Trade proposal (Knicks)

[elindholm]

New York gets
Joe Johnson ($1,850,160, 2005)
Cezary Trybanski ($1,600,000, 2005)
Cleveland's future pick (or Suns' pick in 2006, if Cleveland remains stuck in the lottery)

Phoenix gets
Othella Harrington ($2,925,000, 2005)

Phoenix gets a credible backup PF, and saves $1 million this year and at least $500,000 next year (depending on the luxury tax). New York -- which doesn't really care about the $1 million -- gets an athletic swingman with "potential" (and who is better than Shandon Anderson anyway), a long-shot center prospect, and a draft pick.

 

[Joe Mama]

I would be willing to come Joe Johnson at this point, but there's no way I would throw in a good first-round draft pick to do it.

Joe Mama

 

[hcsilla]

That's a terrible trade for the Suns, IMO.

No way that the Suns trade JJ for Harrington.Why should they add a future mid 1st rounder?
I do not think that Suns would sacrifice so much talent for few millions.

 

[cly2tw]

The problem with JJ is not he be too bad. It's the mishandling by the Suns that got him into the worst possible shape as of now.

He has talent. But there are a lot of people with great talent that never achieved anything tangible in the NBA. And some needed a lot of time to realize their potential to some satisfactory extent. D. Marshall, Billups, etc. For JJ, the best way to handle him has always been, and still is, to let him earn his playing time as a reserve and not to subject him too early to the pressure of the limelight of a starter.

It was a bad business decision anyway to declare him the starter without any due credit. They'd have to pay him a lot more if he did have a breakthrough year this season. But when he fails again like the case now, his confidence will be shot a great deal more! So, lose-lose decision!

In addition, the Suns don't have a coherent approach to build a team with players with complementary skills. With Marbs as the current franchise, we need good shooters, while the focus has always been on 'pure' athletic ability. Amare, Shawn, JJ all have it. None can shoot consistantly. None is savvy b-ball-wise. But it's just an awful fit to have them all on the court with Steph at the same time! This definitely aggreviated JJ's shortcoming for now.

I'm not sure how long it takes Amare to become good beyond his pure athletism. But it's gonna be Amare-Steph core to build around. Marion, who can't create his own shot nor shoot consistently well, is not a good fit, even without the atrocious max contract. And JJ is at best a sixth man unless he acquires a shooting consistency a la Wells, Reggi Miller, etc. For now, let him earn his minutes off bench.

 

[newfan101]

Man, you hit the nail on the head. I'm 100% with you. Excellent post.

First off, Marion is an extremely gifted athlete who runs the floor great, rebounds better than any small forward, and produces nice offensive #'s. But you're right ... those strengths aren't what the Suns need at small forward with Marbury and Amare as the focus. Last year, as the 2nd option, he got a lot of shots, and his outside shooting was good enough to spread the defense to make the offense effective. This year, however, he hasn't gotten as many opportunites as the Suns have made Amare more of the 2nd option, and his shot has struggled. Perhaps bulking up had something to do with that. However, Marion's a scorer, not a shooter, and shooters don't need to be a primary focus of the offense to consistantly make shots from the outside. Scorers do.

Fortunately, I think Zarko is the right fit at small forward. He has the ingredients Marion doesn't have (good outside shot, ability to create and pass off the dribble, and good size), that should eventually complement Amare and Marbury. Unfortunately, when he gets healthy and plays more, it will take away from Marion's production, which could make him virtually untradeable because of his contract.

I'm not sure how to feel about the reality of the Suns management trading Marion. Obviously, it can't happen this year, as he is a BYC. Plus, big contracts on one position players are extremely difficult to trade. They gave him a huge contract not too long ago, which suggests he's part of their long term plan. However, Jerry and Brian are in love with Zarko and have been adamant about giving him more playing time, which suggests they feel his game is the right fit at small forward. Marion can't be moved to shooting guard, where his shooting and ball handling limitations would make him an absolute bust. So they're basically stuck with him and his max contract at small forward, the same position Zarko, the better fit, plays.

I've liked the suggestions of trading Marion for Ray Allen, who would be a great fit at shooting guard. I've always liked Steve Nash as well, but I'm probably alone on that one. These are just conceptual trades anyway at this point, as both Seattle and Dallas are set at small forward. But with a great shooting 2 guard and Zarko spreading the floor, complimenting Marburys penetration Amare's hopefully developed inside game, and this team could be unstoppable offensively.


They are going to have some tough, tough decisions to make next year.

