Thinking About Shaq

[Irish]

Shaq is one of the greatest offensive players in NBA history, but I get the impression his defense has generally been underrated. Most people think his best years were behind him when he was traded to the Heat, but his impact on the team's defense is interesting. Here is the opponent's shooting for the Heat

2003-04 opponents shot 42.8% (Heat shot 42.5%)
2004-05 opponents shot 42.7% (Heat shot 48.0%) Shaq joined their team - played 2492 minutes)
2005-06 opponents shot 44.0% (Heat shot 47.8%) Shaq played 1181 minutes - came back and led them to the title
2006-07 opponents shot 44.4% (Heat shot 46.4%) Shaq played only 1134 minutes
2007-08 opponents shot 46.8% (Heat shot 44.3%) Shq played 947 minutes before the trade

After joining the Suns, Shaq played 803 minutes.

Losing Shaq changed the Lakers, opponents shot

1995-96 45.8%
1996-97 44.1% First year with Shaq
1997-98 43.9%
1998-99 44.1%
1999-00 41.6%
2000-01 43.8%
2001-02 42.4%
2002-03 44.3%
2003-04 44.0% Last year Shaq was with the Lakers
2004-05 45.3%
2005-06 45.0%
2006-07 46.1%
2007-08 44.5%

The Lakers have still have not been able to reduce opponent's shooting to what Shaq's teams did.

For the Suns, a lot will depend on the training staff and a lot will depend on changing the defensive scheme for handling the pick and roll. But if he stays healthy and motivated, there is a reasonable chance that Shaq will help the Suns' defense more than many seem to expect. There is no reason to think he'll be any less effective than he was in 2005-06 when the Heat won the title.

 

[D-Dogg]

I'll be the first to admit that Shaq had a much better impact on the Suns that I anticipated. The Suns adjusted to him but he adjusted to them as well. I thought it was a bust or die trade, but it wasn't as bad as I thought. I stand corrected.

 

[D-Dogg]

There is no reason to think he'll be any less effective than he was in 2005-06 when the Heat won the title.

That I'll disagree with...he's older now, and will never get back in that good of shape...i was mad when he got in great shape after pigging out with the Lakers late. He's in better shape still, but he's on the decline and I doubt he ever gets back to 05-06...but if the Suns use him correctly, he won't need to to be in top shape to be effective.

 

[Andrew]

His defense is way under appreciated.

 

[Shzm13]

His defense is way under appreciated.

Everything but his PnR defense was.

That made it too easy for crappy players to get around him if he stood 3ft away from the rim.




But that was where Amare was supposed to step in and actually try himself. Hopefully we get Kurt Rambis or Avery Johnson so they can beat it into his head that he needs to play D

 

[Andrew]

I have seen him block a jumper from a 2 guard, run the fastbreak do a fancy dribble and lay it up...no not in an All-Star game, a playoff game...

 

[Irish]

Everything but his PnR defense was.

That made it too easy for crappy players to get around him if he stood 3ft away from the rim.

But that was where Amare was supposed to step in and actually try himself. Hopefully we get Kurt Rambis or Avery Johnson so they can beat it into his head that he needs to play D

Or Paul Silas perhaps?

Pick and roll defense is more than just effort. The defensive scheme has to designed to deal with the physical abilities of the players. Lots of teams with slower inside guys figure out how to defend the pick and roll, which means they don't put their biggest guy on a guard.

During the Spur series, I got very frustrated with how D'Antoni never switched to a matchup zone dispite how ineffective their help man scheme was. Matchup zone leaves the mid range open, but takes away the layups and three point shots.

 

[Maligzar]

Or Paul Silas perhaps?

Pick and roll defense is more than just effort. The defensive scheme has to designed to deal with the physical abilities of the players. Lots of teams with slower inside guys figure out how to defend the pick and roll, which means they don't put their biggest guy on a guard.

During the Spur series, I got very frustrated with how D'Antoni never switched to a matchup zone dispite how ineffective their help man scheme was. Matchup zone leaves the mid range open, but takes away the layups and three point shots.

uhh ok, go back and watch the Lakers/Pistons finals and you'll plainly see Shaq not coming out to defend the pick and roll. It had nothing to do with the defensive scheme and everything to do with him being lazy and saving his energy for offense.

 

[Irish]

uhh ok, go back and watch the Lakers/Pistons finals and you'll plainly see Shaq not coming out to defend the pick and roll. It had nothing to do with the defensive scheme and everything to do with him being lazy and saving his energy for offense.

Oh, you mean that finals. I thought maybe you were getting ahead of yourself.

