This team is an ace away from being a contender

[Matt L]

Hamels is owed $90 million for the next four years. Price may be able to get something close to Scherzer's 210 million for 7 years (which I assume Washington will be regretting when Scherzer is 35) Cueto might get just as much....

If Philadelphia is willing to eat some of the money owed to Hamels, I wouldn't mind giving up some spects for him.

 

[Dback Jon]

Hamels is owed $90 million for the next four years. Price may be able to get something close to Scherzer's 210 million for 7 years (which I assume Washington will be regretting when Scherzer is 35) Cueto might get just as much....

If Philadelphia is willing to eat some of the money owed to Hamels, I wouldn't mind giving up some spects for him.

Rangers are trying to get Hamels - will likely prevail.


I could see Hamels if not too much given up.


If Scherzer can get them to the WS, it will be worth it.

 

[DWKB]

If your goal is the offseason there is no reason to make this move now.

TLR has basically said we're looking to win this year.

 

[sundevil04]

TLR has basically said we're looking to win this year.

That's what I'm afraid of. If you ask me this team is a year away, I don't want to see any MORE prospects given up to win in a season where with 90 games left to play we're yet to get over .500. I guess the Hamels thing makes some sense at least because he's not a rent-a-player, he'll be here another 4 years.

 

[PDXChris]

If your goal is the offseason there is no reason to make this move now.

TLR has basically said we're looking to win this year.

Who would you go after? Serious question because as much as it pains me to say, you tend to have a good eye for baseball.

 

[DWKB]

Who would you go after? Serious question because as much as it pains me to say, you tend to have a good eye for baseball.

Well, if I were the GM, I would have ridden out this year and simply cut Arroyo if my hand was forced. I'm assuming the Owners would let me do that though. This team is just as good paying him to not be on the team as they are paying him to be on it.

If I'm looking at the situation now after the trade, Hamels is the best name being mentioned, but if I have to give up a bounty of call up CHW and see if Sale is available.

If I'm looking for a rental, I think CIN would ask for more Cueto than say, MIA would for Haren.

It's hard to say without knowing all of the inside information between GMs.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

Well, if I were the GM, I would have ridden out this year and simply cut Arroyo if my hand was forced. I'm assuming the Owners would let me do that though. This team is just as good paying him to not be on the team as they are paying him to be on it.

If I'm looking at the situation now after the trade, Hamels is the best name being mentioned, but if I have to give up a bounty of call up CHW and see if Sale is available.

If I'm looking for a rental, I think CIN would ask for more Cueto than say, MIA would for Haren.

It's hard to say without knowing all of the inside information between GMs.

100% in agreement.

 

[sundevil04]

Well, if I were the GM, I would have ridden out this year and simply cut Arroyo if my hand was forced. I'm assuming the Owners would let me do that though. This team is just as good paying him to not be on the team as they are paying him to be on it.

If I'm looking at the situation now after the trade, Hamels is the best name being mentioned, but if I have to give up a bounty of call up CHW and see if Sale is available.

If I'm looking for a rental, I think CIN would ask for more Cueto than say, MIA would for Haren.

It's hard to say without knowing all of the inside information between GMs.

Haren is an interesting name for a rent-a-pitcher, I wasn't aware he's having the season he's having. What a great story that would be if we did make a run with him.

I couldn't see the White Sox trading Sale for less than a kings ranson, he's 26 with a career ERA of 2.76 over nearly 800 IP and under contract for the next 5 years for a total of 53 million. That's the Paul Goldschmidt of pitcher contracts.

 

[unseenaz]

Well, if I were the GM, I would have ridden out this year and simply cut Arroyo if my hand was forced. I'm assuming the Owners would let me do that though. This team is just as good paying him to not be on the team as they are paying him to be on it.

If I'm looking at the situation now after the trade, Hamels is the best name being mentioned, but if I have to give up a bounty of call up CHW and see if Sale is available.

If I'm looking for a rental, I think CIN would ask for more Cueto than say, MIA would for Haren.

It's hard to say without knowing all of the inside information between GMs.

Agreed across the boards, good post.

