ask questions anymore? I'd really like to know why you think the trend of us struggling against the West would magically change itself. I haven't been on the board lately so I might have missed it and am really interested why you think that.

I haven't said that. We had a 3 game lead in the west before the Shaq trade. That vanished due to an adjustment period with Shaq that wouldn't have happened with Marion.

We likely would have continued winning at about the same percentage against the big boys as we have now.

This equals a better regular season record but a worse playoff team.

 

[Cheesebeef]

They weren't completely healthy. Ginobili was hurt virtually the entire game last time. Same situation with Marion yes I believe they win that game.

Again I will go by the assumption that the Suns would have beaten up on the same cupcakes they did, probably lost a couple more games to the big boys, which would have ended them up with the top seed in the west.

even though there were less cupcakes in the second half of the season than there were in the first?

 

[Chris_Sanders]

What about the 5-7 we were with Marion against Western Conference playoff teams with Marion (four of which came respectively when our opponents were without Andrew Bynum, Pau Gasol, Tracy McGrady, Mehmet Okur, and Tony Parker)? What does that winning percentage equal out to?

Oh yeah - somewhere around 4o%.

Yeah I already said that. You guys are running in circles here.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

I need to "chill out'? People can't ask questions anymore? I'd really like to know why you think the trend of us struggling against the West would magically change itself. I haven't been on the board lately so I might have missed it and am really interested why you think that.

Cheesebeef, badgering people may fly in court but it doesn't on here. This isn't a trial and that is why I told you to chill out. Asking me the same question repeatedly and ignoring my answer repeatedly is why you need to chill out. Especially when you resorted to screaming.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I haven't said that. We had a 3 game lead in the west before the Shaq trade. That vanished due to an adjustment period with Shaq that wouldn't have happened with Marion.

We likely would have continued winning at about the same percentage against the big boys as we have now.

This equals a better regular season record but a worse playoff team.

yes, but our schedule was tougher, meaning more games against the big boys, meaning more losses against the big boys... eh, forget it. You can't even admit you were wrong about saying we only played Denver twice (which is right there posted as fact), I don't expect you to admit you're wrong about this.