Top 10 QB's (merged threads)

[BigRedFan]

I would put him in the 8-10 range or just outside 10. If he just cuts down on the INTs to about 14 or 15 from 20+ he would go higher.

 

[Russ Smith]

What's with the Penington lovefest? The guy isn't that good, he struggles with his mid range passing and is very inconsistnet.

The question on him is his rotator cuff. The reality is Pennington is perfect in that Jet offense, he doesn't have the big arm but he's so accurate he still moves the sticks.

Last year people kept saying things like teams have figured him out, theyr'e playing tight coverage and daring him to go long, completely ignoring that we now know Chad was playing with a torn rotator cuff during that entire slump.

Not great but he's one of the smarter Qb's in the NFL today. I think he's very similar to Brady, just that Brady has proven repeatedly he find ways to win, Pennington hasn't yet proven that.

 

[ajcardfan]

How many think Roethlisberger is going to have a very tough second year?

 

[Russ Smith]

How many think Roethlisberger is going to have a very tough second year?

Hard to say, I keep reading that Pittsburgh is really going to open up their offense this year because they feel that at the end Ben was pressing because he wanted to be turned loose and wasn't. There's concern that he was so in synch with Plaxico that he'll struggle without him, but I keep reading the plan is open things up.

If that's true, he'll throw a lot more picks, but probably put up a lot more yardage and TD's too.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

Sorry Blk&Gold

Didn't see it.

Can some moderator merge this thread with his?
Thanks!

 

[RugbyMuffin]

sorry Rugby you're off from the start. Peyton and, well, anyone above Brady? That's a joke. Not only does guy put very good numbersw TD wise, but he is the consumate winner - something you can't say about Donovan or Peyton. That's like saying Marino was better than Montana - no way.

Well, first things first.

This post could have 50 replies with 50 different lists. AND we do not see eye to eye on what makes a good QB. I think Marino was the best QB ever. Peyton Manning is disgustingly talented. If he was on the Patriots they would go 16-0 every year.

OK I thought most people would have Brady way up here since he does win,win, and win some more.

I put Donovan McNabb. He is a beast of a man with a rocket of an arm. He also can run with the ball. The accuracy is the key, and like Culpepper will have better and better accuracy. He is focus this year, so we will see.

AS for Farve......well you might be right about him getting old but he still is able to win games all by himself.

Peace

 

[Cheesebeef]

Well, first things first.

This post could have 50 replies with 50 different lists. AND we do not see eye to eye on what makes a good QB. I think Marino was the best QB ever. Peyton Manning is disgustingly talented. If he was on the Patriots they would go 16-0 every year.

OK I thought most people would have Brady way up here since he does win,win, and win some more.

I put Donovan McNabb. He is a beast of a man with a rocket of an arm. He also can run with the ball. The accuracy is the key, and like Culpepper will have better and better accuracy. He is focus this year, so we will see.

AS for Farve......well you might be right about him getting old but he still is able to win games all by himself.

Peace

Peyton Manning has put up a whopping total of 3 and 14 points against the Patriots in the last two years - with two of the best offenses in the history of the game - meanwhile Donovan McNabb found a way to play mediocre and put up 21, Delhomme - a journeymen - decent QB at best found a way to put up 31 against that same Pats D. Peyton Manning has NEVER played well in the biggest games. To say that if you put him on the Pats they'd be 16-0 is about as stupid as saying Marino is the best ever.

You say Brady wins, wins, wins and wins some more as if he doesn't produce, produce, produce as well. Three staright seasons of 3,600 yards, 28, 23, and 28 TDs - all while NEVER having the talent that Manning has to work with.

The guy is the best QB in the game - period.

 

[BigRedFan]

Brady has a more consistent defense on his side. I give Manning a razor thin edge despite his losses to the Patriots. He has total command of the field, and I would rather have him in a come from behind situation. It seems like the Pats are never in situations like that because of their defense. But I can see where youre coming from with your point of view, its debatable.

