Time for a new RB!

[Russ Smith]

Williams will be traded, but not this season. He'll be in a new uni come next year, though.

Jacobs? The Giants won't trade him. There's a much better chance they'd trade Barber, IMO.

And for Chris Perry--see Barber. Perry is the futre in Cinci. He'll be the back toting the ball in the SB in a couple of years, not Johnson.

yep, good young RB's are rarely traded in the NFL, that's why I was so pushy last year about LaMont Jordan he appeared to be the rare one that was available. he's even said as a Raider that it worked out well for him that he wasn't traded since he might not have had as much input on where he went(ie he might have been a Cardinal!).

IF there were one young RB in the NFL right now who I was really intrigued by it would be the kid in San Diego backing up LT, Michael Turner. 2nd year, 237 pounds, fast, 5.2 YPC last year(only 3.3 so far this year), but 8.9 YPC in the preseason (222 in 25 carries).

Why would San Diego trade him? Because they have LT, and because Turner is not the ideal backup RB, he doesn't seem to catch the ball all that well so they can't rest LT on passing downs, they haven't used him on KO returns much apparently he doesn't do well there(catching the ball?), so you have a kid who is essentially not doing anything but waiting for LT to come out of the game.

I have no idea if he's available or what it would take but he's sort of a poor man's Jordan to me he appears to have a chance to be a very productive RB but he's stuck behind the single best player in the NFL IMHO.

 

[duckfallas]

How many former O lineman have gone on to start somewhere else? Not since ******* Buddy Ryan blew up the best O line the Cards have had in Arizona has an O lineman left here and gone on to do well with another team. At least I can't think of any. But I can think of plenty of RBs, LBs, QBs, etc who have left here and done well somewhere else.

It has been 10+ years of Cardinal O line futility. I hoped things might get better with this guy coming in from KC, but he has not had much impact at all. If anything, this line is worse than last years. No fundamantal, run blocking skills at all. That speaks to poor coaching, and poor conditioning too. You either kick the other guys ass or he kicks yours on a running play. This O line gets its ass kicked on pretty much every running play.

 

[Russ Smith]

How many former O lineman have gone on to start somewhere else? Not since ******* Buddy Ryan blew up the best O line the Cards have had in Arizona has an O lineman left here and gone on to do well with another team. At least I can't think of any. But I can think of plenty of RBs, LBs, QBs, etc who have left here and done well somewhere else.

It has been 10+ years of Cardinal O line futility. I hoped things might get better with this guy coming in from KC, but he has not had much impact at all. If anything, this line is worse than last years. No fundamantal, run blocking skills at all. That speaks to poor coaching, and poor conditioning too. You either kick the other guys ass or he kicks yours on a running play. This O line gets its ass kicked on pretty much every running play.

Agreed that's a very accurate way to judge talent too, if they can play somewhere else they will, and very few of our OL's seem to. I think Braham is still with the Bengals and a few others but in general if an OL can't make it here, he's out of football.

 

[cardpa]

The question in my mind is how did an over the hill broken down RB by the name of Emmitt Smith manage to gain over 900 yds last year (while missing a couple of games) behind what was essentially a line that was no better than this year's line?

The line probably contributes some to the running problems however the backs must also be part of the problem. Good backs seem to find the smallest crease in the line and manage to get 2-3 yds and in a good number of times more than 3 yds.

We just don't have backs that have that abiltiy. They need an actual hole to produce positive yardage. I recall when I saw highlights of JJ the very first thing I noticed was how easily he went down on first contact. The only way the Cards are going to get any production is to use JJ in the same way Terry Metcalf was used. JJ needs to have 50-70 receptions a year to be effective. The coaching staff not playing to JJ's strenghts.

 

[Russ Smith]

The question in my mind is how did an over the hill broken down RB by the name of Emmitt Smith manage to gain over 900 yds last year (while missing a couple of games) behind what was essentially a line that was no better than this year's line?

.

Some of that I agree with Emmitt was pretty special even at his age when it came to finding creases and getting yards. Remember that's why Green named him the starter before Shipp got hurt, I think Green said seam running was the primary reason.

