Topic To Chew On: Why Are You Forced To Like A Player?

[Arizona's Finest]

Marions behavior? Marions shortcomings??



What about the Suns behavior constantly involving Marion in trade scenarios the last few years only to never be able to get a deal done.

Talking about Marions shortcomings as a player? What player in the league doesnt have a weakness?? Marion is FAR more versatile and well rounded than most players in the league!

So what Marion has whined a little bit. He less of a whiner than a few ppl on this board! Besides, Kobe whined and had "trade me" talk and some of you still want Kobe...a little double standard perhaps?

I don't like Marion. period.

I can recognize he helps the team, does alot of great stuff and when we do trade him I hope we get great value for him.

But you are no more a Suns fan than I because I don't like him either as a player or a component in the locker room. And thats not going to change.

I didn't like his petulance before and the fact that he thinks he is as important as Amare or Nash is quite laughable IMO.

Plus he cost us a ring. If you love the suns and Phoenix like I do that has to bother you. If only because he talks out of both sides of his mouth and wants to get traded but not to Team A, B, or C.

F Shawn Marion. I will cheer for him because he helps my team win. But I will be hosting the party when he finally ship him off (assuming we get REAL value back)

He is everything I hate about sports and he just happens to be on my team. So i'll make peace with him on the quest to win a championship

But personally I wouldn't spit on him if he was on fire.

 

[SactownSunsFan]

I didn't like his petulance before and the fact that he thinks he is as important as Amare or Nash is quite laughable IMO.

Like it or not, Shawn Marion's game is quite invaluable to our system. If you don't know that, you don't know Suns basketball.

Plus he cost us a ring.

How in the hell did Shawn Marion cost us a ring? He didn't get off the bench. Amare and Diaw did. And if he doesn't get the offensive rebound and the assist to Tim Thomas for the 3 point shot, we get embarassed by the Lakers in a first round exit two years ago.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

Like it or not, Shawn Marion's game is quite invaluable to our system. If you don't know that, you don't know Suns basketball.



How in the hell did Shawn Marion cost us a ring? He didn't get off the bench. Amare and Diaw did. And if he doesn't get the offensive rebound and the assist to Tim Thomas for the 3 point shot, we get embarassed by the Lakers in a first round exit two years ago.

Its obvious you decided to pull direct quotes instead of actually reading what i wrote to make your counter arguments. Let me help you out.

I never once said that Shawn didn't play in an important role on this team. But from every quote ever gathered he seems to think he is on the same level as Nash and STAT. Or even MVP of the league. Thats patently ridiculous. And I am of the opinion that Shawn-while great for our system (or is that great because of the system) could be replaced at 1/3 of the cost. I know thats not a popular line of thinking here but it is what it is. IMO a healthy Kirilenko is a far better fit within this system.

Besides I think for all the issues i have with Shawns game (We are paying MAX money for a player who you would NEVER just clear out and say "Make something happen" but i digress) its crystal clear my issue is with his attitude. I cant stand the fact that even after one of his best friends (my fav Joe) left and can tell him what the depths of hell are like, he STILL wants to go be the man on a 20 win team. Call me old fashioned but that attitude is everything that is wrong with the NBA - and I am not one to take the moral high ground like....ever. But to me he would ship his a$$ to somewhere like Charlotte and see if its everything he wants.

As for the costing us the ring - well I thought it was pretty clear but i will explain anyway - I am of the impression that with KG/Nash/Hill/STAT we win the title. Does anybody disagree with that? I didn't think so. Its been reported about 100 times now that Marion and Marion alone killed that deal even though he was getting everything he supposedly wanted in a place like Boston. THATS how he cost us a ring.

The funny thing is with your analogy about how Marion saved us embarrassment against the Lakers - Number one I can make that statement for about 9 of the players on those playoff teams over the last three years in every win we had. Number two the player who actually MADE the damn shot is no longer on the team. Tim is the one who saved us that ridicule if you think that one play defined the series (which it didnt) and I don't see anyone getting in a tizzy about him leaving.

BTW in reference to my suns knowledge. I am willing go toe to toe with anyone not named "graham" or "cracker" around what it is I know as I have watched more NBA over the last decade than everyone but Marv Albert and the Schwab.

Check. mate.

 

[MigratingOsprey]

i'm a big Malik Rose fan

 

[SactownSunsFan]

I never once said that Shawn didn't play in an important role on this team. But from every quote ever gathered he seems to think he is on the same level as Nash and STAT. Or even MVP of the league. Thats patently ridiculous. And I am of the opinion that Shawn-while great for our system (or is that great because of the system) could be replaced at 1/3 of the cost. I know thats not a popular line of thinking here but it is what it is. IMO a healthy Kirilenko is a far better fit within this system.