That being said, I highly sincerely doubt even TLR thinks THIS is our year for competition. We won't be buyers at the deadline. Too many holes to fill first

 

[82CardsGrad]

I haven't seen (could've missed it) anything from LaRussa where he said "this season" is our season to "win". I have heard him, as recent as Monday, state that he wants to win "now" and not "wait 4, 5 or 6 years".

 

[DWKB]

IF we don't make a mid-season move, then I really don't get this trade. Arroyo isn't scheduled to be ready till mid July at the absolute earliest and might not pitch this year at all. So there wasn't an immediate roster decision to make. The trade deadline also isn't even close so there wasn't an immediate trade decision to be made.

The owners approved the budget for the year and we've already cut some payroll before this trade so I can't see the owners forcing the move in isolation.

Keeping Arroyo for the year would add only $4.5M to next years budget.

Without the secondary mid-season move, the timing of this trade makes no sense.

 

[overseascardfan]

IF we don't make a mid-season move, then I really don't get this trade. Arroyo isn't scheduled to be ready till mid July at the absolute earliest and might not pitch this year at all. So there wasn't an immediate roster decision to make. The trade deadline also isn't even close so there wasn't an immediate trade decision to be made.

The owners approved the budget for the year and we've already cut some payroll before this trade so I can't see the owners forcing the move in isolation.

Keeping Arroyo for the year would add only $4.5M to next years budget.

Without the secondary mid-season move, the timing of this trade makes no sense.

Which all of us critics on this board have been trying to point out. Even Bickley wrote an article on how bad it makes Kendrick look with TLR trying to put one hell of a spin on it.

 

[82CardsGrad]

IF we don't make a mid-season move, then I really don't get this trade. Arroyo isn't scheduled to be ready till mid July at the absolute earliest and might not pitch this year at all. So there wasn't an immediate roster decision to make. The trade deadline also isn't even close so there wasn't an immediate trade decision to be made.

The owners approved the budget for the year and we've already cut some payroll before this trade so I can't see the owners forcing the move in isolation.

Keeping Arroyo for the year would add only $4.5M to next years budget.

Without the secondary mid-season move, the timing of this trade makes no sense.

LaRussa was on Doug & Wolf this morning and was hit head-on with this issue. His responded well IMHO - but of course, I might be a little biased as I really like and respect Tony...
In a nutshell, he stated:

- First & Foremost, it bothers him that this move is causing such angst within the fanbase. He believes there is a ton more good than bad happening with this team, including ratings and attendance increases, and he wants to continue to grow that type of support.

- Secondly, he was very "Big Picture" with regard to the implications of this move. When asked how he will spend the $10 million this year, Tony responded by saying that he might not spend it this year at all. Could be this season, or, could be in the off-season, or, it could be next season...

- He also restated his views on Touki - that while he believed Touki will be in the majors some day, that day is most likely many years off. He and his staff believe this team is very close to being a consistent playoff contender. He feels that they have made a bunch of moves to get younger across the team and the system. His desire to build a foundation that will provide sustained success and not seek to win for just a moment in time...

We can all draw our own conclusions. My opinion is that while I don't like this trade, I also know that I'm never gonna like every move leaders make... As I mentioned, I respect the heck out of Tony and I marvel at his energy, passion and desire to win at the age of 70.
IMHO, he has earned the ability to receive the benefit of the doubt... The road to success isn't always straight and clearly defined. At times, we may not fully understand the method and the path being taken by leaders. But for now, what I see is a team that is generally advancing than declining. And if Tony & Co feel that dumping $10 million in this way provides them with more options now or later, I can deal with it...

 

[Phrazbit]

LaRussa was on Doug & Wolf this morning and was hit head-on with this issue. His responded well IMHO - but of course, I might be a little biased as I really like and respect Tony...
In a nutshell, he stated:

- First & Foremost, it bothers him that this move is causing such angst within the fanbase. He believes there is a ton more good than bad happening with this team, including ratings and attendance increases, and he wants to continue to grow that type of support.

- Secondly, he was very "Big Picture" with regard to the implications of this move. When asked how he will spend the $10 million this year, Tony responded by saying that he might not spend it this year at all. Could be this season, or, could be in the off-season, or, it could be next season...

- He also restated his views on Touki - that while he believed Touki will be in the majors some day, that day is most likely many years off. He and his staff believe this team is very close to being a consistent playoff contender. He feels that they have made a bunch of moves to get younger across the team and the system. His desire to build a foundation that will provide sustained success and not seek to win for just a moment in time...