I would say the right side of the OL is CONSIDERABLY weaker this year than it was last year, especially after we replaced AC with Shelton and put in Bridges at RG. Bridges wasn't anything special but I think he was much less misake prone than Brown. IN the 49er game I was amazed at how many times brown's guy got a free run into the backfield, when he gets his block he's quite impressive, but he whiffs a lot too.

Obviously also the C position was terrible the first couple of weeks and is slowly getting better.

There's no question the RB's are part of the problem but I still say I saw more unblocked defenders in the SF game than in any game I've seen in awhile and people seemed to be saying the blocking was BETTER in that game than in the Giants game. Even Green has said the run blocking has been bad.

 

[duckfallas]

Starting players like Elton Brown is a mistake. I said he wasn't ready in the preseason and he still isn't ready. He is a good player if he gets his mitts into you, but he misses with those mitts way too often. Typical for a rookie.

Maybe all of this early starting will pay off in another season or two but it sucks to have to watch it right now. These young guys should be learning from their mistakes in practice and not real games.

 

[cardpa]

I will concede that the right side is probably worst than last year. It still doesn't explain why we can't run to the left side.

The biggest thing I see our RBs don't have that the better ones have is the ability to adjust when the hole or seam that is suppose to be there doesn't materialize. Maybe the assigned hole isn't there but the good backs find one that is there.

None of our backs have the ability to change speed and direction in one step and then burst through the hole. I think speed is overrated and quickness is a greater asset than pure speed and balance.

 

[Duckjake]

How many former O lineman have gone on to start somewhere else? Not since ******* Buddy Ryan blew up the best O line the Cards have had in Arizona has an O lineman left here and gone on to do well with another team. At least I can't think of any. But I can think of plenty of RBs, LBs, QBs, etc who have left here and done well somewhere else.

It has been 10+ years of Cardinal O line futility. I hoped things might get better with this guy coming in from KC, but he has not had much impact at all. If anything, this line is worse than last years. No fundamantal, run blocking skills at all. That speaks to poor coaching, and poor conditioning too. You either kick the other guys ass or he kicks yours on a running play. This O line gets its ass kicked on pretty much every running play.

If you throw out guys lost because of Ryan you have to disregard Garrison Hearst who the Cards lost because of the mess Ryan made of the salcap.

So that leaves two backs that everyone includes in "having success somewhere else" Pittman and TJones. Pittman really didn't do much more in Tampa than he did in Arizona, TJones hadn't really done anything spectacular until this season and was let go by Tampa as well. Ironically both their current teams were so happy with their production that they drafted RB's early in the first round this year.

The Cards problems running the football go back to the 1980's. They have not had a back rush for as many as 1100 yards in a season since OJ Anderson in 1984. Their leading rushers have been a litany of who's that: Earl Ferrel-A fullback!, Stump Mitchell, LeShon Johnson, Johnny Johnson, Ron Moore,Leland McElroy,Marcel and Pittman. Except for Pittman's Super Bowl performance I don't recall any of them doing anything especially noteworthy after leaving the Cardinals.

For 20 years the Cards have not had a premier RB and it shows in the results.

Oh well,I can see that this is a chicken or the egg deal and the only way we will ever find out the answer is if the Cards get a big time RB. Since that is unlikely to happen anytime soon we'll never know.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

So that leaves two backs that everyone includes in "having success somewhere else" Pittman and TJones. Pittman really didn't do much more in Tampa than he did in Arizona, TJones hadn't really done anything spectacular until this season and was let go by Tampa as well. Ironically both their current teams were so happy with their production that they drafted RB's early in the first round this year.

Very good point!

 

[TheCardFan]

And for Chris Perry--see Barber. Perry is the futre in Cinci. He'll be the back toting the ball in the SB in a couple of years, not Johnson.

Did Rudi sign a long term deal or the franchise tender?

 

[TheCardFan]

Starting players like Elton Brown is a mistake. I said he wasn't ready in the preseason and he still isn't ready. He is a good player if he gets his mitts into you, but he misses with those mitts way too often. Typical for a rookie.

