Trades that never happened

[slinslin]

Especially since Garnett proved since that he is excellent at the center position. It is also not like he underperformed in the playoffs, he pretty much played as always. between 2000-2004 his numbers in the playoffs were usually slightly better than in the regular season. In 2004 and 2005 he lead the NBA in PER and that was unreasonable to pretend that he could keep that up in the playoffs.

KG did not need Thibodeau or anyone to teach him defense, he was always one of the top 3 defenders in the NBA.

On the other hand Shawn Marion usually was a complete liability in almost every playoff series.

 

[AzStevenCal]

steve...I can't honestly believe you wrote the second part. KG was ALWAYS a dominant defensive presence, making 1st Defensive Team from 2000-8. Thibs didn't teach him that. He helped bring that to the Celtics. His softness was always on the offensive side of the ball where he couldn't elevate his game come playoff time (and those problems continued in Boston). But as the third offensive option with us he would have fit like a glove and given us a RIDICULOUSLY better option against Dirk, Duncan and Gasol then Marion could even dream of.

And as far as having people to take the pressure off, Nash, Raja and prime Amare were on this team. Each one of them who always raised their game come
Playoff time.

We wouldn't have been better off with KG then Marion? Another guy who could create for others and defended big men at an All-NBA level? Come on.

He was a very good defender but he wasn't the physical force he became in Boston. He relied on his length, quickness and athleticism. His last year in Minnesota he was showing signs of losing a little of his quickness and athleticism. Boston rejuvenated both his career and his defense. And it was Marion's offense that typically disappeared in tough games too so I just don't see it making that big of a difference. Now, the Garnett of two years earlier, that's a different story. That guy was heads and shoulders better than Marion could ever hope to be.

Steve

 

[Cheesebeef]

He was a very good defender but he wasn't the physical force he became in Boston. He relied on his length, quickness and athleticism. His last year in Minnesota he was showing signs of losing a little of his quickness and athleticism. Boston rejuvenated both his career and his defense. And it was Marion's offense that typically disappeared in tough games too so I just don't see it making that big of a difference. Now, the Garnett of two years earlier, that's a different story. That guy was heads and shoulders better than Marion could ever hope to be.

Steve

the light was beaten of Garnett. Going to any title contender would have rejuvenated him. And Garnett's offense would disappear at the very end of games because he wasn't a big shot guy. Marion could be completely discounted by opposing defenses and couldn't create for anyone including himself. And beyond that, Marion's defense couldn't hold a candle to KG so even if he did shrink in the biggest moments, he STILL would have provided the D that Marion couldn't.

I can't believe you're really trying to say he wouldn't have made a difference over Marion.

 

[slinslin]

He was a very good defender but he wasn't the physical force he became in Boston. He relied on his length, quickness and athleticism. His last year in Minnesota he was showing signs of losing a little of his quickness and athleticism. Boston rejuvenated both his career and his defense. And it was Marion's offense that typically disappeared in tough games too so I just don't see it making that big of a difference. Now, the Garnett of two years earlier, that's a different story. That guy was heads and shoulders better than Marion could ever hope to be.

Steve

Garnett was always lightyears ahead of Marion on defense.

And please KG always was physical on defense. That guy got under players skin all the time even in Minnesota. He never backed down from anyone. I remember KG battling against prime Shaq.

 

[TJ]

I heard of a nightmare deal that was rumored to be Marion and Banks for Shaq.

...ohh wait, that actually happened

 

[slinslin]

I heard of a nightmare deal that was rumored to be Marion and Banks for Shaq.

...ohh wait, that actually happened

wasn't a bad trade

 

[JCSunsfan]

wasn't a bad trade

No, it wasnt

 

[devilalum]

I heard of a nightmare deal that was rumored to be Marion and Banks for Shaq.

...ohh wait, that actually happened

Erased the Banks Blunder and many ASFNers got to hang with Shaq in Scottsdale.

