Thoughts on QBs

Mitch

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What exacty was it that made Kurt Warner such a great QB for the Cardinals? His leadership? His character? His toughness---both physical and mental? His uncanny accuracy and sense of timing? His ability to read defenses and blitzes and his understanding of how to beat them? All the communication he did with his WRs in getting himself and them all on the same page? His work ethic? His insatiable hunger to put up big numbers? His insatiable desire to win? His understanding of what it takes for a team to win in the playoffs, both in terms of strategy and in terms of developing the right mindset?

Pretty much all of the above, right?

Having Warner at QB was like having an offensive coordinator in the huddle and on the field. He was always figuring out how to beat the defense at hand. Will you ever forget watching him take notes on the sideline in the Week 17 game versus the Packers? Think those notes had something to do with the 48 points he scored on them a week later?

But of all the aforementioned qualities NFL coaches look for in a QB, the one that matters the most is toughness. Essentially the real good NFL QBs are the ones who can stand in the pocket without allowing a shred of fear to enter their minds so that they will be able to deliver the ball at the precise time, even if it means taking a big hit.

If you look at the QBs who played in the past several Super Bowls, they all could be considered paragons of toughness. Drew Brees, despite his diminutive stature, is a bulldog in the pocket. Peyton Manning---talk about toughness. The rattling that he had to overcome earlier in his career was more of a mental confusion as to what teams like the Patriots were doing scheme-wise to beat him. Peyton has since figured those things out and he knows how to crack the codes. Big Ben---man, that guy is one tough hombre is one super strong horse to try to pull down. Kurt Warner---even after getting pummeled in the first half of the Saints' game, even having to be concerned about incurring another concussion, and even though the outcome of the game was out of reach---stood in that pocket and did not flinch one iota---it's really the only way he knows how to play. Tom Brady---I just read recently and article that divulged that Brady this off-season has been taking boxing lessons---for here is a guy who thrives on being tough and always has. The only recent Super Bowl QB that one might still question interms of his toughness is Eli Manning---but, hey, it was his toughness in a totally colapsed pocket when he was nearly sacked three times and somehow managed to wriggle free long enough to get the ball downfield to a leaping David Tyree that paved the way for the Giants' stunning upset of the 18-0 Patriots.

The ESPN crew in their State of the Cardinals feature questioned Matt Leinart's toughness. This is the area where Leinart has to prove himself, perhaps more than any other. Leinart showed his toughness in regal fashion for USC during his senior year when he led the Trojans to a come from behind victory over the Fighting Irish in South Bend. The 4th and 10 yard pass that kept the winning drive alive was delivered under duress and right on the money up the left sideline. Then Leinart put every ounce of strength he had into running the tough yards for the game winning TD. This is the Matt Leinart that needs to show up for training camp.

Derek Anderson is big and strong and if one watches game film of the one very good season he had for the Browns, he often waited until the last second to throw several of his TDs knowing that he was going to take a pounding. This is the Derek Anderson that needs to show up for training camp if he has any reasonable hope of winning the QB job.

As for the draft...if you are looking for toughness at QB, the one player who has it head and shoulders over the others is Tim Tebow. This is why he is the most talked about player in this draft. This is a rare QB prospect who actually relishes the physical aspects of the game. There are times on the football field where it becomes clear that he will do anything and everything physcially possible to win his team the football game. This is an extraordinary quality. Sometimes success has as much to do with sheer will and desire as anything else. Mechancis can be taught and learned and even perfected...but toughness? Can it be taught and learned?

The second toughest QB propect, IMO, is Jimmy Clausen. This guy has a high tolernace for pain and he will play and endure through the hurts. This is one of the reasons why some scouts liken him to Kurt Warner. We saw Warner play for over a half a year with one arm tied behind his back. We learned a year ago that in the Super Bowl run Warner was suffering from a painful hip injury. It never deterred him.