Peyton Manning has put up a whopping total of 3 and 14 points against the Patriots in the last two years - with two of the best offenses in the history of the game - meanwhile Donovan McNabb found a way to play mediocre and put up 21, Delhomme - a journeymen - decent QB at best found a way to put up 31 against that same Pats D. Peyton Manning has NEVER played well in the biggest games. To say that if you put him on the Pats they'd be 16-0 is about as stupid as saying Marino is the best ever.

You say Brady wins, wins, wins and wins some more as if he doesn't produce, produce, produce as well. Three staright seasons of 3,600 yards, 28, 23, and 28 TDs - all while NEVER having the talent that Manning has to work with.

The guy is the best QB in the game - period.

 

[BigDavis75]

The question on him is his rotator cuff. The reality is Pennington is perfect in that Jet offense, he doesn't have the big arm but he's so accurate he still moves the sticks.

Last year people kept saying things like teams have figured him out, theyr'e playing tight coverage and daring him to go long, completely ignoring that we now know Chad was playing with a torn rotator cuff during that entire slump.

Not great but he's one of the smarter Qb's in the NFL today. I think he's very similar to Brady, just that Brady has proven repeatedly he find ways to win, Pennington hasn't yet proven that.

He has a rep of good accuracy, but he was last in mid range completion pct. (10-20 yds I believe), he was also near the top in long range though. Misleading eh?

 

[Redsz]

Brady has a more consistent defense on his side. I give Manning a razor thin edge despite his losses to the Patriots. He has total command of the field, and I would rather have him in a come from behind situation. It seems like the Pats are never in situations like that because of their defense. But I can see where youre coming from with your point of view, its debatable.

I have to agree.

It seems that Manning is getting blamed for those losses and yet his team mates aren't exactly holding up their end of the deal.

The Colts WR's had several key drops in those games and the Colts defense was about as effective as a wet piece of paper against the run AND pass.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Brady has a more consistent defense on his side. I give Manning a razor thin edge despite his losses to the Patriots. He has total command of the field, and I would rather have him in a come from behind situation. It seems like the Pats are never in situations like that because of their defense.

uh - 4th quarter comebacks versus Oakland in the snow, leading a game winning drive in the Super Bowl against the Rams, coming from behind in the Super Bowl against the Panthers in the fourth quarter and leading the game winning drive. I'd say Brady is pretty damn good in those situtations as well.

You give me a pressure game, your team is donw 7 - who do you really want to have the ball? The guy who could never get the job done in big games against Florida and Nebraska (having HORRID games at that) in college and producing an average of 8.5 points a game against the Pats and really only being able to beat the hapless Broncos and the defensively challenged Chiefs - or the 2-time Super Bowl MVP, who never makes mistakes and leads 4th quarter playoff come from behind victories?

Peyton is the most overrated player in the game - in his entire career he's won ONE more playoff game than Michael Vick.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I have to agree.

It seems that Manning is getting blamed for those losses and yet his team mates aren't exactly holding up their end of the deal.

The Colts WR's had several key drops in those games and the Colts defense was about as effective as a wet piece of paper against the run AND pass.

giving up 20 and 21 points is that bad of a performance - throwing 4 picks in one game and leading your team to 3 points in the other doesn't speak much of Peyton in the big games.

 

[Savage58]

First off, this thread is VERY entertaining, I'm enjoying reading everyone's views.

How to rate a great QB, that is the question. Winning is one way, but it takes 53 guys to win, not just the QB, even though he touches the ball on every play his team plays offense, and he does have the most impact on the game, he can't do it by himself, /em points at #1 on my list.

I'm going to make my list based on who I'd pick #1 and so forth based on this upcoming season. With ALL other positions being equal. That sounds unbiased and totally weighs the players attributes and abilities among themselves.

My list :

#1 Manning - How there is an arguement here I don't know. He doesn't win the big game you say. The playoff losses are all his fault? Laughable.

#2 Culpepper - He's developed into an awesome QB, his running skills, his arm, his command of the offense, I can't wait to see him light it up with Moss in Oakland.