We can all draw our own conclusions. My opinion is that while I don't like this trade, I also know that I'm never gonna like every move leaders make... As I mentioned, I respect the heck out of Tony and I marvel at his energy, passion and desire to win at the age of 70.
IMHO, he has earned the ability to receive the benefit of the doubt... The road to success isn't always straight and clearly defined. At times, we may not fully understand the method and the path being taken by leaders. But for now, what I see is a team that is generally advancing than declining. And if Tony & Co feel that dumping $10 million in this way provides them with more options now or later, I can deal with it...

If they're wanting to build a lasting foundation and not just seek a moment in time then why did they just sell one of their top young guys for a quick 10 million bucks?

It feels like doublespeak. He said a lot of stuff but literally none of it comes close to justifying that move beyond "We felt like being cheap" and a bunch of the stuff he said flat out contradicts the trade.

 

[82CardsGrad]

If they're wanting to build a lasting foundation and not just seek a moment in time then why did they just sell one of their top young guys for a quick 10 million bucks?

It feels like doublespeak. He said a lot of stuff but literally none of it comes close to justifying that move beyond "We felt like being cheap" and a bunch of the stuff he said flat out contradicts the trade.

Honestly - I don't believe Tony & Co truly believe in Touki as a "top young talent"... On the radio today, he made a quick/passing comment how he and his staff we're "not here" when that and many other moves were made.
He didn't dwell on it, but to me it sure sounded like he has a very different perspective of Touki.

And it would be a "moment in time" move if they used this money to try to grab an older player... But Tony made the point quite clear that he fully intends to continue to build thru youth...

Time will tell I guess...

 

[Chris_Sanders]

When asked how he will spend the $10 million this year, Tony responded by saying that he might not spend it this year at all. Could be this season, or, could be in the off-season, or, it could be next season...

And there it is. Can we stop acting like some secondary move is happening because it isn't...

They wanted money and tried to trade away the guy they thought would have the least amount of impact to the team right now.

The end.

 

[overseascardfan]

LaRussa was on Doug & Wolf this morning and was hit head-on with this issue. His responded well IMHO - but of course, I might be a little biased as I really like and respect Tony...
In a nutshell, he stated:

- First & Foremost, it bothers him that this move is causing such angst within the fanbase. He believes there is a ton more good than bad happening with this team, including ratings and attendance increases, and he wants to continue to grow that type of support.

- Secondly, he was very "Big Picture" with regard to the implications of this move. When asked how he will spend the $10 million this year, Tony responded by saying that he might not spend it this year at all. Could be this season, or, could be in the off-season, or, it could be next season...

- He also restated his views on Touki - that while he believed Touki will be in the majors some day, that day is most likely many years off. He and his staff believe this team is very close to being a consistent playoff contender. He feels that they have made a bunch of moves to get younger across the team and the system. His desire to build a foundation that will provide sustained success and not seek to win for just a moment in time...

We can all draw our own conclusions. My opinion is that while I don't like this trade, I also know that I'm never gonna like every move leaders make... As I mentioned, I respect the heck out of Tony and I marvel at his energy, passion and desire to win at the age of 70.
IMHO, he has earned the ability to receive the benefit of the doubt... The road to success isn't always straight and clearly defined. At times, we may not fully understand the method and the path being taken by leaders. But for now, what I see is a team that is generally advancing than declining. And if Tony & Co feel that dumping $10 million in this way provides them with more options now or later, I can deal with it...

We have to remember TLR has no front office experience, in fact he may have been a terrific manager but Walt Jocketty & John Mozeliak built the STL organization into a perennial playoff threat through great talent assessment and talent acquisition. TLR can manage the hell out of a game but the jury is out on his ability to assess talent unless he taking the responsibility for this deal even though he was forced by Kendrick to make the deal.

But his justification makes no sense as in order to build a consistent playoff team you need to develop talent long term, not jettison them and let some other team reap the benefits, John Hart capitalized.

 

[sundevil04]

We're on pace for 18 more wins than last season while paying half as much for our roster. I'll give TLR and Dave Stewart the benefit of the doubt for now.