As for the rest of the QB propects? Your guess is as good as mine. I grew admiration for Mike Kafka when I watched how fearless he played, especially for a guy who was a starter for only one year.

With Sam Bradford and Colt McCoy---the question is can they hold up physcially? In Bradford's case, it makes scouts question whether he truly deserves to be at the top of this draft.

John Skelton has a big-time arm. The only time I've seen him play live was at the Senior Bowl, and I was very impressed with his arm strength...but---and yes it was only one game---I was not nearly as impressed with his presence on the football field. The ESPN crew alluded to it as well and the concerns they had heard about the occasional conflicts he had with his coaches at Fordham. If I had game tapes of Fordham, I'd want to know just how tough this kid is. If he wasn't a stalwart in the pocket at Fordham, one would have to question his assimilation into the NFL.

Joe Flacco coming out of Delaware was one tough cookie. His assimilation into the NFL was an immediate and natural one.

There's one other QB I've been paying a good deal of attention to in recent days---it's Armanti Edwards of Appalachian St. The way this guy hangs in the pocket and the tenacious way he runs with the football, you want to forget the fact that he's 5-11, 181 pounds. It's interesting too that he is a two-time winner of the Walter Payton Award, given to the top FSC player in the nation. Was there anyone tougher, pound for pound, than Walter Payton?

Because of his toughness, I think Armanti Edwards has a decent chance to play QB in this league and play it well. Drew Brees is barely 6-0.

As they say, "it's not the size of the dog in the fight that matters, it's the size of the fight in the dog."
 

Shane

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5' 11" and plays QB??? Thats a death sentence in the NFL Mitch. That was a a good write up but a complete waste of time IMO.
 

Shane

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the 181lbs is the bigger issue.

No not really no IMO. Height is the single biggest factor IMO. An inch under 6 feet? Which means he is probably closer to 5'7" we know how they fudge the #'s to make a player seem bigger than he is :)
 

Tyler

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I dont care if a QB is 5'1, if he plays bigger than he is and can see the field and make plays that is all that matters.
 

Cardiac

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Been awhile Mitch, good to see you back posting.
 

Crazy Canuck

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I dont care if a QB is 5'1, if he plays bigger than he is and can see the field and make plays that is all that matters.

When your 5'1... you can't see the field, no matter how big you might want to play.
 

Monty

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Im not one who makes a big deal out of size when a player can play his position well. The problem with the QB position its all about quick decision making in a matter of seconds or you get destroyed by line-backers and defensive ends and this is where height in particular becomes a difference maker. The shorter a QB is the harder they often struggle to see the field in particular with nose tackles and defensive ends that are 6'6, 6'8 and almost nearing 7ft these days. I dont really think a QB that stands at 5'11 even with good footwork and pocket awareness is gonna last long in the NFL.
 
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Mitch

Mitch

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Drew Brees, even in his 9th year in the NFL is 6-0, 209 lbs. Guess Brees wouldn't be on your draft boards, would he? Yet, he has a ring.

If you go watch Armanti Edwards, he looks and runs like RB Chris Johnson (5-11, 200) and has a gun for an arm. Extremely accurate completing 67% of his passes.

Edwards won two National Championships at Appalachian St. He beat Michigan at Michigan.

Go youtube him. He doesn't look tiny out there at all.

Otherwise, I apologize for "completely wasting your time."
 

WarnerHOF

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Drew Brees, even in his 9th year in the NFL is 6-0, 209 lbs. Guess Brees wouldn't be on your draft boards, would he? Yet, he has a ring.

If you go watch Armanti Edwards, he looks and runs like RB Chris Johnson (5-11, 200) and has a gun for an arm. Extremely accurate completing 67% of his passes.

Edwards won two National Championships at Appalachian St. He beat Michigan at Michigan.

Go youtube him. He doesn't look tiny out there at all.

Otherwise, I apologize for "completely wasting your time."