 

[AzStevenCal]

the light was beaten of Garnett. Going to any title contender would have rejuvenated him. And Garnett's offense would disappear at the very end of games because he wasn't a big shot guy. Marion could be completely discounted by opposing defenses and couldn't create for anyone including himself. And beyond that, Marion's defense couldn't hold a candle to KG so even if he did shrink in the biggest moments, he STILL would have provided the D that Marion couldn't.

I can't believe you're really trying to say he wouldn't have made a difference over Marion.

Marion couldn't guard big men as well as Garnett but he was much better covering the other positions then Kevin was and Marion was asked to do that often. And this board really likes to make him a whipping boy but he had very solid postseason numbers. He struggled against the Lakers, he's not the only one though. He was never a clutch shooter, regular season or postseason. For me, the reason I don't see a big difference between Marion and Garnett was solely because Kevin was twelve years into his career and was no longer the player he had been just a year or two earlier. Once you get a reputation as a great defender it takes a couple of years usually for the voters to recognize the decline but his decline was obvious, especially on defense.

You're aghast at my support of Marion in comparison to Garnett but Kevin had a far bigger choke label than Shawn did and you seem to be ignoring it. Granted, Marion wasnt ever expected to carry the team like Kevin was but it wasn't Marion that Tracy McGrady was making fun of when he announced to the world that at least he'd finally made it out of the first round. That was aimed solely at Garnett. It was unfair, just like the criticism of Marion but there was a little truth in it too (for both of them).

Steve

 

[Joe Mama]

Steve, this is just too much. Kevin Garnett was exactly what the Phoenix Suns needed to win a title. He could have played pick and roll/pick and pop all day with Steve Nash and more importantly he was exactly what the Phoenix Suns needed defensively and on the boards. I got killed on this message board because I would have given up Amare Stoudemire in a heartbeat when those trade rumors were being thrown around. At that point I was really starting to sour on Amare's atrocious defense.

Kevin Garnett was a fantastic defender before he ever got to Boston. Frankly we didn't even need him to be as good as he was in Boston those first couple seasons if you really think he was better then. Either way he would have been such a vast improvement to our defense and rebounding I have no doubt he would have put us over the top. I remember going back and forth at the time about whether I would give up Shawn Marion and Amare Stoudemire for him.

I can't remember where I read/heard someone say that Kevin Love is the biggest free-agent on the trade block since Charles Barkley got moved to Phoenix. I think that's a little crazy since Dwight Howard just got moved two summers ago and although I'm not a huge Howard fan I would take him any day over Kevin Love (especially if I could convince Howard to run pick and roll a lot more instead of always wanting to post up). But my point is that Kevin Garnett and maybe Pau Gasol were probably the most impactful trades of the last 20 years. God I wish we could have gotten either one of those guys.

All that said, I agree it's ridiculous to say Shawn Marion doesn't belong in the Ring of honor because he didn't want to sign with Boston. But I assume slin was not entirely serious.

The problem for Shawn Marion in the playoffs is that he was so fantastic during the regular season in part because he was always giving 110%. But in the playoffs when everybody else is giving 110% as well he was a much more average player. I remember him particularly struggling against Lamar Odom and Bruce Bowen. It didn't help us, but he did have some huge games in the finals for Dallas. They would not have won that championship without him.

Joe

 

[AzStevenCal]

Steve, this is just too much. Kevin Garnett was exactly what the Phoenix Suns needed to win a title. He could have played pick and roll/pick and pop all day with Steve Nash and more importantly he was exactly what the Phoenix Suns needed defensively and on the boards. I got killed on this message board because I would have given up Amare Stoudemire in a heartbeat when those trade rumors were being thrown around. At that point I was really starting to sour on Amare's atrocious defense.

Kevin Garnett was a fantastic defender before he ever got to Boston. Frankly we didn't even need him to be as good as he was in Boston those first couple seasons if you really think he was better then. Either way he would have been such a vast improvement to our defense and rebounding I have no doubt he would have put us over the top. I remember going back and forth at the time about whether I would give up Shawn Marion and Amare Stoudemire for him.

