Thoughts on the Defense.

[Cardsfaninlouky]

I know the personnel on this defense makes it limited to a certain degree on what it can & can't do. I commented on a post yesterday that VJ should get another yr, add some more talent for his defense & see what happens? I've looked at some numbers & thought about it & now I'm not so sure?

His pass defense has given up 29 TD passes this yr, that's insane.

It's week 11 & he still hasn't figured out a way to stop a TE. His defense has given up 12 TD passes to TE's.

His pass defense has given up 9.7 points/game in the 4th quarter this yr & that ranks dead last in the NFL.

In the last 3 games, his defenses have allowed 31 points points combined, during both 2 minute warnings in all 3 games.

It's 11 games in & still the same communication issues with our LB'ERS & secondary. Murphy & Reddick both just looked at one another yesterday, as to who was supposed to cover the TE on the 49ers first TD of the game.

It's 11 games in & he still hasn't taught them how to defend a screen pass. 140 yds of JG's passing total came off of screen passes. One of them he dropped Suggs into coverage on, mind boggling.

JG has 18 TD passes total this yr. 8 of them are against us in 2 games in 3 weeks. The other 10 are against everyone else. Again, mind boggling, no real adjustments from VJ in such a short period of time.

In closing, the offense has issues as well but they have kept us in most games only to be let down by the defense but keeps showing improvement. The defense, especially the secondary has shown no improvement, same communication issues every week. It's gotten to the point for me as a fan, when the other team has the ball, I always think they're going to score. We can't stop anyone. If VJ can't teach this defense how to cover a TE, stop a screen pass or communicate, maybe it's time to cut him loose?

One last thing. I failed to mention the fact he called an all out blitz & had CJ covering a RB in space with the middle of the field totally vacated. One last time, mind boggling.

 

[b8rtm8nn]

I don't see the value in keeping a DC for stability reasons if they are merely ok. I think Sanders mentioned it should be Kliffs call, which I agree with, but I hope Kliff gets rid of him.

By the way, Spanola called a near identical blitz last night against the chargers that left a DE against a RB while two LB blitzed, Rivers delivered and the RB easily outran the DE for about 40 yards. It's not the call, it's WHEN that play is called, and VJ has a poor sense of when.

 

[Russ Smith]

The Jimmy G stuff is actually the plan. SF is a run team and one of the complaints 49er fans have about them is you can almost tell by formation when they're going to run. We loaded the box against them in both games and I think Shanahan was doing what you should do in that situation, throw the ball. He doesn't have a down the field passing attack doesn't yet have the Wrs and that's not what Jimmy G does best, and he didn't have Kittle, so he used tons of screens.

What was stunning is we never figured out how to at least slow it down. I think the screen and TE problem is largely the LB's but with a bit of safety thrown in. But I also think this year the scheme has been a major problem too.

 

[New Mexico]

There's very little talent on that side of the ball. Let's see how he does with better players before we hit the reset button again. I think the real question is whether to give Keim another year.

 

[New Mexico]

There's very little talent on that side of the ball. Let's see how he does with better players before we hit the reset button again. I think the real question is whether to give Keim another year.

 

[Veer]

We had to sell out against the run. The 49ers will run all over opponents that don't respect Shanny's highly effective zone blocking scheme. Unfortunately our aggressive run defense lead to what will ultimately prove to be Jimmy G's best two games of the season. However, since we hung in there until the very end, it proved to be the right choice. Almost got gifted the W by Jimmy who threw 2 horrible picks as we dared him to air it out.

Our defense can't play balanced. Early on we played more deep coverage and teams ran all over us. Now we play the run more aggressive and get burned through the air. Vance Joseph has to pick his poison. We don't have the players to field a balanced defense. Against the Bucs, we took away their biggest threat Evans and Godwin, or at least limited them compared to what they usually produce. However, we got burned by their RBs and TEs who usually don't do anything. In all cases we had the right gameplan, just fell a bit short in the end. Considering how bad our defense is, at least we had a chance to win it, if the offense would have delivered at the very end. Against the Bucs we had a stupid interception when we were basically in clock-killing mode already. Against the 49ers we scored no points off 2 turnovers that were returned close to or further than midfield.

Vance Joseph isn't flawless, but players are the bigger issue. Give him a more dominant interior DT and a natural ILB next to Hicks, suddenly his scheme won't look that bad anymore.

 

[football karma]

a bit of stat research on the passing D we get to watch. I like to use Passer Rating Allowed as a wholistic look ---

no surprise: Cards rank #32 currently, giving up a passer rating of 113.0. The mid point currently of the NFL on passer rating allowed is 90.8 -- so 23 points worse than average. For comparison: Titans, Cowboys and Vikings are all in that 90 passer rating allowed range.

