Time table for KT

[Gaddabout]

Players creating their own shot off the dribble are usually considered face-up players from 16-feet and out. It's usually one of the criteria scouts use to grade guards.

Elton is not a guy who creates space for his shot by putting the ball on the floor. He doesn't have to. If he's going to shoot, he can shoot over pretty much anyone, anyway.

 

[Tank]

I can't believe we're having this discussion

I agree...

Everything Eric has said is correct... End of story...

 

[nowagimp]

Players creating their own shot off the dribble are usually considered face-up players from 16-feet and out. It's usually one of the criteria scouts use to grade guards.

Elton is not a guy who creates space for his shot by putting the ball on the floor. He doesn't have to. If he's going to shoot, he can shoot over pretty much anyone, anyway.

So only guards can be evaled on creating their shots off the dribble. Can Duncan create off the dribble? By that standard, no he cant. Shaq cant either, and yet they make alot of unassisted baskets as well as creating shots for others. When Brand puts the ball on the floor and moves towards the lane the defense closes in to try to contest the shot and then he can drive past it(hence the double), creating space for the short pull up shot. Thats why the suns try to force him baseline, not because he can shoot over them, cause he can do that from the baseline anyway. He just cant drive left, so they force him to the baseline. He also had 8 assists out of the low post last game so he was creating a shot for others as well.

 

[nowagimp]

What player in the NBA score 25 ppg and "cannot create his own shot off the dribble"?

Shaquille O'Neal. Zach Randolph doesn't score 25 per game, but he's close. Barkley in his prime. Webber pre-injury.

What legitimate PF in the NBA is quicker? KG(no), Duncan(no), Rasheed(no), who?

Garnett is quicker, yes. Maybe you don't consider him a "legitimate PF." Stoudemire pre-injury, much quicker. Kenyon Martin pre-injury, also quicker, although not nearly as adept a scorer.

Imagine, the suns are constantly doubling a guy -after he puts the ball on the floor- who cant create his own shot off the dribble and He's shooting 54% FG's.

I'm sorry, I don't understand your point. I'm not knocking Brand's offensive prowess. It's formidable, to say the least. The Suns double him once he puts the ball on the floor from his post in the low block (or sometimes before). He's scoring off of footwork, not dribble-handling.

Hmm, Garnett is quicker than Brand, thats a HUGE stretch. Garnett is many things, but this super quick eval is puzzling, but I guess all the salivating over the prospect of duping the wolves in a trade is getting to everyones head. If anything, KG is the one who shoots over everyone. Agreed, Stoudemire, pre-injury was the quickest PF in the history of the game, so yeah HE was MUCH quicker than Brand. But there are few currently playing PF's that are as quick as Brand. What I find puzzling is how many people totally disagree with what are basically NBA scouting reports based on what scouts have seen with their own eyes. You guys should all be scouts, obviously you are better than them.

 

[SirStefan32]

Hmm, Garnett is quicker than Brand, thats a HUGE stretch. Garnett is many things, but this super quick eval is puzzling,

Are you freaking serious? Garnett is probably the quickest power forward that I have ever seen.

I love Brand- he has always been one of my favorite players in the NBA, but to claim that Garnett is NOT quicker than him is just insane.

 

[nowagimp]

Are you freaking serious? Garnett is probably the quickest power forward that I have ever seen.

I love Brand- he has always been one of my favorite players in the NBA, but to claim that Garnett is NOT quicker than him is just insane.

Just going by the fact that Elton had less problems with Amare's quickness than Garnett, who Amare shredded as a rookie for 38 pts off the dribble scoring at the rim, and it was all quickness. Amare, Elton, Kmart were all quicker than KG. Steven freaking hunter was not outquicked by KG, he covered him real well as I remember(no length advantage, harder to shoot over).

 

[HooverDam]

nowagimp, elindholm is right. You are misunderstanding the generally accepted term "off the dribble." Having your back to the basket, backing someone down, while dribbling is NOT creating a shot "off the dribble"- its a post play.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

I have to agree with SirStefan32.

Garnett is not much quicker than Brand, but he is IMO. It is at least debatable. Brand is deceptively quick for a PF, especially this year. Brand is tearing us a new one in this year's playoffs, but most PF's do that against the Suns anyway.

To say that Brand is clearly quicker to Garnett shows that you do not know very much about either one of them.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Hmm, Garnett is quicker than Brand, thats a HUGE stretch.

wow man - you continue to lose credibility with every post you write.

That being said, Brand is very quick on his feet this year, but he's not as quick as KG.

Bottom line - who cares. We can't stop him no matter what his game is. Must be like Spurs and Mavs fans watching Amare last year.

 

[elindholm]

Just going by the fact that Elton had less problems with Amare's quickness than Garnett

That's not really relevant. I remember a game in which Olowokandi smothered Stoudemire, all game long, but that doesn't mean that Olowokandi is particularly quick.