Marion = $16 million
Kirilenko = $13 million

That's a third? There are very few players that could come in and replace Marion and fill the role he does on this team equally or better, and none of them make 1/3 or even 1/2 of Marion's salary. And he is just as important to this team as Amare who, by the way, could also be replaced by other players in this league and we wouldn't skip a beat.

Besides I think for all the issues i have with Shawns game (We are paying MAX money for a player who you would NEVER just clear out and say "Make something happen" but i digress) its crystal clear my issue is with his attitude. I cant stand the fact that even after one of his best friends (my fav Joe) left and can tell him what the depths of hell are like, he STILL wants to go be the man on a 20 win team. Call me old fashioned but that attitude is everything that is wrong with the NBA - and I am not one to take the moral high ground like....ever. But to me he would ship his a$$ to somewhere like Charlotte and see if its everything he wants.

Marion: "[Pause] But we'd be in the playoffs, right?" Sounds to me like he'd only want to be in that situation if the team were a playoff team, i.e. a winning team. Where do you get this "he STILL wants to go be the man on a 20 win team" thing from, or is that something you just made up?

As for the costing us the ring - well I thought it was pretty clear but i will explain anyway - I am of the impression that with KG/Nash/Hill/STAT we win the title. Does anybody disagree with that? I didn't think so. Its been reported about 100 times now that Marion and Marion alone killed that deal even though he was getting everything he supposedly wanted in a place like Boston. THATS how he cost us a ring.

2003-04 Lakers. Shaq, Kobe, Malone, Payton. Analysts and columnists pegged them to cakewalk to the ring. Nothing is written in stone. Injuries happen.

The funny thing is with your analogy about how Marion saved us embarrassment against the Lakers - Number one I can make that statement for about 9 of the players on those playoff teams over the last three years in every win we had. Number two the player who actually MADE the damn shot is no longer on the team. Tim is the one who saved us that ridicule if you think that one play defined the series (which it didnt) and I don't see anyone getting in a tizzy about him leaving.

Please. That one play DID define the series. Without it we lose 4-2 and exit the playoffs, becoming the laughing stock of the league ala last year's Dallas Mavericks. Sure, Tim Thomas made the shot, but Marion made the play to give Tim the opportunity to make that shot.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

Marion = $16 million
Kirilenko = $13 million

That's a third? There are very few players that could come in and replace Marion and fill the role he does on this team equally or better, and none of them make 1/3 or even 1/2 of Marion's salary. And he is just as important to this team as Amare who, by the way, could also be replaced by other players in this league and we wouldn't skip a beat.

Guess we will just have to agree to disagree. When i said a player making 1/3 I was thinking more along the lines of a Tyrus Thomas, Desmond Mason, or any other athletic swingman that there are like 3 of every draft. Maybe I am understating how good Marion really is (and he is really good) but my point is his skill set is highly replacable. Unlike say a Steve Nash or STAT. I brought up AK-47 because that was the deal on the table and I was inferring many like players would get similar numbers here in Phoenix. I feel the same way about Richard Jefferson as well.


Marion: "[Pause] But we'd be in the playoffs, right?" Sounds to me like he'd only want to be in that situation if the team were a playoff team, i.e. a winning team. Where do you get this "he STILL wants to go be the man on a 20 win team" thing from, or is that something you just made up?

Man you are reaching.

2003-04 Lakers. Shaq, Kobe, Malone, Payton. Analysts and columnists pegged them to cakewalk to the ring. Nothing is written in stone. Injuries happen.

Lets just say you are in the minority if you dont think the team I am referring too would be overwhelming title favorites.

Please. That one play DID define the series. Without it we lose 4-2 and exit the playoffs, becoming the laughing stock of the leaue ala last year's Dallas Mavericks. Sure, Tim Thomas made the shot, but Marion made the play to give Tim the opportunity to make that shot.

Right - the point is not that I am saying that Marion has never done anything good. But trying to support your Marion argument based on playoff statistics is like me trying to say Shaq is a great player because of his free throw shooting. I think Cheese can go for days about Marion and his propensity to fold in the playoffs.

Listen I get that you got a chub for Marion and understandably so. He has done a lot more good on the court than bad to be sure. he is an excellent player and I think he is #4 in the reasons for the Suns success the last few years (NASH,DA, and STAT being 1 -3) And I would even be okay with the money he made if he was a good soldier and just ****.

But he doesn't. Just wait. When he finally does leave the organization (whether by trade or as a FA) he will bad mouth Mike, Amare and the organization up and down, never once stopping to realize how critical all those things were to his name even being known outside of the 480.

Then we will see how big of a Marion fan you are......

