Thoughts on the draft as a whole

[joeshmo]

I thought this, too, but I looked it up, and Palmer's under contract through the 2015 season.

He is under contract for 2015 only as a pure accounting mechanism to spread out bonus over 3 years instead of 2. But there is a trap door in the deal, meaning 5 days after super bowl if he is still on the team his contract is canceled. Either we extended him before then or he is a 2015 free agent.

 

[kerouac9]

He is under contract for 2015 only as a pure accounting mechanism to spread out bonus over 3 years instead of 2. But there is a trap door in the deal, meaning 5 days after super bowl if he is still on the team his contract is canceled. Either we extended him before then or he is a 2015 free agent.

Fair enough. I should've done what I recommend to others which is to actually read the entirety of the OTC.com page for that deal.

Man, unless some lottery tickets get cashed in, this front office isn't going to be able to avoid drafting either a QB or a rush linebacker in 2015.

 

[GuernseyCard]

I thought this, too, but I looked it up, and Palmer's under contract through the 2015 season. His cap number doesn't even go up.

Keim can't help himself when it comes to 3rd round WRs, particularly ones who come from small schools. It's too funny, until you consider the results that he's gotten. Save your signing bonus, kid.

The interesting question for me is how do you gauge "success" from this draft class? We drafted to the most talent-poor positions on our roster, which is a good thing, although it doesn't create a ton of competition or prepare us to jettison aging/expensive/underperforming players.

Bucannon only has to play slightly better than a 35-year-old no one wanted.
Niklas only has to make everyone forget about a former 7th round pick (I'll never forget you, Jimmy).
Martin only needs to beat out two guys who played a combined 186 snaps on defense last year.

IMO, starters who develop from 5th round picks or later are essentially black swan events that happen to most teams with equal frequency. Judge a personnel department by what they do in the first three rounds.

???

Andre Roberts is collecting good coin in Washington.

 

[kerouac9]

???

Andre Roberts is collecting good coin in Washington.

How's that Derek Carr first round campaign going? Did you enjoy the late-first round run in Quarterbacks? Maybe less talking and more listening from you for a little while.

Andre Roberts was nearly cut at the end of his first training camp and lost his starting job, and is another cards 3rd round pick who did not make it to a second contract with the team and was not desired by the team when he reached free agency.

Not exactly the ideal trajectory you would want in a third round pick.

 

[Cheesebeef]

How's that Derek Carr first round campaign going? Did you enjoy the late-first round run in Quarterbacks? Maybe less talking and more listening from you for a little while.

Andre Roberts was nearly cut at the end of his first training camp and lost his starting job, and is another cards 3rd round pick who did not make it to a second contract with the team and was not desired by the team when he reached free agency.

Not exactly the ideal trajectory you would want in a third round pick.

yeesh...someone's a little touchy here. why not just say the second part of this where you actually addressed his response?

 

[kerouac9]

yeesh...someone's a little touchy here. why not just say the second part of this where you actually addressed his response?

Because Geurnsey is consistently wandering around trying to correct people on things--particularly yours truly--and then disappears when he's wrong. Say what you want about my having strong opinions, but I'll come correct when I'm wrong.

I don't like Guernsey; I'm not going to have him call me out on Andre Roberts like I forgot who that dude was. I'm going to take the prerogative for once to ask a guy who never takes a stand and ALWAYS criticizes others to go get his shine box, and I'm not going to talk about it again.

 

[GuernseyCard]

How's that Derek Carr first round campaign going? Did you enjoy the late-first round run in Quarterbacks? Maybe less talking and more listening from you for a little while.

Andre Roberts was nearly cut at the end of his first training camp and lost his starting job, and is another cards 3rd round pick who did not make it to a second contract with the team and was not desired by the team when he reached free agency.

Not exactly the ideal trajectory you would want in a third round pick.

Well, I said three QB's in the first round. Got that right.

And, it remains that Andre Roberts survived and prospered. If I was listening correctly, most believed that he wasn't a great fit here, and given the number of snaps, not a good investment.

I'll try to pay closer attention in future, particularly to your lectures to all on human resource management.

P.S. Who are those other 3rd round receivers?

 

[kerouac9]

Well, I said three QB's in the first round. Got that right.

And, it remains that Andre Roberts survived and prospered. If I was listening correctly, most believed that he wasn't a great fit here, and given the number of snaps, not a good investment.

I'll try to pay closer attention in future, particularly to your lectures to all on human resource management.

P.S. Who are those other 3rd round receivers?

He neither survived nor prospered. If you think that the desire when a team uses a third-round pick on a player is to happily allow him to depart at the end of his first contract, then I don't know what to tell you.

Early Doucet was the other 3rd round WR that Keim has been involved in drafting.