You have to realize he is playing against DII defenses in those highlight reels...Edwards won't be anything more than Seneca Wallace at best.
 

Matt L

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Doug Flutie was a serviceable starter at 5'10 about 10 years ago...I don't think it is unheard of.

I am becoming more and more intrigued by Tim Tebow...
 

Monty

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Drew Brees, even in his 9th year in the NFL is 6-0, 209 lbs. Guess Brees wouldn't be on your draft boards, would he? Yet, he has a ring.

If you go watch Armanti Edwards, he looks and runs like RB Chris Johnson (5-11, 200) and has a gun for an arm. Extremely accurate completing 67% of his passes.

Edwards won two National Championships at Appalachian St. He beat Michigan at Michigan.

Go youtube him. He doesn't look tiny out there at all.

Otherwise, I apologize for "completely wasting your time."

Take it easy Mitch, no-one is attacking you its just a debate dude. Im not saying that a player like Edwards cant make it but at his stature its gonna be very difficult for him to see the field on a regular basis at the NFL level as the pressure will increase about 200 fold. He will be dealing with DE's and NT's and even LB's that stand at times at 6'8 charging at him from all angels. Not only that he will have huge tall monsters standing in front of him on the offensive line that he has to navigate. No matter how fast he is its gonna tough for him to escape from getting sacked if he cant see the fall regularly and well.

Now Brees is an anomaly when it comes to QB's in general. Not only is he undersized but he has fairly poor arm strength and doesnt have the best footwork neither. But he has excellent vision, reads defenses well and is a very accurate thrower. I dont know much about Edwards but if he is anything like that then he might be worth giving a shot. The height issue doesnt rule him out completely but in terms of QB assesment it is an important aspect. If Edwards plays in a way that negates this and he somehow manages to make it work then he may too become the exception to the rule.
 

Shane

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Drew Brees, even in his 9th year in the NFL is 6-0, 209 lbs. Guess Brees wouldn't be on your draft boards, would he? Yet, he has a ring.

If you go watch Armanti Edwards, he looks and runs like RB Chris Johnson (5-11, 200) and has a gun for an arm. Extremely accurate completing 67% of his passes.

Edwards won two National Championships at Appalachian St. He beat Michigan at Michigan.

Go youtube him. He doesn't look tiny out there at all.

Otherwise, I apologize for "completely wasting your time."
First off Mitch you are using the exception rather than the rule. Also comparing the QB for App. State to Drew Brees is beyond ridiculous!
 

kerouac9

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Drew Brees, even in his 9th year in the NFL is 6-0, 209 lbs. Guess Brees wouldn't be on your draft boards, would he? Yet, he has a ring.

If you go watch Armanti Edwards, he looks and runs like RB Chris Johnson (5-11, 200) and has a gun for an arm. Extremely accurate completing 67% of his passes.

Edwards won two National Championships at Appalachian St. He beat Michigan at Michigan.

Go youtube him. He doesn't look tiny out there at all.

Otherwise, I apologize for "completely wasting your time."

Get a lot of Appalachian State games in Waltham, Mass, Mitch? All the YouTube clips of him are 2 years old.
 

Shane

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I dont care if a QB is 5'1, if he plays bigger than he is and can see the field and make plays that is all that matters.

Good thing you aren't an NFL scout then.
 

SuperSpck

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What exacty was it that made Kurt Warner such a great QB for the Cardinals?
As always, enjoy the posts! Makes for great discussion.
I can't believe you didn't mention his enormous grey-bearded testicles. Those were the difference maker.
Toughness is a double edged sword.
Hanging in the pocket also gets people hurt. The reason his time in St Louis came to an end was because of the 'hang-in-there' injury.
The Giants never really gave it time to heal.
His end in AZ was filled with pain in all the wrong places.
Wanna talk about a draft pick with legendary toughness?
Byron Leftwich. His pick was partly based on the legend of one series of toughness.