#3 Favre - Oh yeah I'll take the old man who can take any POS receivers and get in the endzone, he's lost a bit obviously, but definately top 5 all time IMO.

#4 Brady - I call him the Iceman, because that's when he plays his best when everyone else on the field feels the pressure he's like, "whatever, lets go get six." Reads the field very well, and a great leader.

#5 McNabb - If it weren't for his inconsistant accuracy he could be #1, but he frustrates me to the point of throwing the beer across the room on some of those nose dive passes over the middle, and I'm not even an Eagles fan.

#6 Vick - The threat he produces on every play is tremendous, but until he gets a true #1 WR to threaten the secondary, why not play 8 in the box?

#7 McNair - Mr. Duck Tape finds ways to get the ball there, it may be unorthodox, but he can put a team on his back and go 80 in the last 2 minutes with the best of 'em, kind of a mini-Favre. Obviously this rating is based on a healthy enough to play McNair which he usually does, even if he doesn't practice.

#8 Carr - He's taken his licks, setting records for sacks in his first few seasons, learned to get rid of the ball a bit more frequently, and is about to light it up IMO. He has the leadership quality needed at QB, and the arm, his accuracy is decent not great.

#9 Green - Leads a GREAT running team, with a great offensive line. He has done well with mediocre WRs and an all world TE, his pathetic defense gives him opportunities to toss it up there quite frequently. Is it the system of his actual ability, he's better than most, but not elite IMO.

#10 Brees - I think he's here for good, would you rather have Brees or Rivers. I'll take Brees. It took him a while to put it together, but he wasn't working with alot either. Gates improved leaps and bounds last season, not alot to work with at WRs, but has the best RB the league to help him out. Lets hope he can put together another fine season.

Honorable mention - Delhomme, Leftwich, Hasselbeck, Pennington, Brooks.

 

[Cheesebeef]

#1 Manning - How there is an arguement here I don't know. He doesn't win the big game you say. The playoff losses are all his fault? Laughable.

did I say "all his fault"? No - but to put up the pathetic performances two years in a row with one of the most high powered offenses ever speaks volumes of the guy IMO. Not only that - but this guy who has been so dynamite in the regular season (that can't be denied) in 8 playoff games has failed to lead his team to more than 17 points FIVE times, scoring 17, 16, 10, 14 and 3 points really only playing well against hapless Bronco and Chief teams. All of this done with a MUCH better supporting cast than a guy like Brady.

Let me ask you this - is it also "laughable" to say that Montana was better than Marino?

 

[Redsz]

giving up 20 and 21 points is that bad of a performance - throwing 4 picks in one game and leading your team to 3 points in the other doesn't speak much of Peyton in the big games.

That defense is awful, and giving up 20 or so points a game is more than enough to lose in the playoffs.

That offense carried that team all year (obviously). And when you can't move the ball and your defense is giving up over 300 yds a game, that means a huge TOP advantage to the Pats.

When you can't get your hands on the ball and your team mates turn it over (like that pathetic take away on Dominic Rhodes by Tedi Bruschi) what else can Manning do but TRY and make plays?

 

[BigRedFan]

I dont deny Brady has some good comebacks, I weighed it all when I gave Manning a minute edge. But I think Brady benefits somewhat from his teams impeccable coaching and team balance. Do I take anything away from him? No, hes awesome. But I think Manning is somewhat more talented as a QB. I can see him going to another team and being close to the same but Brady less so. Just my opinion.

uh - 4th quarter comebacks versus Oakland in the snow, leading a game winning drive in the Super Bowl against the Rams, coming from behind in the Super Bowl against the Panthers in the fourth quarter and leading the game winning drive. I'd say Brady is pretty damn good in those situtations as well.

You give me a pressure game, your team is donw 7 - who do you really want to have the ball? The guy who could never get the job done in big games against Florida and Nebraska (having HORRID games at that) in college and producing an average of 8.5 points a game against the Pats and really only being able to beat the hapless Broncos and the defensively challenged Chiefs - or the 2-time Super Bowl MVP, who never makes mistakes and leads 4th quarter playoff come from behind victories?

