Trade?

[thegrahamcrackr]

Bball, you are definitely the draft guru here, that is for sure.

Drafting Garnett was still a big deal since he was the first HS player since Malone was taken. Didn't matter that he dominated the mcdonalds game, he was still just 18.

Also, I was pretty sure most people felt Riley was reaching when he picked Wade.

 

[devilalum]

This is bogus. It was nearly impossible to cut the salary to offer the same money. They would have had to get rid of both Jake Voskuhl and Zarko and take back zero salary. Considering no one had a trade exeception at that point, it wasn't going to happen.

You can argue with trading the pick with the idea that Iggy and Deng would have a similar impact as Q for 1/3 the money but there was maybe a 1-2% of the Suns even having a CHANCE of signing Q if we didn't. That much is indisputable.



Calling the Suns aquisition of Nash and Q a "lucky bounce" is nonsense as well. That is what Free Agency is all about. You NEVER know what you might wind up with when you put yourself in a position to hit the market. The Suns did know that they had a better chance of winning long term without the financial restraints of Penny and Marbury. What pieces they replaced them with was still unknown, but it was always going to be their choice of who they signed.

You claim that the Suns get a lot of luck, which is why they are successful. You refuse to give BC any credit. I have news, by your definition every good team is lucky.

The TWolves and Kevin Mchale were "lucky" when they drafted a HS senior, they couldn't have had the vision he would be a great player.

The Spurs and Greg Popovich were "lucky" to have Robinson get injured for a season, and lot the top lottery pick and best player in the league.

The Lakers and Jerry West were "lucky" to nab Shaq from Orlando and draft a HS senior that turned out to be a great one.

The Heat and Pay Riley were "lucky" to pick Dwayne Wade higher than anyone expected and that Shaq would demand a trade.

The Pacers and Donnie Walsh were "lucky" the Blazers didn't have the forsight to predict Jermaine Oneal's emergence.

The Pistons and Joe Dumars were "lucky" they demanded little known Ben Wallace from Orlando in the Grant Hill deal.

The Magic and John Gabriel were "lucky" that Tmac was sick of being in Carter's shadow and wanted to play at home.




Point is, it is easy to claim success is luck. Of course, the fact the Suns are "lucky" so often indicates there is a little more to it.

I said in my original post that the Suns make good decisions. Dumping Marbury was a good decision. Even if the team hadn't signed Nash and Q the team would still be better off.

You can't deny that had Cuban not had his head up his rear that day that Nash would still be a Mav. Nash has said as much on many occasions. Would the Suns be 31-7 if nash had stayed in Dallas?

All personel decisions in the NBA require some luck. Sometimes it works the other way.(see Grant Hill) All I'm saying is that BC had no definitive plan. He made REALLY GOOD moves that put the team in position to make certain moves.

The rest was LUCK. The moves that led this team to its current state required a little more than the average amount. Like I said before I'd bet money that BC would agree.

 

[Chaplin]

The rest was LUCK. The moves that led this team to its current state required a little more than the average amount. Like I said before I'd bet money that BC would agree.

Luck doesn't exist. A man makes his own luck. Are we lucky that Steve Nash is as good as he is? No, we already knew he was this good. What we didn't know was how quickly the team would mesh and how well they played together.

Basketball is a game of skill, and it is also a game. There is no dice rolling, everything is based on a physical property--the motion of your wrist dictates where your shot is going, not whether you have a rabbits foot in your pocket.

 

[devilalum]

Luck doesn't exist.

Luck

1. The chance happening of fortunate or adverse events; fortune: They met one day out of pure luck.
2. Good fortune or prosperity; success: We wish you luck.
3. One's personal fate or lot: It was just my luck to win a trip I couldn't take.

Call it whatever you want. Things happen that nobody can foresee. When these things are good we are happy, when they are bad we are dissappointed. Placing blame or taking credit for these events is absurd.