 

[Errntknght]

cly2tw wrote, "In addition, the Suns don't have a coherent approach to build a team with players with complementary skills. With Marbs as the current franchise, we need good shooters, while the focus has always been on 'pure' athletic ability. Amare, Shawn, JJ all have it. None can shoot consistantly. None is savvy b-ball-wise. But it's just an awful fit to have them all on the court with Steph at the same time! This definitely aggreviated JJ's shortcoming for now."

That has been a shortcoming for decades.

Still, I think a good coach would make something special out of Marion. The guy is a natural baseline player. He doesn't have the variety of slick shots around the basket that Ceballos had but with his quickness and jumping ability he has plenty of tools. That would keep him near the basket for offensive rebounds without subjecting him to physical pounding of posting up. His first year with the team they played him somewhat that way - more just darting in from the corner than constantly working back and forth. It would take some coaching because it isn't instinctive like it was with Ced or he'd be doing it on his own. He'd still be available for deep corner shots - he might well shoot 3's better if he just took them from the corners - and curling up off a down screen for that FT line jumper. He and Amare could play off each other without Shawn clogging his space. Man, I think a coach would have a field day making up little plays for those two.

This would be very good for Amare as he'd be more a part of the overall offense than he is now. Imagine a play where Amare is a decoy or a passer! Or gets the ball coming off a screen.

Another good aspect of Shawn playing that way is that zones are vulnerable along the baseline. Help is slower coming because zone defenders are usually looking away from the hoop and it takes less of seam and less time to get off short range shot than a long one. You may have noticed that random motion doesn't much bother a zone but movement along the baseline is hard for it to handle... a guy moving from corner to corner along the baseline can be the responsibility of each of the five defenders at some point of his journey.

The more I think about this kind of thing, the harder it is to stomach FJ's anemic offense. You know, I think it's finally sinking in to the players that Frank is not doing his job - he's sending them out less prepared than even the weak teams they face. Some they'll beat with fast breaks and one-on-one play, like they did last year, but it's an uphill battle every night. That's why I think we're seeing the guys playing so dispiritedly so much of the time.

So this may not be the best fitting crew of players but it's got enough talent to compete with any team if it's harnessed and well directed.

As far as JJ is concerned, I agree that he's not been handled too well. I really hated FJ moving him into the SL on the bsis of summer league play. He's an extremely flexible player who can fill in at 1-4 so it makes sense to use him off the bench. Maybe try to get him in the mindset of a being a defensive stopper and assume that whatever offense he gives is gravy. That'll take the pressure off him and now and then he'll shock an opponent as to how he can fill it up from all over the court.

 

[Errntknght]

Eric, sorry I ignored the trade... I wouldn't make it but then I don't know Othella's game very well. I'm not in a rush to give up on JJ... get us a decent coach and I think he'll find a good use for him, like I mentioned above, for example. Heck, I don't want to give up Trybanski without getting to see him play some!

 

[slinslin]

That's horrible.

 

[cly2tw]

Errntknght,

excellent analysis. Basketball is about timing and spacing. Athletism is advantage if the coach can make good use of it, even in Suns' case of rather imperfect fit of talents. It's just a lot harder than Steph driving in the paint, kicking it out to a, say, Reggie Miller for an assist and 3 pt. And Amare is still acquiring basketball smarts and Marion is not really farther along that path. But with real coach it can get a lot better.

Actually, I don't like putting Amare as the 2nd option just yet. It took Kemp how long to develop into a 20-10 player in this league? 5 years? I'd prefer that he learn more of the defensive player and rebounder skill a la Ben Wallace, who is just now developing some around-the-basket moves. Let Amare concentrate on getting offensive rebounds and setting picks and slashing to the basket without ball. He can equally learn a lot of bball knowledge w/o disrupting the offense too much. And we can get Marion better involved for more wins and better trade value later. The Suns just seem to be too impatient with both Amare and JJ, so as if they just want to will through their maturity by imposing too much heavy duties on them too soon.

 

[cly2tw]

newfan101,

in case Zarko and Amare both develop well by the end this season, we might get Minnesota interested in a Marion for Sprewell trade. Or we may trade him to the expansion team NO for a future pick and other things. The talents wouldn't match but it'd save precious cap space for the Suns to sign better fitting complementary players to the core of Amare-Steph.

 

[Chaplin]

Originally posted by cly2tw
newfan101,

in case Zarko and Amare both develop well by the end this season, we might get Minnesota interested in a Marion for Sprewell trade. Or we may trade him to the expansion team NO for a future pick and other things. The talents wouldn't match but it'd save precious cap space for the Suns to sign better fitting complementary players to the core of Amare-Steph.