 

[GuernseyCard]

He neither survived nor prospered. If you think that the desire when a team uses a third-round pick on a player is to happily allow him to depart at the end of his first contract, then I don't know what to tell you.

Early Doucet was the other 3rd round WR that Keim has been involved in drafting.

If 4 years $16m (8 guaranteed) in Washington is not the definition of survival and prosperity, then I don't know what to tell you.

(I have the sneaking suspicion that you'd have dumped all over Keim if he'd agreed to that deal)

 

[kerouac9]

If 4 years $16m (8 guaranteed) in Washington is not the definition of survival and prosperity, then I don't know what to tell you.

(I have the sneaking suspicion that you'd have dumped all over Keim if he'd agreed to that deal)

Good for him, but not good for the Arizona Cardinals. I'm not sure what argument that you're making here--perhaps you'd like to put together a thesis and then present evidence in support of that.

When Roberts signed with the Washington Professional Football Club I wished him well and felt good for him. Still do.

In Andre Roberts's contract year, he set or tied career lows in starts (2), yards per catch (11.0), and TDs (2). He had the fewest receptions and yards since his rookie year.

Any attempt to spin Andre Roberts's career as an Arizona Cardinal as a successful one from the Cards' perspective is an exercise in sophistry. Roberts reached free agency and was told politely he was no longer in the Arizona Cardinals plans at any price.

 

[GuernseyCard]

Good for him, but not good for the Arizona Cardinals. I'm not sure what argument that you're making here--perhaps you'd like to put together a thesis and then present evidence in support of that.

When Roberts signed with the Washington Professional Football Club I wished him well and felt good for him. Still do.

In Andre Roberts's contract year, he set or tied career lows in starts (2), yards per catch (11.0), and TDs (2). He had the fewest receptions and yards since his rookie year.

Any attempt to spin Andre Roberts's career as an Arizona Cardinal as a successful one from the Cards' perspective is an exercise in sophistry. Roberts reached free agency and was told politely he was no longer in the Arizona Cardinals plans at any price.

You said: 'He neither survived or prospered.' (end of quote)

I simply responded to that.

No thesis required. His contract stands as proof.

And, you suggesting sophistry by others, is just too funny.

The last paragraph is your exercise in precisely that.

Keep spinning, keep deflecting, and putting words in my mouth.

It's fun, and please be true to yourself and don't forget to add a few condescending lines.



.

 

[Chopper0080]

Fair enough. I should've done what I recommend to others which is to actually read the entirety of the OTC.com page for that deal.

Man, unless some lottery tickets get cashed in, this front office isn't going to be able to avoid drafting either a QB or a rush linebacker in 2015.

Keim has work to do in 2015. As good as I am with our draft this year, it did not do us any favors for the future unless Martin and Thomas really reach their potential fast which I doubt. QB, WR, DE, OLB, CB are all pretty huge holes to figure out in one offseason. If I am guessing right, I'm sure the plan is to extend Palmer and Peterson, restructure Fitz and Dockett, and pray someone steps up at OLB. We will see how it all plays out.

 

[oaken1]

any NBA fans here?? Do y'all remember "small ball"......

it occurs to me that the league in general,...and our division specifically...has moved towards taller, heavier DB's...guys who can go up with the big WR's and also tackle reliably.....the equivalent of your opponent putting all three of their 7 footers in the game......
Cotton Fitzsimmons would counter that by putting in four or five guards, and just run the big dudes into the ground while racking up points on the break.

it looks like BA is attempting the NFL version of this tactic.....why else take small speed guys when there were quality larger WR's like Martavis Bryant still on the board?..... the big DB's cannot jump with a WR they are five yards behind....and they will have a harder time tackling squirrely little dudes with quicks in the open field.

anyway that is what I am guessing....either way it will be nice to finally see someone in a Cards uniform who is faster than everyone else on the field.

 

[Chopper0080]

any NBA fans here?? Do y'all remember "small ball"......

it occurs to me that the league in general,...and our division specifically...has moved towards taller, heavier DB's...guys who can go up with the big WR's and also tackle reliably.....the equivalent of your opponent putting all three of their 7 footers in the game......
Cotton Fitzsimmons would counter that by putting in four or five guards, and just run the big dudes into the ground while racking up points on the break.

it looks like BA is attempting the NFL version of this tactic.....why else take small speed guys when there were quality larger WR's like Martavis Bryant still on the board?..... the big DB's cannot jump with a WR they are five yards behind....and they will have a harder time tackling squirrely little dudes with quicks in the open field.

anyway that is what I am guessing....either way it will be nice to finally see someone in a Cards uniform who is faster than everyone else on the field.