For perspective -- I had to go back to the 2015 NO Saints to find a team that gave up a worse passer rating for the year -- 116, who were 25 points worse than average

I went back a few more years without finding a worse rating, but it suffices to say:

the Cardinals are not just bad this year, but amongst the worst in recent history.

yikes

 

[football karma]

on the defense against SF: the Cards never made SF try to beat them over the top

I think that wheel routes on 4th down that Reddick broke up, and the one Walker got a PI call on were their longest attempts of the game. Everything else was short, or, a 15 yard crossing route.

I think at some point you have to dare Deebo Samuel to run past you

 

[Cardiac]

I thought that when PP returned our pass D would improve dramatically. He simply hasn't returned to form and we have 3 rookies getting a ton of reps.

The only time I can recall the Cards being able to cover a TE is when we had Tony Jefferson. The only time I recall the Cards stopping the screen game was with Los and Dwash.

 

[Cardsfaninlouky]

The Jimmy G stuff is actually the plan. SF is a run team and one of the complaints 49er fans have about them is you can almost tell by formation when they're going to run. We loaded the box against them in both games and I think Shanahan was doing what you should do in that situation, throw the ball. He doesn't have a down the field passing attack doesn't yet have the Wrs and that's not what Jimmy G does best, and he didn't have Kittle, so he used tons of screens.

What was stunning is we never figured out how to at least slow it down. I think the screen and TE problem is largely the LB's but with a bit of safety thrown in. But I also think this year the scheme has been a major problem too.

Yes, he threw the ball because we had the box stacked to stop the run. The stats will tell you that we stopped the run. We only stopped the run because they pretty much stopped running it because we couldn't stop their passing game & their top RB was out. They kept passing it hence less runs. Why run when we can't stop their 2nd string TE who until Sunday had like 10 catches for 52 yds on the season. He burned us twice for TDs. We couldn't stop their FB, even after their best WR Sanders left the game for good. I hoped & prayed we could at least hold them to a FG on their last drive but I knew better. Soon as they got that favorable spot for the first down, I knew we were done, I knew it when we went 3 & out right before that possession. Our DL isn't that good, they can get hardly no push up front & we have no chance with our personnel behind them. I'm surprised we ever stop anyone on any series quite honestly, it's like a small miracle. The Bengals (worst team in the NFL) even scored on us 2 or 3 straight drives with their best WR out. Took a miraculous DJ catch & KM scramble to pull that one out. Pathetic. If this defense was even remotely average we could be anywhere between 6-4-1 to 8-3 right now & that's a fact. How a DC can't get a defense to communicate & cover a screen pass or slow down a TE just baffles me. First few games sure...........not 11 games into the season. Unacceptable.

 

[Cardsfaninlouky]

I don't see the value in keeping a DC for stability reasons if they are merely ok. I think Sanders mentioned it should be Kliffs call, which I agree with, but I hope Kliff gets rid of him.

By the way, Spanola called a near identical blitz last night against the chargers that left a DE against a RB while two LB blitzed, Rivers delivered and the RB easily outran the DE for about 40 yards. It's not the call, it's WHEN that play is called, and VJ has a poor sense of when.

If he could get the secondary to at least communicate that would be a start? They look lost still & we only have 5 games left. Making the same mistakes every week. When Dilley (sp) their backup TE, caught the first TD for them, I just shook my head in disbelief. Murphy & Reddick just looked at one another like "who was supposed to be covering him"? At this point, we need to just play sandlot/backyard defense in our secondary, let each player in the back 6-7 call out who is covering who & stay with them. That would be better than what we are watching right now, I honestly believe that. The DL coach for the 49ers (Chris..........? Can't remember his last name) played football at TT with coach KK. That's a name to throw out there. He hasn't even been a DC yet & I bet he could coach our defense during this bye week & get more out of them than VJ?

 

[Cardsfaninlouky]

There's very little talent on that side of the ball. Let's see how he does with better players before we hit the reset button again. I think the real question is whether to give Keim another year.

You're right about the talent deficiency, but he can't even get a body on a body in the secondary & they don't communicate. How do you even play in the secondary if you don't know who you have to cover? If the defense was getting better, I would say because of the lack of talent, give him another yr. They're not. He can't even get them to do the simple correctable things right, that's obvious because they keep making the same mistakes week after week.

 

[Cardsfaninlouky]

We had to sell out against the run. The 49ers will run all over opponents that don't respect Shanny's highly effective zone blocking scheme. Unfortunately our aggressive run defense lead to what will ultimately prove to be Jimmy G's best two games of the season. However, since we hung in there until the very end, it proved to be the right choice. Almost got gifted the W by Jimmy who threw 2 horrible picks as we dared him to air it out.