And why would we want Sprewell for Marion? That would be stupid, stupid, stupid. Spree is way too old for this team. Age is the last thing we need in a trade for Marion.

 

[Joe Mama]

Originally posted by cly2tw
newfan101,

in case Zarko and Amare both develop well by the end this season, we might get Minnesota interested in a Marion for Sprewell trade. Or we may trade him to the expansion team NO for a future pick and other things. The talents wouldn't match but it'd save precious cap space for the Suns to sign better fitting complementary players to the core of Amare-Steph.

I'll go on record right now as saying that the Phoenix Suns are not going to trade Shawn Marion unless it is part of a deal to get a bona fide superstar in return. They definitely are not going to trade him for Latrell Sprewell even if it does save cap space. Right now they are committed to the trio of Marbury, Marion, and Amare Stoudemire. Jerry Colangelo also loves Zarko Cabarkapa, so don't count on him going anywhere. I think it would also like to keep Little Jake around as long as possible.

Now they just need to find a decent coach and some role players who can actually shoot the basketball and play any defense this team will win. It may be early, but at this point it looks like the Suns have overpaid for Marbury and Marion by a combined $4-5 million per season. It would probably not be as bad if Tom Gugliotta and Penny Hardaway weren't so drastically overpaid. Anyhow, I digress.

Joe Mama

 

[newfan101]

Originally posted by Chaplin
And why would we want Sprewell for Marion? That would be stupid, stupid, stupid. Spree is way too old for this team. Age is the last thing we need in a trade for Marion.

I understand your point. But the idea being tossed around is that Marion isn't the right fit for this team over the long run. His trade idea would be strictly to get a contract that expires next year in order to fill it with a better complimentary player.

Obviously, not everyone agrees that Marion isn't already the right player at small forward. I'm willing to conceed that arguement ... if his shooting improves beyond where it was last year. But his ineffectiveness early this year, coupled with his huge contract, has some of us worried.

 

[fordronken]

What if we were to lump bad contracts and draft picks to go along with Shawn Marion and trade them, in the offseason, to a team with boatloads of cap space but no free agent draw(Utah?), and get back a cheaper player, like Andre Kirilenko? That would cut back our costs tremendously and give us a legitimate and good role player who will fit into the needs of this team. It would give us flexibility and talent.

 

[elindholm]

I think the chances of Utah trading Kirilenko are extremely close to zero.

 

[kps0001]

I am quite confused as to why people want to trade Marion. Granted we are playing poorly but we were this time last year to I believe, although not to the same extent. ARe the Suns looking to save $$$ ? Trading Marion will pull us out of this slump?

I can't see us trading any of our big 3 like someone else pointed out already. A new coach, I would be down with that.

 

[fordronken]

Originally posted by kps0001
I can't see us trading any of our big 3 like someone else pointed out already. A new coach, I would be down with that.

What's wrong with Frank Johnson?

 

[kps0001]

mediocre players turn into mediocre coaches. mediocre coaches turn their teams into mediocre (at best) teams.

Other than that I guess he might be a nice guy.

 

[elindholm]

mediocre players turn into mediocre coaches.

Of course this is an absurd oversimplification. Phil Jackson and Pat Riley, to give two of the most prominent examples, were mediocre players. And there are plenty of great players who have utterly failed as coaches, Magic Johnson being perhaps the most glaring case.

 

[kps0001]

true in a sense, but one problem with your statement:

Magic and other owners realized he couldn't coach therefore he isn't and probably never will again. Phil and Pat were able to overcome their mediocrity as players to become good even great coaches.

Frank Johnson and the Colangalos don't seem to realize what we are stuck with. Mediocrity.

 

[elindholm]

true in a sense, but one problem with your statement:

Magic and other owners realized he couldn't coach...

So now you are explaining the various ways in which your first statement was an oversimplification. How is that a problem with my statement?

 

[kps0001]

you said I oversimplified. not me. I was just pointing out a flaw in your statement. where you claimed it to be an "absurd oversimplification". Nothing more or less than your statement. Tis all I was pointing out.

my initial response was more a sarcastic response to a sarcastic question. sorry if you missed that. you're the one that wanted to prove their greatness of basketball knowledge.

Great your right I am wrong. End of story. I am not gonna waste my time arguing over something I was not even really serious about.

Frank Johnson for Coach of the Year!!!