I can't remember where I read/heard someone say that Kevin Love is the biggest free-agent on the trade block since Charles Barkley got moved to Phoenix. I think that's a little crazy since Dwight Howard just got moved two summers ago and although I'm not a huge Howard fan I would take him any day over Kevin Love (especially if I could convince Howard to run pick and roll a lot more instead of always wanting to post up). But my point is that Kevin Garnett and maybe Pau Gasol were probably the most impactful trades of the last 20 years. God I wish we could have gotten either one of those guys.

All that said, I agree it's ridiculous to say Shawn Marion doesn't belong in the Ring of honor because he didn't want to sign with Boston. But I assume slin was not entirely serious.

The problem for Shawn Marion in the playoffs is that he was so fantastic during the regular season the excelled in part because he was always giving 110%. But in the playoffs when everybody else is giving 110% as well he was a much more average player. I remember him particularly struggling against Lamar Odom and Bruce Bowen. It didn't help us, but he did have some huge games in the finals for Dallas. They would not have won that championship without him.

Joe

Switch Amare and Garnett at the start of our run and I completely agree with you. We would have won a couple of championships. I just think Shawn did a lot more for us than people credited him for and Amare did even less than many people believed. But by the time Garnett was traded to Boston he simply wasn't the same player he had been the first decade of his career. Five years earlier he was one of the top three players in the game IMO and easily one of the best two way players the game has ever seen.

The beginning of his decline though is what prompted his trade. He was still putting up big numbers but he was no longer a defensive presence. Go back and watch our games his last season, I seem to recall Amare and others scoring on him almost at will. When he got to Boston they revived him as a defensive weapon. He never returned fully to form but he learned how to use his position and his body rather than his quickness and his leaping ability.

The other side of this discussion is stacked, it's clear I'm losing the argument but I can't believe I'm the only person here that noticed how much more physical of a defender he became once he went to Boston. And, IMO, if you take that physicality away (which would likely happen playing in Phoenix) I just don't see how the Boston Garnett makes all that much difference to us.

Steve

 

[elindholm]

The beginning of his decline though is what prompted his trade. He was still putting up big numbers but he was no longer a defensive presence. Go back and watch our games his last season, I seem to recall Amare and others scoring on him almost at will.
Steve

The Suns scored on most teams at will that year. Garnett was still voted 2nd team All-Defense in his last two years in Minnesota, so whatever his dramatic slippage was, those who follow the league professionally evidently weren't as attuned to it as you were.

Garnett was traded from the Wolves because they weren't any good, it was clear that he was miserable there, his franchise wasn't in a position to get on-court value out of his super-max salary, and he would be gone sooner or later. True, his MVP-caliber seasons were perhaps behind him, but he was still an unquestioned top-ten player and had led the league in rebounding four years running.

He would have been an immense improvement over Marion. No championship can ever be guaranteed, but to me it's clear that a Nash-Garnett-Stoudemire team would have given the Suns the best chance they ever had -- even better than the Jordan baseball years.

When people say that Marion's contributions to the team were overlooked, they usually mean that they can recall certain hustle plays or key rebounds that somehow negate the rest of his spotty post-season performance -- as though other players don't also make hustle plays or find themselves in the right place at the right time.

 

[SO91]

When people say that Marion's contributions to the team were overlooked, they usually mean that they can recall certain hustle plays or key rebounds that somehow negate the rest of his spotty post-season performance -- as though other players don't also make hustle plays or find themselves in the right place at the right time.

I think it has more to do Marion's flexibility and skill set that allowed those teams to play the way they did. SSoL teams worked so well in the reg season because you could stick him at the 4 but also have him guard the wing positions when needed. Not too many guys during those times that could do that quite like Marion. He could also hit a 3 and spread the floor, ugly shot and all.