I never said that good players are just lucky, only that certain events surrounding the formation of this team were fortuitous.

Now if you want to talk about those orange jerseys the luck conversation could go in a completely different direction. As in if you believe something is unlucky then it will be. The orange jerseys are of course just jerseys but if the Suns believe they will play better in the purple ones then they will.

 

[devilalum]

Luck doesn't exist. A man makes his own luck. Are we lucky that Steve Nash is as good as he is? No, we already knew he was this good. What we didn't know was how quickly the team would mesh and how well they played together.

Basketball is a game of skill, and it is also a game. There is no dice rolling, everything is based on a physical property--the motion of your wrist dictates where your shot is going, not whether you have a rabbits foot in your pocket.

Would you say that this happened because of a lack of skill?

Guard, averaging 21 points, has broken thumb

Associated Press
WASHINGTON -- NBA steals leader Larry Hughes was diagnosed Sunday with a broken right thumb and will miss four to six weeks, the first real crisis to hit a Washington Wizards team off to its best start in decades.

Hughes was hurt when his thumb was hit by Quentin Richardson while driving for a layup in the final minutes of Saturday night's victory over the Phoenix Suns.



[size=-2] [/size]
[size=-1] Larry Hughes[/size]
[size=-2]Shooting Guard
Washington Wizards[/size]

You must be registered for see images attach

[size=-2] Profile
[/size]
[size=-2] [/size]
2004-2005 SEASON STATISTICS [size=-2]GM[/size] [size=-2]PPG[/size] [size=-2]RPG[/size] [size=-2]APG[/size] [size=-2]FG%[/size] [size=-2]FT%[/size] [size=-2]34[/size] [size=-2]21.2[/size] [size=-2]6.1[/size] [size=-2]5.3[/size] [size=-2].435[/size] [size=-2].779[/size] "This is a difficult loss for our team," coach Eddie Jordan said. "We certainly feel for Larry, who has played a big part in our team's success. We have confidence in our team to overcome a setback like this."

Hughes is one of the so-called Big Three, along with Antawn Jamison and Gilbert Arenas, who have led the Wizards (22-13) to seven straight wins in their best start since the 1978-79 season. Hughes in the only NBA player averaging more than 20 points (21.2), five rebounds (6.1), five assists (5.3) and 2.5 steals (2.82) -- all career highs for the seventh-year player from Saint Louis.

"I am very disappointed that this happened, but I have full confidence that my teammates will play well while I'm out," Hughes said. "I look forward to getting back as soon as possible."

The Wizards have entered a difficult part of the schedule, with a two-game road trip to Texas and road games against Indiana and Cleveland in eight days. Without a consistent low-post scoring threat, the team had regularly needed each of the Big Three to contribute every game.

Now it's a Big Two plus Juan Dixon, who is expected to start in Hughes' spot at shooting guard. Dixon has played well in the last two games, scoring 13 points against Milwaukee and 26 against Phoenix. Anthony Peeler and Laron Profit would back up Dixon.

The Wizards have constantly been victims of bad decisions and bad luck since the 1980s. Last season was derailed by long-term injuries to Hughes, Arenas and Jerry Stackhouse, and Hughes' latest setback is eerily reminiscent of an injury to Michael Jordan that sent the promising 2001-02 season into a spiral.

The Wizards were 26-21 after a victory over Western Conference powerhouse Sacramento and appeared a shoo-in for the playoffs, only to learn later that Jordan hurt his knee in the game and would be limited the rest of the season. The team went 11-24 the rest of the season and missed the postseason.

 

[Chaplin]

Now if you want to talk about those orange jerseys the luck conversation could go in a completely different direction. As in if you believe something is unlucky then it will be. The orange jerseys are of course just jerseys but if the Suns believe they will play better in the purple ones then they will.

I'm not sure what dictionary you're using, but that's not luck, that's perception. Luck does not exist, and it cannot be proven. It's an easy way to explain away occurances that you believe might not be normal, but that's it.