Our defense can't play balanced. Early on we played more deep coverage and teams ran all over us. Now we play the run more aggressive and get burned through the air. Vance Joseph has to pick his poison. We don't have the players to field a balanced defense. Against the Bucs, we took away their biggest threat Evans and Godwin, or at least limited them compared to what they usually produce. However, we got burned by their RBs and TEs who usually don't do anything. In all cases we had the right gameplan, just fell a bit short in the end. Considering how bad our defense is, at least we had a chance to win it, if the offense would have delivered at the very end. Against the Bucs we had a stupid interception when we were basically in clock-killing mode already. Against the 49ers we scored no points off 2 turnovers that were returned close to or further than midfield.

Vance Joseph isn't flawless, but players are the bigger issue. Give him a more dominant interior DT and a natural ILB next to Hicks, suddenly his scheme won't look that bad anymore.

I'll give you the part about our offense in the TB game, that Int hurt late in the game. The flip side is this. Had our defense not let them drive all the way down the field in 1:05 right before halftime, it wouldn't have even came down to the Int by Murray. Looked like they were taking candy from a baby on that drive. The harsh truth is this. Our offense has flaws, coulda, shoulda, woulda at times but they've kept us in games with a chance to win for the most part. Our defense couldn't stop a college offense at times imo, they don't communicate & don't know who to cover on pass plays a whole lot. That's a problem & falls strictly on the DC. It's his job to put them in a position to succeed. I know we need more talent on defense & I can handle a guy getting burned in pass coverage, as long as he's trying to run with his man. What I can't handle is having our secondary not know who to cover week after week & because of that, seeing guys run wide open on almost every pass play. Again, the DC's job to fix it. Only 5 games left to play & they still look clueless as to who covers who.

 

[JeffGollin]

You're right about the talent deficiency, but he can't even get a body on a body in the secondary & they don't communicate. How do you even play in the secondary if you don't know who you have to cover? If the defense was getting better, I would say because of the lack of talent, give him another yr. They're not. He can't even get them to do the simple correctable things right, that's obvious because they keep making the same mistakes week after week.

Let's remember that this team, with all its deficiencies just came within one blown coverage of beating the division leader.

 

[Cardsfaninlouky]

on the defense against SF: the Cards never made SF try to beat them over the top

I think that wheel routes on 4th down that Reddick broke up, and the one Walker got a PI call on were their longest attempts of the game. Everything else was short, or, a 15 yard crossing route.

I think at some point you have to dare Deebo Samuel to run past you

True, but who would dare him? Our secondary can't even figure out who they have on most passes lol.

 

[Cardsfaninlouky]

Let's remember that this team, with all its deficiencies just came within one blown coverage of beating the division leader.

Yes, thanks to the offense. The defense can't stop anyone. It's so frustrating. Same mistakes week after week. On almost every pass play guys are running wide open against our secondary. Yet I see guys on our defense not covering anyone, just watching the guy run wide open. How does this happen? VJ is not doing a good enough job of fixing this. It's not his fault Reddick is on the team but he should at least know his limits on what he can & can't do at this point? Obviously he doesn't need to be on the field when our opponents are in the red zone. VJ has yet to figure this out.

 

[dscher]

Vance gets out outmatched for three quarters of the game routinely. Things will get better with better personnel obviously... But it doesn't change anything as far as Vance being just another average d coordinator. Jmo

 

[juza76]

Yes a coaching change is a must, I don't think Vance Joseph is the reason the defense sucks in this way but it's part of the problem
Not enough talent yes, but he wasnt able to adjust schematically the unit after 10 games
Repeating always the same mistakes

However the main responsibility is on keim
He just made all the mistakes possible with letting some reliable players goes (Campbell Jefferson golden Josh bynes) and keep making questionable extension where he shouldnt, consequences?
Less cap room less talent

 

[Cardsfaninlouky]

Vance gets out outmatched for three quarters of the game routinely. Things will get better with better personnel obviously... But it doesn't change anything as far as Vance being just another average d coordinator. Jmo

Yeah, that will be even more frustrating. He gets another yr with upgraded personnel, then in a clutch moment, he makes a boneheaded call or someone doesn't know who to cover & we lose a big game. I only see this defense getting better under him with better personnel, not shutdown better, slightly better than this yr. Take for example his explanation of the responsibly of CJ on the last play. He said that he called an all out blitz & CJ wasn't supposed to cover the RB, he was supposed to peel on that play. "What"? Yeah, he peeled right to the ground in one of those "oh $#/+ I'm supposed to cover that guy" moments. He shouldn't be the guy that has to cover on that play, that should be the safety covering the middle of the field. Yet he left that part of the field exposed & made our best pass rusher think he had to drop into coverage if the RB released. Just plain dumb stuff like that will leave us all with an empty/sick feeling in our stomachs after losing close games like that, with even more talent. He is what he is at this point, average DC that makes some head scratching calls.