Arians has used these small, slot WRs as vertical threats for years. I don't believe he prefers that size for an entire WR corp, but he is able to get production out of them.

 

[Red Dawn]

Don't thank me, thank K9. He picked it after I lost out avatar draft bet.

The whole board lost that avatar bet, we have to look at it

 

[Chopper0080]

A couple more thoughts from this draft

1-The further we get from the draft, the more and more I feel that it's overall success will determined by the production the Cardinals get out of Kareem Martin.If he is able to push for rotational snaps this year and provide some playmaking production in those snaps, this draft class will excellent.

2-Rounds 1-3 matter. Those are the 6 inch puts that teams need to hit on more than they miss. Yes, teams find players in rounds 4-7, but that occurs less often than most think and most do not become impact players. There are exceptions, but that is generally the rule.

3-With that in mind, you have to be pretty happy with the anticipated opportunities for our rounds 1-3 picks to contribute immediately. Almost all of them come into defined roles that should highlight their strengths and not their weaknesses. Bucannon is a physical box S who will line up in that position and be asked to play man coverage where his size and strength should help cover up his weaknesses. Niklas comes in as a physical TE whose strength is blocking and will be asked to come in and be a powerful blocker up front. Because of the other options on our roster at TE, Niklas won't be asked to be a move or vertical TE until he is ready. Brown is a lightning fast WR who is small and stature and may struggle to get off press coverage. Thankfully he will be asked to run vertical and short routes out of the slot which will highlight his speed and quickness while minimizing his size issues. Martin is the only early pick whose role as an edge player doesn't really match his strengths.

4-Considering most 4-7 round picks fail, here is why I like what we did. We shot for the moon in Logan Thomas. He may never pan out, but if two of the best QB teachers in the business can, Logan Thomas becomes the Cardinals Tom Brady or Russell Wilson. He literally alters the future of this franchise for 10 years. Ed Stinson may never be more than a Frostee Rucker, but in the fifth round, that isn't a terrible thing. Same goes for Walter Powell. He is less developed than Stinson, but if he can turn into a solid STs player, that isn't terrible either.

 

[kerouac9]

...two of the best QB teachers in the business can...

I hate to do this, but can we justify this with facts that don't include Peyton Manning, Ben Roethlisberger, and Andrew Luck? Three generational talents, one of which had a much better season once Arians left and he returned to a more traditional offense.

I don't want to quibble, but it took Carson Palmer 9 months to "master" this offense. Remember how Kevin Kolb spent 4 years learning under a QB whisperer?

 

[Totally_Red]

I hate to do this, but can we justify this with facts that don't include Peyton Manning, Ben Roethlisberger, and Andrew Luck? Three generational talents, one of which had a much better season once Arians left and he returned to a more traditional offense.

I don't want to quibble, but it took Carson Palmer 9 months to "master" this offense. Remember how Kevin Kolb spent 4 years learning under a QB whisperer?

Trent Dilfer, Bill Polian and Mike Mayock all made the comment that Bruce Arians and Tom Moore are two of the best in the business when it comes to quarterbacks and maximizing their ability. That probably doesn't satisfy YOU, but IMO if anyone can develop Logan Thomas, it is Arians, Moore and Freddie Kitchens.

I'm skeptical that Thomas can be transformed from a below average college quarterback into an above average NFL quarterback, but it isn't because he's not in the best situation for him.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

I hate to do this, but can we justify this with facts that don't include Peyton Manning, Ben Roethlisberger, and Andrew Luck? Three generational talents, one of which had a much better season once Arians left and he returned to a more traditional offense.

I don't want to quibble, but it took Carson Palmer 9 months to "master" this offense. Remember how Kevin Kolb spent 4 years learning under a QB whisperer?

Agreed. Also can we please talk about how great a businessman Steve Jobs is without bringing up Apple, Pixar and the Ipod/Iphone?

Also lets discuss how good a coach Phil Jackson was without bringing up the Bulls, Lakers, or any form of his 11 titles.

Maybe we can discuss the Beatles without bringing up the White Album, Abbey Road, Sgt Peppers, Revolver, and Rubber Soul?

What are we playing Taboo here? Clown ish with these comments. Hes only coached those guys for all but 3 years of his career. And in that time (2001-2003) he orchestrated an offense that went to the playoffs with KELLY HOLCOMB AND TIM COUCH.

You are the only one questioing those 2 as two of the great QB minds EVER. Like I said I dont take it too seriously thinking you actually believe some of the nonesense you type. ASFN Contrarian and Provacatuer. Nothing more and nothing less.

 

[kerouac9]

Trent Dilfer, Bill Polian and Mike Mayock all made the comment that Bruce Arians and Tom Moore are two of the best in the business when it comes to quarterbacks and maximizing their ability. That probably doesn't satisfy YOU, but IMO if anyone can develop Logan Thomas, it is Arians, Moore and Freddie Kitchens.