 

[nowagimp]

wow man - you continue to lose credibility with every post you write.

That being said, Brand is very quick on his feet this year, but he's not as quick as KG.

Bottom line - who cares. We can't stop him no matter what his game is. Must be like Spurs and Mavs fans watching Amare last year.

As the playoffs continue on and many 'experts' miss the keys, its obvious to me that credibility can only be granted by those with credibility. Very few posters here have had much insight in these NBA playoffs. The Marion bashers still havent figured out that shawns game, and that of most low post players depends on the ability of the shooters to hit shots on the perimeter. Who predicted Mavs over the spurs? Who predicted the suns moves in the off season would be even moderately successful. Almost all posters here thought the suns were dead after stat became injured. A bunch more said KT was not going to help the suns after 15 games. A whole lot more thought TT was a bum. Most thought Raja was a bad signing at 5 mil. If I have no credibility, I should feel right at home here.

Garnett is rated by Insidehoops among others as "quick on offense in the low post". Problem is, he's also criticized there for "not being strong enough to play down there". Out on the floor, where he PLAYS as a small forward, is where I differ with the quickness aspect. He is relatively quick for his 7 feet, certainly, but not so quick for a 6' 7" or 6'8" player. He had to defend Stat out there(on the floor) and it didnt work. Garnett, like Marion is a 30% career 3pt shooter, so all this talk about him being a great shot is overstated as well. I like Garnetts passing, rebounding and defense and would definitely not mind if the suns would take him off the wolves hands but, dream on.

By the way Brand is rated for excellent footwork(Eric) but also for being a threat driving to the hoop, pulling up or finishing, which by definition is creating "ones own shot" off the dribble. I dont know what anyone elses definition is but mine is that if you dont need a screen or an assist to get your shot, it means that you can create your own.

 

[elindholm]

Insidehoops is a fan site, just like this one. Why do you give it more credibility than what you read here? I couldn't even find scouting reports on it, but if you post exactly what it says about Brand, I'll be happy to respond to it.

You're right that many people on this board are often incorrect with their predictions and speculation. Of course, that has nothing to do with the topic at hand. Neither does Garnett's three-point shooting; I can't for the life of me figure out why you decided to bring that up.

 

[Cheesebeef]

You're right that many people on this board are often incorrect with their predictions and speculation. Of course, that has nothing to do with the topic at hand. Neither does Garnett's three-point shooting; I can't for the life of me figure out why you decided to bring that up.

it's called "grasping at straws".

 

[Gaddabout]

I like this stat: When Garnett is on the floor, the opposing team scores 10 fewer points per 48 minutes.

http://www.82games.com/comm1.htm

 

[zett]

I read this thread to see how kurt is doing, is garnett helping him in some way!

 

[TucsonDevil]

I read this thread to see how kurt is doing, is garnett helping him in some way!

 

[Gaddabout]

Almost all posters here thought the suns were dead after stat became injured. A bunch more said KT was not going to help the suns after 15 games. A whole lot more thought TT was a bum. Most thought Raja was a bad signing at 5 mil. If I have no credibility, I should feel right at home here.

Generalizations aren't helping your credibility. Which of us fall under these categories? I can't speak for everyone, but other than thinking the Suns were cooked when Amare was injured, I stood on pretty much opposite ground on the other issues.

 

[nowagimp]

Generalizations aren't helping your credibility. Which of us fall under these categories? I can't speak for everyone, but other than thinking the Suns were cooked when Amare was injured, I stood on pretty much opposite ground on the other issues.

Congrats I'll take your word for it, for being able to evaluate the talent on this team prior to the season. Heres the rub, no one here is rated for being correct by anyone other than themselves. Everyones statements are in the posts of the past, but its awful time consuming and pretty anal to go and objectively evaluate everyones "credibility". Many posters here assign their own credibility, as outstanding of course. If I say KG is not that quick cause he cant take steven hunter off the dribble, or cant guard amare off the dribble, its subjective, but guys that are quick on the perimerter dont need to turn their backs on the defender at 17 feet out cause if you play them close they will drive to the hoop. The really quick ones can even beat the doubleteam in that situation. If that hurts my credibility here, oh well, I guess it wasnt real anyway. Question: does Marions performance last night hurt the Marion haters creds?

This is an entertaining medium, with alot of interesting scuttlebut, and SOME apparently knowledgable posters. I do not need to be validated by anyone here, I dont do this for a living, and if I wanted to learn more about basketball strategy or talent evaluation, I would listen to an NBA coach or scout. They are not all correct, but they do know that failure of the suns outside shooters is the reason that Shawn Marion cannot consistently get inside for his hustle points. NBA professionals also know that putting a small forward on a center or a PF always creates a serious matchup problem. Artest cant do it , prince cant do it, bowen cant do it, but some ASFN posters think Marion is inferior 'cause he cant do it. They(NBA professionals) do appear to be correct, as Marion shredded the clips when the outside shots fell last night. It has been true in almost every game in the postseason: the shooters(more than 1) hit their open looks, the lane opens up and Marion runs free, they start missing, Dunleavy adjusts the defensive collapse into the lane. I have watched almost all the NBA playoff games and no team has shot more inconsistently from the outside, and the suns were the best outside shooting team in the regular season. I have read many anti-Marion threads, and did not notice this even expressed by his supporters. Where is everyone getting their basketball knowledge? Anyone who had the sound up on the TV would have heard the Marion discussions over the last week or so. Where is the credibility? Its here, but its obviously not all that widespread.