 

[Cardsfaninlouky]

Yes a coaching change is a must, I don't think Vance Joseph is the reason the defense sucks in this way but it's part of the problem
Not enough talent yes, but he wasnt able to adjust schematically the unit after 10 games
Repeating always the same mistakes

However the main responsibility is on keim
He just made all the mistakes possible with letting some reliable players goes (Campbell Jefferson golden Josh bynes) and keep making questionable extension where he shouldnt, consequences?
Less cap room less talent

I agree. I was so pissed when he let CC walk. Look at Bynes now with the Ravens, he's playing well. He was one of the few bright spots on our defense last season, thought he would have a place on this team? He can cover better than Reddick & cause him to stay on the sideline when our opponents are inside the red zone. Yet no Bynes & we get to watch Reddick just watch his man run right past him for a wide open TD in the red zone.

 

[juza76]

I agree. I was so pissed when he let CC walk. Look at Bynes now with the Ravens, he's playing well. He was one of the few bright spots on our defense last season, thought he would have a place on this team? He can cover better than Reddick & cause him to stay on the sideline when our opponents are inside the red zone. Yet no Bynes & we get to watch Reddick just watch his man run right past him for a wide open TD in the red zone.

Bynes was like a bargain
1 mil for year

 

[dscher]

Yes a coaching change is a must, I don't think Vance Joseph is the reason the defense sucks in this way but it's part of the problem
Not enough talent yes, but he wasnt able to adjust schematically the unit after 10 games
Repeating always the same mistakes

However the main responsibility is on keim
He just made all the mistakes possible with letting some reliable players goes (Campbell Jefferson golden Josh bynes) and keep making questionable extension where he shouldnt, consequences?
Less cap room less talent

Absolutely. These things all start at the tip top. MB needs to look in the mirror as well.. as much as we slam keim, we can't assume to know what happens with MB possibly calling some of these shots and micromanaging everything. I don't know if it's happening. But I could for sure see it with a personality like MBs. So if this is the case.. we are picking at low hanging fruit and not solving anything at the end of the day by just getting rid of guys like Vance or even keim. If MB isn't able to find the next best talent in gm quality and step aside to let him do his job properly...which I highly doubt he can to his full extent... Then it's just gonna be a new face with the same issues we had with keim. Jmo.

 

[cardpa]

I know the personnel on this defense makes it limited to a certain degree on what it can & can't do. I commented on a post yesterday that VJ should get another yr, add some more talent for his defense & see what happens? I've looked at some numbers & thought about it & now I'm not so sure?

His pass defense has given up 29 TD passes this yr, that's insane.

It's week 11 & he still hasn't figured out a way to stop a TE. His defense has given up 12 TD passes to TE's.

His pass defense has given up 9.7 points/game in the 4th quarter this yr & that ranks dead last in the NFL.

In the last 3 games, his defenses have allowed 31 points points combined, during both 2 minute warnings in all 3 games.

It's 11 games in & still the same communication issues with our LB'ERS & secondary. Murphy & Reddick both just looked at one another yesterday, as to who was supposed to cover the TE on the 49ers first TD of the game.

It's 11 games in & he still hasn't taught them how to defend a screen pass. 140 yds of JG's passing total came off of screen passes. One of them he dropped Suggs into coverage on, mind boggling.

JG has 18 TD passes total this yr. 8 of them are against us in 2 games in 3 weeks. The other 10 are against everyone else. Again, mind boggling, no real adjustments from VJ in such a short period of time.

In closing, the offense has issues as well but they have kept us in most games only to be let down by the defense but keeps showing improvement. The defense, especially the secondary has shown no improvement, same communication issues every week. It's gotten to the point for me as a fan, when the other team has the ball, I always think they're going to score. We can't stop anyone. If VJ can't teach this defense how to cover a TE, stop a screen pass or communicate, maybe it's time to cut him loose?

One last thing. I failed to mention the fact he called an all out blitz & had CJ covering a RB in space with the middle of the field totally vacated. One last time, mind boggling.

When you have problems like these this far into the season I am going to venture this is a personnel problem more than a coaching problem. This is usually an indicator that you have personnel that either just don't absorb what is being taught to them or they just free lance too much which leads to more mistakes and blown coverage than there should be.

 

[Cardinal]

When you have problems like these this far into the season I am going to venture this is a personnel problem more than a coaching problem. This is usually an indicator that you have personnel that either just don't absorb what is being taught to them or they just free lance too much which leads to more mistakes and blown coverage than there should be.

Take a look into the history of a Vance Joseph-led defense. Denver fans will attest that they always had problems covering the tight end. VJ is the common denominator.

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[Cardinal]

Interesting tidbit I found, though I’m not sure if it has been said on here already.

Joe Woods was the Broncos DC the last two years under Vance Joseph. He was hired this year by the 49ers as a Defensive Back coach and “Passing Game Coordinator”. He would easily know the weaknesses in a VJ-led defense.