Totally disagree...he is the 2nd best lineman on our team and will gain huge benefits for playing this year.

 

[D-Dogg]

TJones hadn't really done anything spectacular until this season and was let go by Tampa as well.

TJ had a great season last year too...it was an insult for Chicago to draft CB after TJ's production last year.

 

[duckfallas]

I will concede that the right side is probably worst than last year. It still doesn't explain why we can't run to the left side.

The left side has sucked this year too. Big is not having a good year and Wells seems to have hit his ceiling. This whole line has regressed from last year. Did anyone really expect them to be good after watching 4 preseason games? I didn't.

The O line is getting better and will get better over the 2 week break. Happens every season. They'll come out and run the ball better and beat Tennessee, then win another game or two to stay on the playoff bubble throughout the middle of the season to give us all some hope, then rip our hearts out in December. Same thing as last year. The frustrating thing is, 8 or 9 wins will take this division and the Cards were capable of that this season. Still might be if they can put a run together and learn how to win on the road.

 

[Duckjake]

TJ had a great season last year too...it was an insult for Chicago to draft CB after TJ's production last year.

Emmit Smith had a better season last year than Jones. TJones had a decent year but again not much better than what Shipp did in 2002. So I wouldn't call it a great season.

THIS year Jones is having a great season.

In doing some of this research one thing I noticed that has been a Cardinal problem for years is not giving one guy the majority of the carries. It seems they always have two backs with one getting 16 carries and the other guy 7. Again you have to go back to Anderson in the 80's for a RB who has had 300 carries in a season.

 

[Russ Smith]

Emmit Smith had a better season last year than Jones. TJones had a decent year but again not much better than what Shipp did in 2002. So I wouldn't call it a great season.

THIS year Jones is having a great season.

Huh? Jones had more yards in less carries for a higher YPC, only 2 less TD's, and did it playing essentially the whole year without an NFL QB playing. People forget the bulk of their season was either Krenzel or Hutchison starting at QB, not easy to run when teams laugh at your passing game and QB.

That he's doing it again this year with Orton starting is even more impressive, his numbers are up, with a rookie QB.

 

[D-Dogg]

Emmit Smith had a better season last year than Jones. TJones had a decent year but again not much better than what Shipp did in 2002. So I wouldn't call it a great season.

I guess you are discounting his 56 catches for 427 then. 1400 all purpose yards in 14 games with absolutely no passing threat is a pretty damn good season.

 

[earthsci]

Huh? Jones had more yards in less carries for a higher YPC, only 2 less TD's, and did it playing essentially the whole year without an NFL QB playing. People forget the bulk of their season was either Krenzel or Hutchison starting at QB, not easy to run when teams laugh at your passing game and QB.

That he's doing it again this year with Orton starting is even more impressive, his numbers are up, with a rookie QB.

dohh!

 

[Duckjake]

I guess you are discounting his 56 catches for 427 then. 1400 all purpose yards in 14 games with absolutely no passing threat is a pretty damn good season.

That's still not as good as what Emmit did. Smith was 85 years old and playing for the Cardinals.

 

[D-Dogg]

That's still not as good as what Emmit did. Smith was 85 years old and playing for the Cardinals.

Wrong. TJ had the same yardage on the ground as Emmitt, one LESS game played, higher YPC, fewer carries, two fewer TDs and 300 more receiving yards than arguably the best running back of all time.

Yeah, pretty good season.

The bears were as abysmal as the cardinals...

 

[BigDavis75]

The left side has sucked this year too. Big is not having a good year and Wells seems to have hit his ceiling. This whole line has regressed from last year. Did anyone really expect them to be good after watching 4 preseason games? I didn't.

The O line is getting better and will get better over the 2 week break. Happens every season. They'll come out and run the ball better and beat Tennessee, then win another game or two to stay on the playoff bubble throughout the middle of the season to give us all some hope, then rip our hearts out in December. Same thing as last year. The frustrating thing is, 8 or 9 wins will take this division and the Cards were capable of that this season. Still might be if they can put a run together and learn how to win on the road.