I was curious about the stats on that series. Maybe I'm missing something, but blaming Shaq seems a bit odd. In five games the Pistons shot only 42.9% and averaged just 90.8 ppg. The Pistons did dominate on the boards (they had Ben Wallace and Sheed that year), but Shaq did have 10.8 rpg.

Shaq averaged 26.6 ppg on 63.1% shooting(he did shoot badly from the line). But the rest of the Lakers couldn't shoot.

Kobe averaged 22.6 ppg, but hit only 38.1% of his shots including 17.4% for three. Overall, the Lakers shot only 41.9% for that series. Payton averaged only 4.2 ppg on 32.1% shooting in 33.6 minutes per game. Malone was injured, but he averaged 5 ppg on 33.3% shooting. Fisher averaged 6.4 ppg on 30.6% shooting.

Hamilton and Billips had a good series shooting, but overall holding an opponent to 42.9% should be enough to win. But the Lakers averaged only 81.8 ppg on 41.6% and 31.8% for three. That's why they lost.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Oh, you mean that finals. I thought maybe you were getting ahead of yourself.

I was curious about the stats on that series. Maybe I'm missing something, but blaming Shaq seems a bit odd. In five games the Pistons shot only 42.9% and averaged just 90.8 ppg. The Pistons did dominate on the boards (they had Ben Wallace and Sheed that year), but Shaq did have 10.8 rpg.

Shaq averaged 26.6 ppg on 63.1% shooting(he did shoot badly from the line). But the rest of the Lakers couldn't shoot.

Kobe averaged 22.6 ppg, but hit only 38.1% of his shots including 17.4% for three. Overall, the Lakers shot only 41.9% for that series. Payton averaged only 4.2 ppg on 32.1% shooting in 33.6 minutes per game. Malone was injured, but he averaged 5 ppg on 33.3% shooting. Fisher averaged 6.4 ppg on 30.6% shooting.

Hamilton and Billips had a good series shooting, but overall holding an opponent to 42.9% should be enough to win. But the Lakers averaged only 81.8 ppg on 41.6% and 31.8% for three. That's why they lost.

wow. i don't think i ever saw those stats. that's some massive ugliness.

 

[Sovereignz]

Everything but his PnR defense was.

That made it too easy for crappy players to get around him if he stood 3ft away from the rim.




But that was where Amare was supposed to step in and actually try himself. Hopefully we get Kurt Rambis or Avery Johnson so they can beat it into his head that he needs to play D

Nash and Shaq are both, at this stage of their careers, among the worst if not the worst pick and roll defenders at their positions in the league. If at any point last season you were depending on Amare Stoudemire to be able to overcome that fact for us by himself your understanding of his capabilities is severely lacking.

Amare has his defensive issues, but putting the onus on him for Nash and Shaq's absolutely horrible P&R defense is absurd. The only way to hide their deficiencies somewhat is a complete revamp of our defensive scheme (or actually implementing one.. zing!) as a TEAM. You can't expect one player, especially Amare Stoudemire of all people, to be our saviour for Nash and Shaq's pick and roll D.

 

[da_suns_fan]

I thought our 4-1 first round loss was the final chapter in the "optimistic look at the Shaq trade" argument.

Shaq is a nice guy, but Im not exactly sure what he's good at anymore. Maybe one on one defense but thats about it.

 

[Irish]

I thought our 4-1 first round loss was the final chapter in the "optimistic look at the Shaq trade" argument.

Shaq is a nice guy, but Im not exactly sure what he's good at anymore. Maybe one on one defense but thats about it.

I won't argue about the money, but one on one defense and blocking out on rebounding are nothing sneeze at. His 12.9 ppg on 61.1% shooting and 10.6 rpg were pretty good for a guy who was no longer the focus of the offense. In the playoffs he missed too many short shots, but his 9.2 rpg and 2.6 blocks per game were helpful.

If the Suns had not made the trade, the Suns might have ended up with nothing when Marion left (or stayed and whinned for another year before leaving). Even with Marion leaving, the Suns would not have more than MLE to pick up the slack.

 

[Mulletino]

As long as he can keep the weight down, he can be a killer on the court.

 

[Irish]

As long as he can keep the weight down, he can be a killer on the court.

Obviously a big "if". Still, I have no doubt he can score in the low block and is a pretty good passer. He forces a lot of teams to double the post, so figuing ways to take advantage of that is going to be a major objective of the new coaching staff.

As for the defensive problems, I don't get the impression that the Suns were any wors adding Shaq, just not enough better. A awful lot of the old scheme was based on creating deflections, so Shaq could not duplicate what Marion was about. But Marion could not defend the post without help, so this was a tradeoff. Still, D'Antoni seemed unwilling to make any adjustments and acted like Marion was still there.