 

[SactownSunsFan]

LMAO! How am I reaching? He answered a question about a theoretical situation. How many times have you pondered a theoretical situation? Have you ever thought about how you'd try to get away with murdering your boss, or something similar to that degree? Just because you ponder a theoretical situation, especially one you've been directly asked about, doesn't mean you'd actually like to be in that situation. He then goes on to say "We'd be in the playoffs, right?" alluding that he wouldn't want to be in that situation if the team weren't playoff bound.

Look, I like Shawn Marion. He's a vital part to the Suns run & gun system. One could argue that pound-for-pound, inch-for-inch, he's the best rebounder in the league, an important quality to have for our team because of our penchant for small ball. That said, I would have loved for the KG trade to go down... but that didn't happen, and now it's not gonna happen. Time to move on and focus on the present. Marion hasn't said a word about being unhappy or wanting to be traded since the start of training camp. I'm content with that, and so should a lot of you. The Marion hate on this board is ridiculous, and the things he says from time to time are blown way out of proportion.

 

[Cheesebeef]

And if he doesn't get the offensive rebound and the assist to Tim Thomas for the 3 point shot, we get embarassed by the Lakers in a first round exit two years ago.

and if he actually shows up in the first three games, we're probably not in dire straits after Game 4. Cuts both ways.

 

[Mainstreet]

I don't like Marion. period...


He is everything I hate about sports and he just happens to be on my team. So i'll make peace with him on the quest to win a championship

But personally I wouldn't spit on him if he was on fire.

This is really harsh. IMO, Marion has always given his best while he is on the court. This four time All-Star may not live up to your expectations but I don't know a coach in the league who wouldn't want him if they could afford him. It appears the Suns may have been shopping Marion for a while without being able to get fair value back. I can understand Marion finally saying something about the situation. The money Marion is paid is what makes him hard to move. Marion was signed to a max contract in a different era before the LT and such. I think he has lived up to his end of the contract. I've never seen Marion take games off like I have seen other high priced players in the league do.

I just think you could find a lot more offensive players to hate... if you must.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I've never seen Marion take games off like I have seen other high priced players in the league do.

you must have missed the 2005 WCF or the 2000 series against the Kings or... you get my point. that being said...

I just think you could find a lot more offensive players to hate... if you must.

i agree. I'd certainly piss on the guy if he was on fire. Not only do you get to save a life, but you get to piss on Shawn Marion!

 

[Mainstreet]

you must have missed the 2005 WCF or the 2000 series against the Kings or... you get my point. that being said...

No, I watched both of those series although 2000 is growing vague.

I have never seen Marion not give a full effort in a game or series. However, I have frequently seen Marion forced to be an outside shooter (which he is not) when match-ups take away his ability to get inside or get fast break baskets. Marion just simply has trouble (understandably) guarding or shooting over superior height. Dirk is a good example. He will just shoot over the top of Marion. When the paint is packed in the playoffs Marion just tends to float outside looking for his shots but that obviously is not his game. Marion is only at his best in a running game.

In short, Marion has some holes in his game (the lack of a consistent outside shot and lack of height to defend a big) but effort is not one of them.

 

[Cheesebeef]

No, I watched both of those series although 2000 is growing vague.

I have never seen Marion not give a full effort in a game or series. However, I have frequently seen Marion forced to be an outside shooter (which he is not) when match-ups take away his ability to get inside or get fast break baskets. Marion just simply has trouble (understandably) guarding or shooting over superior height. Dirk is a good example. He will just shoot over the top of Marion. When the paint is packed in the playoffs Marion just tends to float outside looking for his shots but that obviously is not his game. Marion is only at his best in a running game.

In short, Marion has some holes in his game (the lack of a consistent outside shot and lack of height to defend a big) but effort is not one of them.

I seem to remember the league's two time MVP questioning his effort just last year after Game 1 of the Spurs series. I also seem to recall DA and the other coaches doing the same thing in McCallum's book.

 

[Mainstreet]

I seem to remember the league's two time MVP questioning his effort just last year after Game 1 of the Spurs series. I also seem to recall DA and the other coaches doing the same thing in McCallum's book.

I think Marion's game is much as I described. Now would I have traded Marion for KG, you bet. I just don't think Marion is a slacker. I think fans often fail to see the limitations in Marion's game and blame him for what he cannot do rather than looking at what he can do... and accepting it.

If the MVP reportedly wants to try to get more out of Marion, I'm all for it.

 

[Rbutters91]

I think Marion's game is much as I described. Now would I have traded Marion for KG, you bet. I just don't think Marion is a slacker. I think fans often fail to see the limitations in Marion's game and blame him for what he cannot do rather than looking at what he can do... and accepting it.

His on the court works are great, off the court...