I had to jump on this one, 0 sacks allowed and 0 holding penalties is a bad year? Back to the subject our problem in the O-Line obviously, JJ has shown flashes but flashes don't help when you're getting blown up every other play. Marcel was awful last game, he danced way too much. AZ has always had a RB problem and will for a while. I can see JJ as a 800-300 guy, but not a grat deal more. Our O-Line coaching is awful, we finally learn to pick up stunts 5 games into the season WTF??? This all sums up to a crap running game. Crap. Crap. Crap.

 

[WildBB]

OJ Simpson in a revved up white Bronco, wouldn't average more than 3 yards per carry behind this line. Correct the o-line problems, and then and only then... will we know whether Shipp and JJ are the problem.

Yea - it's too early to pronounce judgement on Arrington. He's ripped off a couple so far. This O-line is horrible at run blocking. It should be the left sides (Davis and Wells') strength! I can't figure out why we canb't run left behind those two. I went to the Carolina game and Brown looked SLOW. Forget about him ever pulling!

 

[Duckjake]

Wrong. TJ had the same yardage on the ground as Emmitt, one LESS game played, higher YPC, fewer carries, two fewer TDs and 300 more receiving yards than arguably the best running back of all time.

Yeah, pretty good season.

The bears were as abysmal as the cardinals...

So he averaged HALF a yard per carry-less than 9 yards a game- more and scored fewer TD's than a 35 year old playing on an awful offense that featured, a new HC and OC, 3 different QB's and had one of it's two main receivers miss 6 games.

Another comparison would be to Shipp's 2002 season.

Shipp, an UNDRAFTED FREE AGENT, had 834 yds. 4.4ypc 6TD's rushing and 38 rec for 413 yds and 3 TD's.

Jones in '04 had lower ypc, only 1 more TD rushing and 18 more recpts for only 14 more yards and no TD's.

The Cards ranked 29th in points and 27th in yards in 2002. Jake completed less than 54% of his passes and Boston was the leading receiver with only 512 yards. So the Cards and Bears were almost equally awful on offense.

If you guys think those kind of seasons that can be accomplished by UDFA's and 35 year olds on their last legs are "great" then there is no sense in going on with this discussion because we obviously are using different definitions.

 

[Russ Smith]

If you guys think those kind of seasons that can be accomplished by UDFA's and 35 year olds on their last legs are "great" then there is no sense in going on with this discussion because we obviously are using different definitions.

All well and good but I only objected because you said LAST YEAR that Jones had a worse season than Emmitt Smith, and he didn't. As bad as our Qb's were last year you really think Krenzel would have played a down here ahead of any of them? Hutchinson is still out of football. the Bears leading Wr was Terrell, who they released this offseason and who I believe is currently a Bronco, and Bobby Wade, Jones led them in catches and was 3rd in yardage on the team receiving. He was the only RB on the roster to average more than 3.3 YPC. THe Bears averaged 137 yards passing per game last year, dead last in the NFL, 43 yards per game less than we did, they had zero passing game and yet Jones still put up the numbers he put up.

Nobody is saying Jones is a pro bowl RB, just saying that claiming Emmitt had a better year than him is hyperbole, he didn't, Jones clearly had a better year in even worse circumstances. I really never understood why they took Benson, they clearly had more pressing needs at so many other positions.

 

[earthsci]

If you guys think those kind of seasons that can be accomplished by UDFA's and 35 year olds on their last legs are "great" then there is no sense in going on with this discussion because we obviously are using different definitions.

DJ,
I'm not making an arguement that Shipp is great, he's ok. That's all. What I'm saying is that I don't really think that we know what we have in Arrington and if we don't get blocking for him we won't know if he's a bust or a Thomas Jones example. Someone who is pretty decent but can't get started. If we had drafted Cadillac Williams (if we had the chance) he would't be doing nearly as well here as he is in Tampa. Look at all of the "great" running backs that have played in Denver. Good blocking, they run for a 1000, they sign somewhere else as a FA, they do nothing.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

Yet I believe that our running game would improve greatly if Big was playing LG instead of LT. He is playing well protecting the QB's weakside, but the middle of the line needs to be shored up before the ends.

Start Big at LG instead.