 

[arwillan]

His defense is way under appreciated.

what defense? any basketball fan who knows anything about shaq knows that he is one of the worst big-man defenders of all time. he is just too slow. his only weapon on defense is his size which helps him force people away from the paint, but that didn't seem to do him any good in the playoffs this year. Duncan ate him alive worse than most of us would have expected. he can't guard the pick and roll to save his life. notice how the spurs ran about 3 pick and rolls on each possession against us and scored off of it, yet when they tried the same strategy on the lakers they got hammered because the lakers bigs can actually play the pick and roll.


size does not equal defense, get over your man crush on Shaq.

 

[Irish]

Duncan has been a major problem for everyone over his career because he can pass out of the double team so well.

Duncan
2006-07 2nd round 26.8 ppg on 57.3% shooting - team shooting 47.4%
2007-08 1st round 24.8 ppg on 49.5% shooting - team shooting 46.7%

Overall, the Suns did a slightly better job on Duncan this year. But the real key was that it took the Suns until game 4 before they moved Diaw to SF and onto Parker:

Game 4 - overall 39%
Duncan 6 of 18 and 14 point (33.3%)
Parker 7 of 17 and 18 points (41.1%)

Game 5 - overall 39.3%
Duncan 13 of 28 for 29 points (but on 46% shooting)
Parker 9 of 21 for 31 points (but only 42% shooting)

BTW, in game 1 the Suns were doing very well until Hill got injured. The need for someone who could deal with Parker and not be an offensive liabililty seems evident. IMHO adding this sort of wing for depth should be a priority since this has been a problem every year.

 

[Mulletino]

Duncan has been a major problem for everyone over his career because he can pass out of the double team so well.

Duncan
2006-07 2nd round 26.8 ppg on 57.3% shooting - team shooting 47.4%
2007-08 1st round 24.8 ppg on 49.5% shooting - team shooting 46.7%

Overall, the Suns did a slightly better job on Duncan this year. But the real key was that it took the Suns until game 4 before they moved Diaw to SF and onto Parker:

Game 4 - overall 39%
Duncan 6 of 18 and 14 point (33.3%)
Parker 7 of 17 and 18 points (41.1%)

Game 5 - overall 39.3%
Duncan 13 of 28 for 29 points (but on 46% shooting)
Parker 9 of 21 for 31 points (but only 42% shooting)

BTW, in game 1 the Suns were doing very well until Hill got injured. The need for someone who could deal with Parker and not be an offensive liabililty seems evident. IMHO adding this sort of wing for depth should be a priority since this has been a problem every year.

Hill has never finished a complete season for any team.
They should prorate his salary next year because everyone knows he will be hurt again.

 

[Andrew]

what defense? any basketball fan who knows anything about shaq knows that he is one of the worst big-man defenders of all time. he is just too slow. his only weapon on defense is his size which helps him force people away from the paint, but that didn't seem to do him any good in the playoffs this year. Duncan ate him alive worse than most of us would have expected. he can't guard the pick and roll to save his life. notice how the spurs ran about 3 pick and rolls on each possession against us and scored off of it, yet when they tried the same strategy on the lakers they got hammered because the lakers bigs can actually play the pick and roll.


size does not equal defense, get over your man crush on Shaq.

I think its funny out of all the posts here you choose mine to quote. Do you have a man crush on me?

 

[arwillan]

I think its funny out of all the posts here you choose mine to quote. Do you have a man crush on me?

ummm i quoted your post because you're the one who made the point which i was refuting. Would you prefer that i quote some totally unrelated post and then respond to what you say? that can be arranged. you're also the one worshiping the ground that Shaq walks on, so it seemed appropriate that i quoted you when making my point against Shaq. Grow up.

 

[Irish]

what defense? any basketball fan who knows anything about shaq knows that he is one of the worst big-man defenders of all time.

Do you actually read your own stuff? This statement is so obvioulsy an inane exaggeration that it make one wonder just how old you are.

 

[arwillan]

Do you actually read your own stuff? This statement is so obvioulsy an inane exaggeration that it make one wonder just how old you are.

it's not an exaggeration necessarily, it's called hyperbole. Look it up.

 

[Cheesewater]

it's not an exaggeration necessarily, it's called hyperbole. Look it up.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/hyperbole
http://thesaurus.reference.com/browse/hyperbole

Do you want me to look up "oops" next?

 

[Irish]

it's not an exaggeration necessarily, it's called hyperbole. Look it up.

Oh, and that makes it sensible?

Let me put it this way, how many Suns centers can you name that were better low post defenders than Shaq?