I just take offense that you think BC's handling of this team is based on "luck". That's ludicrous, coming from someone who is not in the NBA, let alone knows anything about running a professional sports team.

 

[hcsilla]

The Heat and Pay Riley were "lucky" to pick Dwayne Wade higher than anyone expected and that Shaq would demand a trade.

I don't think that picking of Wade at #5 was a big surprise. They could have picked Ford or Hinrich too but Wade wasn't a shocking decision either.

 

[hcsilla]

Voskuhl wouldn't get much in trade but he's definitely on the block I'd bet.

How about a PHO-NJN small trade?

Voskuhl for Best, 2nd rounder

NJN has Planinic and Vaughn at backup PG while definitely could use some frontcourt help.

While Best is not (and never was) the greatest playmaker of the world he is(was) a dangerous 3P-shooter and he is super-quick. He has play-off experience.

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

The Heat were linked to Lampe the entire draft. Most people thought he would have gone #5.

I thought that NJ was dissapointed in Planicic and were looking to possibly deal him.

 

[hcsilla]

The Heat were linked to Lampe the entire draft. Most people thought he would have gone #5.

Some weeks before the draft yes, but lately Lampe already has started to fall (however he still was a consensus lottery pick) and it would have been a surprise if he would have gone at #5.

I thought that NJ was dissapointed in Planicic and were looking to possibly deal him.

Planinic is too slow and his decision-making is questionable too. He is a borderline NBA player. I agree that he is available but I really doubt that he would get any PT at the Suns.

 

[PhxGametime]

Travis Best could be a solid choice - although I'm not sure I'd Trade Voskuhl, how does that Trade Exemption work anyways?

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

Planinic is too slow and his decision-making is questionable too. He is a borderline NBA player. I agree that he is available but I really doubt that he would get any PT at the Suns.

That was my point. I would bank on NJ counting on him as a backup. Best gets over 20 minutes a game right now, so I would think it would be pretty hard to pull him away, although I wouldn't mind him.

 

[hcsilla]

Travis Best could be a solid choice - although I'm not sure I'd Trade Voskuhl, how does that Trade Exemption work anyways?

It allows for NJN to swallow Voskuhl's salary.

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

Chap, i'm new here but i notice you seem to have a very negative attitude and seem to be a know all.

Pretty unneccessary comment. BTW, Chap definitely is a know all but definitely is overly positive at times

 

[reader]

Travis Best could be a solid choice - although I'm not sure I'd Trade Voskuhl, how does that Trade Exemption work anyways?

Best, played in Dallas last year and was to be Nash's backup. He did not get much playing time and Daniel's ended up playing backup in the playoffs as Best was left off the playoff roster.

He would have some experience backing up Nash, but if he could not cut it in Dallas, how would he do with an even faster team?

 

[Errntknght]

StopTheMadness, "Chap, i'm new here but i notice you seem to have a very negative attitude and seem to be a know all."

I don't agree with Chaplin on the general subject but he's not always negative - several of us probably have him beat on that score.

Perhaps you are new to message boards in general so I'll offer you some advice - don't make judgements about other posters on the board. Right or wrong they create bad feelings and result in hostilities that take a long time to end and longer to heal from. If you think someone is wrong about something then post your counter argument or opinion and let it go at that. You're not alone - all of us do it at times - but it's never good.

 

[Joe Mama]

I'm not sure what dictionary you're using, but that's not luck, that's perception. Luck does not exist, and it cannot be proven. It's an easy way to explain away occurances that you believe might not be normal, but that's it.

I just take offense that you think BC's handling of this team is based on "luck". That's ludicrous, coming from someone who is not in the NBA, let alone knows anything about running a professional sports team.

