Trading for Surtain

[BACH]

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2005/writers/peter_king/03/27/mmqb.owners.meetings/index.html

Saban loves draft picks: He wants more of them. He is in mourning over the fact the Dolphins don't have their second-round selection this year (they dealt it for A.J. Feeley last year), and I see Saban holding out for a second- or a third-round pick for cornerback Patrick Surtain. Right now, the best offer out there for Surtain is Kansas City's fourth-round pick.

You can bet Miami will have at least one more first-day draft pick on April 23.

Found this in an article about Saban. If their best offer is a middle 4th rounder right now, we probably could get Surtain for one of our 3rd rounders or LJ.

Surtain will be a bit more expensive than Henry (assuming that they'll both get a new deal), but I would actually prefer Cadillac/Surtain over Henry/Rolle.

 

[Stronso]

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2005/writers/peter_king/03/27/mmqb.owners.meetings/index.html



Found this in an article about Saban. If their best offer is a middle 4th rounder right now, we probably could get Surtain for one of our 3rd rounders or LJ.

Surtain will be a bit more expensive than Henry (assuming that they'll both get a new deal), but I would actually prefer Cadillac/Surtain over Henry/Rolle.

 

[overseascardsfan]

I agree about trading for Surtain. But as I said in another thread we should offer Clement and Thompson for Surtain and trade Shelton for Henry straight up. Then we can go best player available in the draft.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

Adam Schecter(sp.) on NFL Total access again shows that you have to know nothing to be an "insider". He said the trade may get done now that KC was awarded a comp pick at the end of round 3(99th overall?). He said if KC would trade that pick the the deal will get done.Unless there was some rule change, comp picks are not tradeable.You would think a guy who works for the NFL network would know that.

 

[BigDavis75]

Surtain is one of my favorite players and has always been a great playmaker, I hope we can bring him in. Also, does anyone have his contract numbers?

 

[joeshmo]

Surtain is one of my favorite players and has always been a great playmaker, I hope we can bring him in. Also, does anyone have his contract numbers?

1 year left 6 mill. Wont fit under the cap, which means we would have to pony up for a very large contract extension with a big signing bonus. Which also means it isnt going to happen.

 

[Russ Smith]

1 year left 6 mill. Wont fit under the cap, which means we would have to pony up for a very large contract extension with a big signing bonus. Which also means it isnt going to happen.

Insiders says 6.15 which per your spreadsheet fits, with 300K to spare. Of course if we trade Shelton we save a bit more, as can be done with cuts.

And of course as you said we can give Surtain the 8 million bonus he wants, extend him, and lower his cap hit. So it CAN be done, but not without some pain for Bidwill who doesn't like to give out large bonuses.

That said we were actively pursuing Hartwell who signed with Atlanta and reportedly received an.... 8 million bonus. We have no way of knowing what WE offered him of course, but if we thought we could afford Hartwell, it's pretty clear we could afford Surtain IF we want him. I'm not convinced we do, which puzzles me given I think our need at CB far exceeds our need at MLB.

 

[BigDavis75]

Thank you Joe, how do you get all this contract info? Also, could you tell me if he was on a backloaded contract?

 

[BigDavis75]

Also Joe if we trade or drop the contracts of Shelton, Clement, and Ray Ray then that will clear up some room under the cap for this year to help trades get through or to add to the allotted money for rookie signings.

 

[joeshmo]

Thank you Joe, how do you get all this contract info? Also, could you tell me if he was on a backloaded contract?

http://nflpa.org/Members/main.asp?subPage=Active+Player+Search

Now remember they only give out base salary info to find bonus info you just have to do some google searches.

And no it wasnt really backloaded,

2003 - $5,062,500
2004 - $5,400,000
2005 - $5,850,000

And yes Cuts or trades will help in gettin under the cap with Surtain as well as extending his contract lowering his cap hit. The issue is, do they want to pay what Surtian will command, both Bonus and Base.

