Thoughts from the game

[Joe Mama]

That was the first Phoenix Suns playoff game I have ever attended. Until the last 5 minutes it was extremely ugly and hard to watch. Here are some random thoughts...

-What has happened to this team's shooting? Shawn Marion, Joe Johnson, Penny Hardaway, and Stephon Marbury could not buy an outside shot.

-Why does Penny Hardaway have to commit at least one lazy turnover per game? It has happened all season-long.

-I can understand why Greg Popovich once the other San Antonio Spurs to stop shooting three-pointers. I can understand the reasoning behind sending them to the basket. I can't understand guys like Stefan Jackson and Ginobilli and Bowen passing on wide open three-point shots. And when I say they were wide open I mean there was nobody within fifteen feet of them. More times then I care to remember one of those players would catch the ball by himself behind the arc, wait a couple seconds for the defender to get there, give a head fake, and drive to the basket. That was the strategy that did not work in Game 1 and barely worked in Game 2.

-I honestly think when Scott Williams is not in the game they should let Amare Stoudemire guard Tim Duncan. He really does a pretty good job at it. He has long arms, quick hands, and the strength to make Duncan uncomfortable. Of course Amare will have to stay out of foul trouble away from TD to make that a real option.

-I posted this on another thread, but I did not think the officiating was very lopsided tonight. There were more than a handful of plays where I was left shaking my head because I thought the Phoenix Suns got away with one.

-that lineup frame Johnson had in the game just before halftime was absolutely awful. As soon as they came in with Casey Jacobsen and Tom Gugliotta I was pissed. Googs played well, but I won't be the least bit disappointed if CJ doesn't play the rest of the postseason. At one point I couldn't believe the referees didn't call him for charging. He ran one of the San Antonio Spurs over. He can't hit the three-point shots, NT is a below average defender. As far as I'm concerned he has a lot of improving to do this summer, or I will consider him a busted pick.

-lastly, I have no idea how the Phoenix Suns won that game. Credit the defense and some players to haven't done anything up to that point really stepping it up at the end of the fourth quarter.

Joe Mama

 

[cheng]

The Refs were just HORRIBLE until about 10 min remainning in the 4th. Especially during the Spurs 10-1 run in the 3rd quarter, the Suns I believe got FOUR offensive fouls in two minutes. The suns were already in penalty 2 mins into the 4th with a 12 pt gap, I thought the game was over. I too have no idea how they won the game. They missed half of FTs in the 4th, Stoudemire fouled out, Marbury couldn't even feel his arm and Marion missed 2 dunks.

I think FJ had no choice but to play Googs and CJ before the HT, Penny, Stoudemire and Voskhul all got 3 fouls with alot of time left in the second quarter.

Voskhul could easily get called for another offensive on the play that tie the score at 80-80. Instead the ref called a blocking foul. That I think was the play of the game.

 

[Chaplin]

I didn't think the officiating was too bad until the 2nd half. Then it got pretty ridiculous. We had a lot of foul trouble, and I question all of Penny's calls against him, but as for Amare and Jake, well, they did do some fouling in that first half.

 

[NDSunsfan]

i think most of the calls were OK, but my problem with the calls was the context. a close game in the playoffs, in the 2nd half. it's obvious that calls made in the regular season usually aren't made in the playoffs. i do think some of the suns are consistently out of position when setting screens and getting position for rebounds. marbury had at least one offensive foul where he blatantly put his head down and dove into the defender.

i would just like to let the players bang in the playoffs. if you watch the nhl playoffs, you pretty much have to mug someone to get a penalty. the nhl officials seem to know that they don't want their calls to determine the outcome of the game. i just wish the nba officials would read the same memo.

i'd be happy with fewer calls on both ends. just let them bang. the suns have plenty of bodies.

go suns!

brad

 

[JCSunsfan]

i'd be happy with fewer calls on both ends. just let them bang. the suns have plenty of bodies.

go suns!

brad [/B]

I completely disagree. I would be thrilled if the NBA refs called the playoffs just like the regular season. Its one of the things that just drives me nuts about the NBA. It almost like two completely different sports.

Call the playoffs like the reg season, or the reg season like the playoffs. Call the beginning of games and the end of games the same. Give both rooks and vets the benefit of the same rule book. Call one game like the next. Ahhh bball Utopia!