I dont care to point out ignorant statements by individual posters. You would have to read the thread not to take comments out of context. Everyone is entitled to a few mistakes, and pointing the finger doesnt solve anything. I dont care to attack anyones perception of their own credibility, especially if it seems real important to them. After watching shawn take apart the clippers last night, its obvious that some of the shrill criticisms of shawn just within the last few days were just plain ignorant. I'll bet he's averaging his "season numbers" now, after 12 games, so all those observations were short sighted at best.

 

[Gaddabout]

I'm in the center of the Marion debate. I agree with you that some of his critics are very short-sighted. He's being asked to do more than what he's capable of doing, and sometimes he climbs that mountain to the disbelief of all of us.

On the other hand, my beef with Marion is not really with Marion at all, but the burden his $14 million salary puts on the organization. This is the NBA reality -- if you make that kind of money, you better produce at that money level. There are no excuses for a max contract player, not even one playing way out of position. You don't get to disappear when it counts.

So this is not about disrespecting a player who lays it all on the line. The Suns have a long history of falling in love with guys like that. Majerle and Ty Corbin come to mind as fan favorites. Marion is right in line with those guys, except for the fact he's the highest paid player on the team. I absolutely love his game except for that single fact.

 

[nowagimp]

I'm in the center of the Marion debate. I agree with you that some of his critics are very short-sighted. He's being asked to do more than what he's capable of doing, and sometimes he climbs that mountain to the disbelief of all of us.

On the other hand, my beef with Marion is not really with Marion at all, but the burden his $14 million salary puts on the organization. This is the NBA reality -- if you make that kind of money, you better produce at that money level. There are no excuses for a max contract player, not even one playing way out of position. You don't get to disappear when it counts.

So this is not about disrespecting a player who lays it all on the line. The Suns have a long history of falling in love with guys like that. Majerle and Ty Corbin come to mind as fan favorites. Marion is right in line with those guys, except for the fact he's the highest paid player on the team. I absolutely love his game except for that single fact.

And I agree as well about the salary problem, but there are many max contract players, like Kobe, who when they dont win, everyone says "its his supporting cast". Marion doesnt get that excuse, regardless of the 4,5 going down and him playing out of position. And now Amare has a max contract, and we dont even know if he's going to be a max player when he comes back. To add a relatively old KG(32-33) at 20 million to that mix and subtract Marion just seems to make the "Marion contract problem" even worse. Thats 35 mil per going to a superstar on the downside and a potential superstar coming off injury. Add Nash at 32 and you have 45 mil going to three players. I think I might rather just have TT plus Marion(same price) for the time being, and develop more talent. The suns with KT, TT, Marion, Diaw(part time), Amare up front sounds good enough to win next year with Diaw(part time), Barbs, Nash, Bell in the backcourt.

 

[SactownSunsFan]

I read this thread to see how kurt is doing, is garnett helping him in some way!

So did I. Take this Garnett talk to a new thread, please.

 

[elindholm]

To add a relatively old KG(32-33) at 20 million to that mix and subtract Marion just seems to make the "Marion contract problem" even worse.

Just out of curiosity, how does Garnett get a year older every time you mention his name? In fact he is less than two years older than Marion.

 

[JAndrews]

I am glad to see an update for this dude. IMO a healthy KT will help this team. He will come off the bench and be another big man in the PF C positions, not for his scoring but for rebounds and defense. Put Marion back to SF and I bet you will see more production from Marion and more rebounds, not to say 6 more fouls if need be. I think KT back with definitely help this team 10 - 15 minutes a game. You will see. KT will not need to run the floor like Nash and other guards and forwards. HE will help.

 

[arthurracoon]

I am glad to see an update for this dude. IMO a healthy KT will help this team. He will come off the bench and be another big man in the PF C positions, not for his scoring but for rebounds and defense. Put Marion back to SF and I bet you will see more production from Marion and more rebounds, not to say 6 more fouls if need be. I think KT back with definitely help this team 10 - 15 minutes a game. You will see. KT will not need to run the floor like Nash and other guards and forwards. HE will help.

especially the part about 6 more fouls.

that allows marion, TT, and Diaw to stay out of foul trouble.

 

[jibikao]

Hopefully we can pass this round and KT then returns!!! Oh yeah, baby.