And Russ comparing Hartwells offer to what Surtain will offer wont even be close. He will cost a lot more then we were offering to Hartwell or what Hartwell even got. There is no doubt Surtain will command no less then a 12 mill. Bonus and most likely more then that. Baxter got 10.5, Rolle got 11 mill., and Surtain is better then both and will command more, maybe a lot more.

Just dont think there is enough even after the trades and cuts that we can workout a Surtain contract into the budget, remember we still have to:

1. Re-do Boldins contract, of which it will, even if it is half way through the season which we still need to keep some cap for, along with some other mid season extensions to take advantage of this years cap to lower next years cap(Warner, McCown, Obafemi, RAckers, Russel Davis, Gerald Hayes, King, Wells, Bridges, and a few more).

2. Rookie Cap, which may get bigger if we can trade some guys for draft picks.

3. Maybe Henrys 1,250,000 salary.

4. The offer we still have on the table for Hill.

5. And the usual 1 mill in IR emergency money.

6. What ever the heck else I missed.

 

[Russ Smith]

h And Russ comparing Hartwells off...o way he'll get that much he has no leverage.

 

[joeshmo]

If he wants that he'll have to stay a Dolphin one more year and then go FA, but if he wants to be traded and get a new extension NOW, there's no way he'll get that much he has no leverage.

What does being a FA have to do with anything?

He doesnt have to become a FA to get the bonus he deserves. No matter what team he is traded to they WILLl have to extend his contract, becuase no one is going to take on a 6 mill cap hit right now. The only team with enough cap space to do that right now is Minny and they dont need any more CB's.

He can and will get 12+ mill in a signing bonus no matter if he is traded, cut, or becomes a FA next year. CB's are the highest paid players in the league, even surpassing the QB's this year and Surtain is one of the best CB's in the NFL, he will command big bucks and will probably be the highest paid CB in the league when it comes time for it.

 

[Russ Smith]

What does being a FA have to do with anything?

.

It allows him to negotiate with multiple teams and drive up his contract? the guys you're mentioning were all FA's. The only guy recently to be traded and get a huge bonus, CB, was Champ Bailey, and he was a FA who was franchised so they wouldn't lose him.

If Surtain demands 12 million or more, nobody will take him and he'll be a Dolphin, which apparently he doesn't want to be anymore. Like I said, if he wants that much, he needs to play one more year and THEN go FA in which case he will be 28 going on 29 and demanding a huge bonus and taking his chances on getting it.

 

[joeshmo]

If Surtain demands 12 million or more, nobody will take him and he'll be a Dolphin,

Why do you think no team has made a real offer to trade for him, becuase they know he will command big money, the same is true for Alexander and James. They either give him an extension now or let them hit the open market after only having them for a year or give them a crazy franchise amount tender offer.

If he is traded he can easily demand the big bucks or just become a rent a CB for a year for that team and become a FA after that. That gives him all the negotiating power in the world beucase that team doesnt want to lose a player they just traded away a draft pick for. Its just as powerful as being a FA on the open market if not even more powerful. Either way he will get his money.

And what the heck does age have to do with anything. Rolle got his 11 mill. and they are the same exact age and not to mention he isnt the CB that Surtain is.

 

[Russ Smith]

Why do you think no team has made a real offer to trade for him, becuase they know he will command big money, the same is true for Alexander and James. They either give him an extension now or let them hit the open market after only having them for a year or give them a crazy franchise amount tender offer.

.

I think teams are doing the same thing we're doing at RB, it's a deep CB draft, so they're a bit leery of pursuing a guy when they can draft a guy instead. Again here's what Insiders says about Surtain, my guess would be the numbers discussed are from his agent or someone familiar with talks with the Chiefs.

"The Dolphins are looking for a second- or third-round pick for Surtain, who is believed to be seeking a signing bonus of at least $8 million on a long-term extension. He's entering the final year of a contract that pays him $6.15 million in 2005 and has a cap number of $8.383 million.