 

[Chaplin]

Well, I don't really mind the concept of the officiating differences in the playoffs, but I do have a problem with the "star treatment" everyone always talks about.

Star players make millions more than guys like Little Jake, yet if there is a BLATANT call, they don't get it. The game is being ruined by a number of things, and IMO, that is one of them.

 

[Joe Mama]

I actually thought that overall this was probably the most evenly officiated game so far in this series. Games 1 & 2 were lopsided in the San Antonio Spurs' favor.

I also saw at least one play in the fourth quarter where Marbury easily could have been called for an offensive foul, but they called it against Claxton. When Amare Stoudemire knocked the ball away from Tim Duncan at the end of the game and Marbury got a layup it should have been a foul on Amare. He didn't even touch the ball. He hacked Tim Duncan across the arms.

Joe Mama

 

[Goldfield]

Originally posted by JCSunsfan
I completely disagree. I would be thrilled if the NBA refs called the playoffs just like the regular season. Its one of the things that just drives me nuts about the NBA. It almost like two completely different sports.

Call the playoffs like the reg season, or the reg season like the playoffs. Call the beginning of games and the end of games the same. Give both rooks and vets the benefit of the same rule book. Call one game like the next. Ahhh bball Utopia!

thank you... A foul is a foul right...? Rookie or not, end of game or not!

 

[Goldfield]

Originally posted by Joe Mama
I actually thought that overall this was probably the most evenly officiated game so far in this series. Games 1 & 2 were lopsided in the San Antonio Spurs' favor.

I also saw at least one play in the fourth quarter where Marbury easily could have been called for an offensive foul, but they called it against Claxton. When Amare Stoudemire knocked the ball away from Tim Duncan at the end of the game and Marbury got a layup it should have been a foul on Amare. He didn't even touch the ball. He hacked Tim Duncan across the arms.

Joe Mama

I agree some of the calls were better... But there was a stretch of calls that were about to make me puke...

 

[NDSunsfan]

i agree 'ball utopia' would be an excellent place. however, we can't even get the refs to call consistently from the beginning of a game to the end. it is quite a stretch to hope they make the same calls from regular season to playoffs. you are correct when you say a foul is a foul no matter when it occurs.........but.......

....if a superstart commits a foul in the playoffs and there is noone with guts enough to call it, is it really a foul???????


brad

 

[3rdside]

this may seem like an implausible idea but, is it possible that if the officiating is consistently bad then wouldn't it be consistently bad for both teams? And if thats the case, then what does it matter whether the officiating's bad? Or whether there are superstar calls? Over seven games, wouldn't the bad umpiring and star calls for both teams just get cancelled out? Basketball is about the hardest sport to call and referees are just human. Shouldn't we just give them the benefit of the doubt?

If there is no conspiracy (and who honestly believes it is better for TV ratings to have SA rather than Phoenix in the next round) then everyone should just shut up about the umpiring cause these referees are just doing a job as best they can. Listening to someone bitch about the officiating gets tiring because it happens every game and, if you check out other message boards, they are bitching about the same game too. Let it go people.

 

[Chaz]

Sorry but bad calls are inherently unfair no matter who they benefit or hurt. Can you really be saying if it is equally bad for both teams then it is ok?
I agree that basketball is difficult to officiate but let’s strive for greatness here not mediocrity.

 

[elindholm]

The biggest problem, in my opinion, is that most NBA players learned the game playing street ball, where rough play is expected. According to the rule book, there are multiple fouls on virtually every play during an NBA game. The officials really "should" be blowing their whistles 1000 times a game. But that would be boring, and it isn't what the players are used to.

So the entire concept of what constitutes a foul becomes highly subjective. Instead of, "Was there illegal contact?" the question becomes, "Did this illegal contact substantially interfere with the shot?"

That's why the superstars get the calls. If Kobe Bryant misses a contested 18-footer, the question isn't whether the defender fouled him. Of course he did. The question is whether it was "enough" of a foul to bother the shot. Since Bryant is known for being a good shooter, it makes it appear more likely that the foul bothered the shot.