Peyton is the most overrated player in the game - in his entire career he's won ONE more playoff game than Michael Vick.

 

[Savage58]

Let me ask you this - is it also "laughable" to say that Montana was better than Marino?

Laughable no, Montana's accuracy has never been matched, ever. He could hit Rice, Taylor, Jones in stride, at will. His ability to call the right audible for the right situation was also excellent. Did he have the absolute strongest arm in the game, nope, but he had enough to get it there and on time. His ability to drive the ball 80 yards, only matched by Elways IMHO.

But lets ask this question, how much better were Montana's 49ers than Marino's Dolphins? The level of talent surrounding Marino wasn't even close compared to what Montana had, that can't be argued with legitamacy. It takes 53 teammates to win.

Wouldn't it be nice to go back in time and see how many superbowls Marino or Elway would've won with that same 49er team. They had an outstanding defense, and the skills positions were pro bowl caliber, they had a disgusting team and Montana was a perfect fit to manage that team.


Marino and Elway had awesome physical skills, but lacked a supporting cast to get it done, neither had a running game, until Elways final few years, which got him the superbowl.

Very entertaining thread, keep it going!

 

[Savage58]

But I think Manning is somewhat more talented as a QB. I can see him going to another team and being close to the same but Brady less so. Just my opinion.

I agree completely with this statement. It all goes back to how you judge a great quarterback, or which QB is better than the next, very difficult.

I'd take either of them for the Cards tomorrow =)

GO KURT, takes us to the promised land!

 

[Cheesebeef]

Laughable no, Montana's accuracy has never been matched, ever. He could hit Rice, Taylor, Jones in stride, at will. His ability to call the right audible for the right situation was also excellent. Did he have the absolute strongest arm in the game, nope, but he had enough to get it there and on time. His ability to drive the ball 80 yards, only matched by Elways IMHO.

But lets ask this question, how much better were Montana's 49ers than Marino's Dolphins? The level of talent surrounding Marino wasn't even close compared to what Montana had, that can't be argued with legitamacy. It takes 53 teammates to win.

Wouldn't it be nice to go back in time and see how many superbowls Marino or Elway would've won with that same 49er team. They had an outstanding defense, and the skills positions were pro bowl caliber, they had a disgusting team and Montana was a perfect fit to manage that team.


Marino and Elway had awesome physical skills, but lacked a supporting cast to get it done, neither had a running game, until Elways final few years, which got him the superbowl.

Very entertaining thread, keep it going!

okay - but using your argument that Montana had much better players - shouldn't that put Brady above Manning THAT MUCH MORE. Manning has one of the greatest WRs of all time, one of the best RBs of this era, Pro Bowl TEs, a 1st rounder in Reggie Wayne versus Brady working with Antwain Smith, Troy Brown and a bunch of other cast offs in his first two Super Bowls? Brady has had much less to work with and STILL has propelled his team to levels that Manning and his band of all stars could only dream of.

The supporting cast argument only bolsters my claim.

 

[Savage58]

okay - but using your argument that Montana had much better players - shouldn't that put Brady above Manning THAT MUCH MORE. Manning has one of the greatest WRs of all time, one of the best RBs of this era, Pro Bowl TEs, a 1st rounder in Reggie Wayne versus Brady working with Antwain Smith, Troy Brown and a bunch of other cast offs in his first two Super Bowls? Brady has had much less to work with and STILL has propelled his team to levels that Manning and his band of all stars could only dream of.

The supporting cast argument only bolsters my claim.

Umm... Defense, I THINK there just might... be a slight advantage to the Patriots, offense doesn't win championships, defense has and always will win championships. So I disagree completely that the supporting cast only bolsters your claim. If Manning had a defense as dominating as the Pats, he wouldn't have to chuck it up 40 times a game, and could bleed the clock, just as Brady does.

Put Brady on the Colts, and Manning on the Pats, who do you think would do better? My money would be on Manning taking the Pats to the big dance, and Brady would do well, but not even close to what he's accomplished thus far, doubt he'd do as well as Manning has done thus far either.