I think most of us probably fall somewhere in between in this argument. I think Bryan Colangelo definitely deserves credit for this team. However I think it would be crazy to not acknowledge that there is at least a certain degree of luck, good fortune, whatever you want to call it that goes into building any NBA team. Does anybody actually believe that BC knew for certain that he would feel to land Steve Nash or that the Clippers would not match on Quentin Richardson? I don't think so. He and the organization made their moves, and fortunately everything worked out right.

Devilalum, I think if you asked Cuban today whether he made a mistake in not re-signing Steve Nash he would say, "no". Remember that it wasn't this year that Cuban didn't want to pay Steve Nash big money. It's five years from now. By most accounts the Phoenix Suns knew that they would be overpaying Steve Nash at the end of this deal, but they also knew that's what they would have to do to get him away from Dallas. It wasn't just dumb luck that Marc Cuban didn't re-sign Steve Nash. the Phoenix Suns forced his hand.

That said, I don't care whether you want to call it luck, chance, or God's will, but there's no denying that a large part of what happens in the NBA and in everyday life is not by design. Some things just happen.

I believe that some people have implied that the Phoenix Suns could have traded Zarko before the 2004 draft, and that together with the absence of Vroman's salary would have given them enough room for the #7 pick. Actually they would still be about $500,000 short. I also don't believe that Golden State would have made that trade at them because they were saving money for free agency. Besides, almost nobody believed that Iguodala would be available.

If you want to second-guess what the Suns did in the draft it's probably simpler than that. I think they would have been much better off taking Ariza instead of Jackson Vroman with that second round draft pick. He isn't putting up huge numbers overall for the New York Knicks, but I think he has a bright future and could have contributed on this Phoenix Suns team. Hindsight is 20/20 though.

Joe Mama

 

[StopTheMadness]

StopTheMadness, "Chap, i'm new here but i notice you seem to have a very negative attitude and seem to be a know all."

I don't agree with Chaplin on the general subject but he's not always negative - several of us probably have him beat on that score.

Perhaps you are new to message boards in general so I'll offer you some advice - don't make judgements about other posters on the board. Right or wrong they create bad feelings and result in hostilities that take a long time to end and longer to heal from. If you think someone is wrong about something then post your counter argument or opinion and let it go at that. You're not alone - all of us do it at times - but it's never good.

Point well taken.

 

[devilalum]

I'm not sure what dictionary you're using, but that's not luck, that's perception. Luck does not exist, and it cannot be proven. It's an easy way to explain away occurances that you believe might not be normal, but that's it.

I just take offense that you think BC's handling of this team is based on "luck". That's ludicrous, coming from someone who is not in the NBA, let alone knows anything about running a professional sports team.

But our amps go to 11!

 

[tobiazz]

Drafting Garnett was still a big deal since he was the first HS player since Malone was taken. Didn't matter that he dominated the mcdonalds game, he was still just 18.

Kemp was out of HS, right? Malone was the previous great player out of HS though.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Kemp was out of HS, right? Malone was the previous great player out of HS though.

kemp was outta JC

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

Kemp was out of HS, right? Malone was the previous great player out of HS though.

JuCo. Garnett was the first HS senior taken in like 20 years.

 

[PhxGametime]

Best, played in Dallas last year and was to be Nash's backup. He did not get much playing time and Daniel's ended up playing backup in the playoffs as Best was left off the playoff roster.

He would have some experience backing up Nash, but if he could not cut it in Dallas, how would he do with an even faster team?

I read he quickly got out of favor with Nelson, for whatever reason. Tony Delk was on that team for a period of time and Marquis Daniels put up some decent stats the 2nd half of season. There was mention of a few fans here wanting to go after Daniels, so Daniels is no scrub.

I'm not sure if it's the pace of the game that Best had problems with, although it is his 9th year in League... I really don't want to look at the Nets game to scout Travis Best It's not like Suns need another All-star player but Best can score and has a ton of experience in League. Suns scouts would know more about how much he can create for others, he's averaged 3+ assists in his career in limited minutes... Nash should be back soon and his contract isn't overwhelming (sp)...