Let's be geeks for a second and talk about desirable traits in RPG fashion.
It's a third-tier necessity.
Tier one:
Vision
Accuracy
Leadership
Tier two:
Strength (arm)
Awareness
Tier three:
Toughness
Charisma

The only reason guys like Drew Brees fell to the second round was because of his height.
He torched the Big Ten. You can still see some of the smoldering wreckage over there.
Nobody in this year's draft class has that efficiency outside of Bradford, who has some question marks of his own.
 

MadCardDisease

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Edwards will be picked up by someone. He has value in a system that employs the Wildcat offense. He may even develop into a Randle El type WR.
 

jw7

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Edwards won two National Championships at Appalachian St. He beat Michigan at Michigan.

Go youtube him. He doesn't look tiny out there at all.

Sorry Mitch. I don't have the knowledge of football that you do, but I did youtube him and he seems OK for a lower division team.

No way he even gets drafted as a QB in the NFL. And what is worse is I don't think from the highlights he could be a converted WR or RB.

He DOES look tiny:

 

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Tom Brady---I just read recently and article that divulged that Brady this off-season has been taking boxing lessons---for here is a guy who thrives on being tough and always has.

Not sure how this is any different than Leinart taking MMA lessons. Not to say Leinart is nearly as tough as Brady, just that if taking boxing lessons makes a QB tough, then Leinart is tough.

Mitch, I wonder how exactly one can measure a QBs toughness accurately. There is a fine line between hanging on to the ball until the last second and hanging on too long. I would say it's more an issue of confidence and timing. Great QBs believe they can make almost every pass, have the timing with their WRs to know when to make it, and have the head for the game to know when not to make it.

I question Leinart's confidence more than anything. An unconfident QB can't lead a team.
 

Duckjake

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What exacty was it that made Kurt Warner such a great QB for the Cardinals?

Ken Whisenhunt.

Kurt Warner wasn't a great QB for the Cardinals when Denny Green was HC.

So apparently it wasn't any inherent talent that Warner had but something that a good coach brought out.
 

kerouac9

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I question Leinart's confidence more than anything. An unconfident QB can't lead a team.

I'm actually not that worried about this. Success breeds success, and I expect Whis to put Leinart in positions to be successful. That's what he did in the Pittsburgh Steelers game that I think is the best win that Leinart has ever orchestrated. He did the same thing with Warner, really: putting Warner in situations where he was running a two-minute offense while not forcing him to make handoffs and roll out or even take snaps from under center, which was a problem for him before his resurgence.

I'm more worried about Leinart's ability to physically hold up to the pounding that this level. Reports were that Leinart remade his body last season; he can't be suffering broken collarbones this year and lead the team. The rest of the offense has to be confident that Leinart can physically--not mentally--stand up to the beating.

Leinart's psyche has been through more than enough the last few years--starting with his first 3 or 4 NFL starts--to let us know that he's tough upstairs.
 

ASUCHRIS

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So apparently it wasn't any inherent talent that Warner had but something that a good coach brought out.

Wow, just ridiculous. The revisionist history by some regarding Warner leaves me shaking my head. It's pretty simple with Kurt, as long as you protect him, he's as accurate, if not more so than any QB in history.

I do have to give Whis credit for adapting his offense/gameplan to the strength of his team, while so many other coaches are rigid in implementing "my system".
 

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The only reason guys like Drew Brees fell to the second round was because of his height.
He torched the Big Ten. You can still see some of the smoldering wreckage over there.
Nobody in this year's draft class has that efficiency outside of Bradford, who has some question marks of his own.

Colt McCoy?

I've watched this guy since he took over for VY & think he could be special. The only differance in him & Bradford is the size & McCoy's lack of proving he can throw the deep ball. Despite his country boy looks & Texas accent, someones gonna get themselves quite a suprise if he's drafted by a West Coast offensive team.
 
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