 

[GatorAZ]

We're on pace for 18 more wins than last season while paying half as much for our roster. I'll give TLR and Dave Stewart the benefit of the doubt for now.

The payroll is only down around 20M from opening day and cutting salary doesn't make it more impressive when bums like Cody Ross and Trevor Cahill were eating a majority of the difference.

 

[82CardsGrad]

But his justification makes no sense as in order to build a consistent playoff team you need to develop talent long term, not jettison them and let some other team reap the benefits, John Hart capitalized.

Aside from Touki - a kid he didn't draft, what other talent has he "jettisoned"??

 

[sundevil04]

The payroll is only down around 20M from opening day and cutting salary doesn't make it more impressive when bums like Cody Ross and Trevor Cahill were eating a majority of the difference.

I'll be the first to say that Cahill and Ross were overpaid bums, along with Arroyo, which is exactly why this FO did exactly what they should have done first and shed that dead weight.

Don't pass blame from the old FO to this one. This FO has done exactly what they should

Also let's not forget the Miggy and Parra were traded in two of the very first deals that TLR made when he arrived. TLR came on board in May of 2014 and in July he traded Parra and in December Miggy. Those two alone are making over 18M this season.

 

[sundevil04]

The payroll is only down around 20M from opening day and cutting salary doesn't make it more impressive when bums like Cody Ross and Trevor Cahill were eating a majority of the difference.

Players released/traded since TLR arrived...

C. Ross
Miggy
T. Cahill
G. Parra
B. Arroyo
M. Trumbo

I'd assume that's around 50 Mil in 2015 salaries right there. Granted we paid half of Arroyo's since he was here half the season and Ross' because he sucks so bad we had to pay him to go away. But when you factor in the 2016, 2017 etc savings, he's saved this ballclub TONSSSS, as in likely 80 Mil TOOONNSSSSS that we can use to rebuild with.

 

[GatorAZ]

I'll be the first to say that Cahill and Ross were overpaid bums, along with Arroyo, which is exactly why this FO did exactly what they should have done first and shed that dead weight.

Don't pass blame from the old FO to this one. This FO has done exactly what they should

Also let's not forget the Miggy and Parra were traded in two of the very first deals that TLR made when he arrived. TLR came on board in May of 2014 and in July he traded Parra and in December Miggy. Those two alone are making over 18M this season.

How am I blaming the new regime for the previous regime's actions? I feel like you're trying to convince people that TLR should be given praise for realizing terrible players are terrible.

 

[sundevil04]

How am I blaming the new regime for the previous regime's actions? I feel like you're trying to convince people that TLR should be given praise for realizing terrible players are terrible.

Realizing that terrible players are terrible is more than our previous FO could do. The impressive thing is that TLR hasn't only realized it, he's done something about it quickly and effectively while still managing to put a MUCH more competitive team on the field while keeping the team very young.

Look at the ages and talent of the team and then remember that the 15 players here combine for 11mil in salaries, it's scary how well this FO has done.

1b - Goldy - 27
2b - Owings/Drury? 23/22
3b - Lamb - 24
ss - Ahmed - 25
C Castillo - 28
lf - Inciarte/Peralta/O'Brien? (24/27/24)
cf - Pollack - 27
rf- Tomas - 24

Corbin - 25
Bradley - 22
Anderson - 27
Ray - 23

Compare that to a year ago today...

1b - Goldy
2b - Hill
3b - Prado
ss - Didi
c - Miggy
lf - Parra
cf - Pollack
rf - Trumbo/Cody freakin Ross

Pitchers

Bronson Arroyo
Trevor Cahill
Josh Collmenter,
Randall Delgado
Brandon McCarthy
Wade Miley

I don't know what the total of the players 2014 salaries listed here were, but I'd assume upwards or 100mil.

What TLR has done in 1 year is amazing.

 

[DWKB]

And there it is. Can we stop acting like some secondary move is happening because it isn't...

They wanted money and tried to trade away the guy they thought would have the least amount of impact to the team right now.

The end.

If this was simply throwing a prospect away so the owners could save an extra $5M this year and $5M next year and move us from like 27th in payroll to 29th in payroll then I think it is a de-facto poor trade. Also if true I cannot blame the FO for this poor move.