Similarly, when a no-name misses a shot, the officials think, "He wasn't going to make it anyway." Again, they know there was a foul, but it wasn't enough of a foul to change the outcome of the shot.

This kind of thinking influences every single call or non-call during a game. Does Marbury travel before he starts his drive? Yes, of course he does. But does it give him an unfair advantage, beyond the usual unfair advantage that all NBA players are used to getting? That's the difficult question.

Or how about contesting rebounds? Have you noticed that there is almost never a loose-ball foul called when the player who was fouled ends up getting the ball anyway? They call the foul only if it affected the outcome. Basically, you can climb over the other guy as much as you want, as long as he still comes away with the ball.

I don't really see a solution. If games were called cleanly, the players wouldn't adjust and it would just be boring. So the only option is to let everyone shove one another around, and then try to decide which of the dozen fouls occuring every possession is or is not worthy of being called.

 

[Charles V]

The refs stink, but 9 out of 10 times a team can like the Suns can look inward at mistakes that they made that influenced the game far greater than anything a ref could do. Had the Suns lost last night (shudder), there would have been plenty of blame to go around despite a poor showing by the refs...again.

 

[elindholm]

The refs stink, but 9 out of 10 times a team can like the Suns can look inward at mistakes that they made that influenced the game far greater than anything a ref could do.

That's irrelevant. Think of a tennis match in which one player gets to use the doubles alleys and the other one doesn't. The disadvantaged player can still win, but the game is strongly stacked against him.

 

[3rdside]

Great post elindholm - that really made sense.

I don't really see a solution.

Exactly. Honestly, what can you do - its not like you can get umpires to 'see' any better. I have no real problem with game to game bad calls because thats life (although it still sucks).

My only concern with umpires is the so called stern effect - I'm not sold that they don't deliberately try to influence the outcome of a game. When you think back to game six in the Kings - LA series you seriously have to wonder whether something suspect was going on. Its not like the referees handed the series to the lakers because there was of course one more game to be played after gme six, but it would not surprise me to hear that in that particular game, the refs were on the lakers side.

In an intense series like that, TV ratings are high and one more game would be worth that much more to the NBA's bottom line (read executive bonuses). And it's not like Stern would need to say anything explicitly; the veteran referees would be ingrained with the knowledge that there is nothing wrong with an extra game. Besides, don't they (the referees) get paid per game on top of their flat salary?

I think what I'm trying to say is that while the NBA doesn't influence directly who will be the champs, they may influence individual games if they think an extra buck can be made from doing so. Whilst not strictly fair (actually not fair at all), it may just be an unfortunate consequence of corporate America. And there isn't much we can do about it.

 

[elindholm]

I think what I'm trying to say is that while the NBA doesn't influence directly who will be the champs, they may influence individual games if they think an extra buck can be made from doing so.

I think that subliminal influences are inevitable. Anyone who has ever played with a Ouija board knows about this phenomenon. You have two (or more) people swearing that they aren't pushing the, uh, whatever-it's-called to this or that location, and they all really believe they are telling the truth. And yet the thing moves. Since most of us do not believe it is magic, the only other explanation is that extremely subtle influences from the players involved add up to a tangible result.

Of course everyone employed by the league knows that it's better for the Lakers to win, for series to go seven games, or for games to be close in the final minutes. Do they intentionally slant their calls in order to steer toward the desired result? I doubt it. But, just as the Ouija oracle glides mysteriously to one side of the board, so do the accumulated subliminal biases of the officials result in a playing field that isn't level.

That's not a conspiracy. It's just human nature.

 

[3rdside]

i think what i was trying to say is what you just said...

 

[AZZenny]

The refs stink, but 9 out of 10 times a team can like the Suns can look inward at mistakes that they made that influenced the game far greater than anything a ref could do.

I think the way a team like the Suns (or Spurs, etc.) is playing could influence the refs more than they may be aware. The Suns played sloppy, undisciplined, impatient {"ugly"} ball the other night for about 3.5 quarters - Spurs looked more disciplined and crisp. I can see how a ref might respond to that - and the unconcious bias gets a little more fuel. 'When in doubt, these guys are undisciplined, must be them.' Perhaps some of the same thing occurs with youngsters (or maybe that's just bullying and hazing!)