I'm skeptical that Thomas can be transformed from a below average college quarterback into an above average NFL quarterback, but it isn't because he's not in the best situation for him.

Well, Curtis Painter and Byron Leftwich really agree with you.

Agreed. Also can we please talk about how great a businessman Steve Jobs is without bringing up Apple, Pixar and the Ipod/Iphone?

Also lets discuss how good a coach Phil Jackson was without bringing up the Bulls, Lakers, or any form of his 11 titles.

Maybe we can discuss the Beatles without bringing up the White Album, Abbey Road, Sgt Peppers, Revolver, and Rubber Soul?

What are we playing Taboo here? Clown ish with these comments. Hes only coached those guys for all but 3 years of his career. And in that time (2001-2003) he orchestrated an offense that went to the playoffs with KELLY HOLCOMB AND TIM COUCH.

You are the only one questioing those 2 as two of the great QB minds EVER. Like I said I dont take it too seriously thinking you actually believe some of the nonesense you type. ASFN Contrarian and Provacatuer. Nothing more and nothing less.

Yes, Steve Jobs inherited the iPhone, and had nothing to do with it. It landed right in his lap just like Peyton Manning and Andrew Luck landed in the lap of Arians and Moore.

And remember how sales of the iPhone increased more than 10% after Steve Jobs died? That's just like Andrew Luck's completion percentage once Bruce Arians came here.

You're really reaching for a counter-argument if you have to go this far afield.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

Well, Curtis Painter and Byron Leftwich really agree with you.



Yes, Steve Jobs inherited the iPhone, and had nothing to do with it. It landed right in his lap just like Peyton Manning and Andrew Luck landed in the lap of Arians and Moore.

And remember how sales of the iPhone increased more than 10% after Steve Jobs died? That's just like Andrew Luck's completion percentage once Bruce Arians came here.

You're really reaching for a counter-argument if you have to go this far afield.

Perfect. Now we all understand that Steve Job was overrated, the Beatles sucked, and Phil Jackson couldnt coach his way out of a paper bag. Its the perfect k9 argument:

"No no my friends what you see in front you and the actual results are meaningless because of this obscure PFF stat i found that says otherwise"

 

[Denny Green Fan]

Nice work chopper. I wonder if Beasley would of came out he would of been

the pick? I was very happy with this draft. My only complaint was taking

Logan Thomas over Bradford who went the very next pick.

 

[dylanbw]

any NBA fans here?? Do y'all remember "small ball"......

it occurs to me that the league in general,...and our division specifically...has moved towards taller, heavier DB's...guys who can go up with the big WR's and also tackle reliably.....the equivalent of your opponent putting all three of their 7 footers in the game......
Cotton Fitzsimmons would counter that by putting in four or five guards, and just run the big dudes into the ground while racking up points on the break.

it looks like BA is attempting the NFL version of this tactic.....why else take small speed guys when there were quality larger WR's like Martavis Bryant still on the board?..... the big DB's cannot jump with a WR they are five yards behind....and they will have a harder time tackling squirrely little dudes with quicks in the open field.

anyway that is what I am guessing....either way it will be nice to finally see someone in a Cards uniform who is faster than everyone else on the field.

This is a good angle.Ginn and John Brown could really hit some deep ball home runs from Carson. Powell will have a battle with Jaron Brown, unless we keep 6 WR which seems unlikely.

 

[BigRedRage]

I've seen my Cougs play 11 times the past two years on the PAC-12 Network. I could have seen more if I watched the replays.

well in your photo your eyes are very squinted so I am not sure if you are really seeing things the way they are.

 

[TJ]

Trent Dilfer, Bill Polian and Mike Mayock all made the comment that Bruce Arians and Tom Moore are two of the best in the business when it comes to quarterbacks and maximizing their ability. That probably doesn't satisfy YOU, but IMO if anyone can develop Logan Thomas, it is Arians, Moore and Freddie Kitchens.

I'm skeptical that Thomas can be transformed from a below average college quarterback into an above average NFL quarterback, but it isn't because he's not in the best situation for him.

BA and Moore have a such a solid track record of success with QBs that if Thomas doesn't develop, it's more of an issue with Thomas than with the coaching staff. They have earned that distinction, which is echoed by more intelligent people than message board posters and MMQBs.

I seem to recall that last season, 95% of posters here wanted Palmer benched by Week 6 +/-, and Arians and Moore spit in all of our faces and kept riding with him. Palmer eventually figured out the offense and had a better 2nd half of the season.

Or we can bring back Mike Miller to run the offense and Rod Graves to recruit talent......