The supporting cast is more than just the offense, Time of possession is a huge factor in determining who wins a game, turnover ratio, time leading the game.

IMO, Brady is a great manager of the game(a very good Trent Dilfer), and is a good fit for his system, his team doesn't need him to be great. Manning's team requires him to be great, and he shows that he is just that, he manages the game, while being pressed constantly to score on every possession because the Colts defense is beyond pathetic. You'd think Dungy could put together some kind of run defense when it counts, only to fail thusfar.

Also I believe Manning has made Wayne, Pollard and Clark what they are, not the other way around. Harrison is a great route runner, and could probably do well elsewhere, but nowhere near what he's done with Manning chucking it to him IMHO.

 

[Skkorpion]

Cheese and I agree here. Manning is the most overrated of all today's qbs but his problems go beyond that. His salary cap share is so large, the Colts will never be able to pay for a good defense.

If I was head of the player's union, I'd bargain for a "maximum" salary for any player to keep the Mannings of the league from taking money that should go to more players and make for better talent-balanced teams.

 

[Cheesebeef]

IMO, Brady is a great manager of the game(a very good Trent Dilfer), and is a good fit for his system, his team doesn't need him to be great. Manning's team requires him to be great, and he shows that he is just that, he manages the game, while being pressed constantly to score on every possession because the Colts defense is beyond pathetic. You'd think Dungy could put together some kind of run defense when it counts, only to fail thusfar.

again - the Pats defense has given up 28 points in the AFC title game last year, 31 in the Super Bowl last year and 21 in the Super Bowl this year. To say that the Colts D has been pathetic in giving up the same or worse is just ridiculous - as is saying that Brady is merely "a very good Trent Dilfer. That statement is mind boggling. Again - 3700 yards per season, 26 TDs and 11 picks aren't just okay numbers they are great numbers - especially since his play in the playoffs is right in line with those, as opposed to Peyton's crappy-ass play when he's not playing the Broncos.

You talk about you'd think Dungy could put together "some kind of run defense when it counts" - but if you're the greatest QB in the game - don't you think that QB could put together some kind of at least AVERAGE game when it counts as well? Again - if you QB a world class offense, you should be able to overcome a 20 point game let up by the defense once in while in the playoffs. The guy choked against the Dolphins his first year in the league when they went up 14-0 and then got ouscored 23-3 the rest of the game, he choedk the next year AT HOME against the Titans putting up a whopping 16 points to the Titans 19, was part of the overall meltdown against the Jets ina 41-10 laugher the next time they were in the playoffs and then looked absolutely horrendous throwing 4 picks and leading his offense to 14 points one year and 3 points the next.

I'm not saying Manning's not great - he definitely is - but the best - that's a joke. The best during ONE of these seasons would have overcome these obstacles at this point to get this team at least a Conference Title. Marino did, Elway did - Manning hasn't and until he does, to rank him as anything but Tom Brady's understudy is pretty far-fetched in my opinion.

 

[LVCARDFREAK]

What's with the Penington lovefest? The guy isn't that good, he struggles with his mid range passing and is very inconsistnet.

See the passes to Moss against San Diego in the playoffs. See the pass to McCareins against the Pats last year. Both were great deep passes. Pennington is so accurate he doesnt need to throw the ball 60 yards...he just throws it 45, between two defenders and hits his wr's in stride.

Definatly top 10, with a little more 'wide open' offense this year (see Heimerdinger) he will put up some great numbers!

 

[Russ Smith]

See the passes to Moss against San Diego in the playoffs. See the pass to McCareins against the Pats last year. Both were great deep passes. Pennington is so accurate he doesnt need to throw the ball 60 yards...he just throws it 45, between two defenders and hits his wr's in stride.

Definatly top 10, with a little more 'wide open' offense this year (see Heimerdinger) he will put up some great numbers!

If he's healthy and if their WR's do anything, I agree. Heimerdinger has a way of getting the most out of WR's(ex WR coach). Very good offensive mind, he coached under Shanahan but he seems to be more in love with the pass than the run but still pretty balanced.