Seattle was thought to be the leading candidate to trade for Surtain, but the team put those plans on hold when it signed Broncos restricted free agent Kelly Herndon to an offer sheet"

Also note Miami papers have been saying for several days now that Surtain's agent is saying they are still actively seeking the trade and doing everything they can to make it happen. Just like Henry's agent denied his contract demands stalled talks with us, Surtain's agent says his contract demands are not the big issue. Surtain according to a blurb in KFFL is asking for on the order of 7 million per season with a contract that would GUARANTEE him 12-13 million. Again that's guarantee NOT bonus. If the bonus is 8 you can see that puts the first year salary at 4-5 million, unless the deal was structured so 2 years of salary were guaranteed.

I don't disagree with you that he won't be cheap, but there's absolutely nothing reported anywhere that suggests he's asking for the bonus you think he is. KFFL and Miami papers have been reporting for days the holdup with the Chiefs is not the salary, it's the asking price, Miami wants a 2 and KC doesn't want to give it up because they already don't have their 3rd round pick.

 

[joeshmo]

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/sports/sfl-dolphin01apr01,0,5199247.story?coll=sfla-sports-front

Dolphins cornerback Patrick Surtain and the Kansas City Chiefs have agreed in principle to a multiyear contract extension that includes an eight-digit signing bonus provided a trade between the teams can be worked out, sources said.

Thats 10+ Mill.

Surtain had drawn interest from other teams, with Minnesota, Oakland and Seattle among the leading suitors. But no trade was close to happening because of the Dolphins' compensation demands and the fact a contract extension would need to be reached with Surtain

This one we were both right about. Teams didnt like the draft pick compensation or the fact they would have to give a big contract extension.

 

[Russ Smith]

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/sports/sfl-dolphin01apr01,0,5199247.story?coll=sfla-sports-front

insiders says that the Chiefs are offering a 4th rounder and Saban said this

"If someone else wants to work a business deal for [Surtain] to be on their team, fine," Dolphins coach Nick Saban told the newspaper. "But we will not compromise on our price. I'm not going to tell you what that is, but it's not to be compromised."

That price is rumored to be a pick in the first 3 rounds, specifically the Chiefs 2nd rounder which is again why there has been no deal.

Now 8 digits puts the bonus a lot closer to what you said it would be but the rumor on the Dolphins board I checked this morning is 10 million and the guaranteed money is 13-14 million which is basically smack in the middle of the 8 million insiders said and the 12 million which was your low number. If it turns out he gets 12 million you'll have been dead right on the bonus, but at the moment we may never know because KC still won't give up the pick Miami wants and that's the holdup, not the contract.

Seattle and Minnesota were not willing to give up the draft pick Miami wanted. If you read the whole Sun Sentinel article Saban says quite clearly it's great they can work out financial terms but we will NOT trade him if they don't meet our price. We'll keep him all year and we can retain him after that with the franchise tag. In other words Saban is saying he can negotiate all he wants but if they won't meet our asking price, since he's not a FA he's going to be a Dolphin. If his agent can get a 12 million bonus under these conditions I'll be impressed.

 

[Pariah]

I'd much rather trade for Surtain. Give them Shelton and a 4th to do it.

As for the cost, how can the same people that were hot-to-trot for signing Hartwell say we can't afford Surtain? We could work it out, I'm sure.

If we did a deal for a CB like Surtain, I'd love to see us grab Williams or Benson in the first round, A CB in the second and a Guard and DT in the third.

 

[Russ Smith]

I'd much rather trade for Surtain. Give them Shelton and a 4th to do it.

As for the cost, how can the same people that were hot-to-trot for signing Hartwell say we can't afford Surtain? We could work it out, I'm sure.

If we did a deal for a CB like Surtain, I'd love to see us grab Williams or Benson in the first round, A CB in the second and a Guard and DT in the third.

Well Joe's point is valid though, the bonus for Hartwell is quite a bit less than 12 million so if that's the bonus for Surtain, it MAY exceed Bidwill's limit. Hartwell got 8 million and I assume that's about the upper limit of what Bidwill was looking to pay. Not saying he can't come up with more cash, he owns an NFL team take out a loan, but my guess is Bidwill came into FA with a cap limit on bonus spending and Surtain at 10-12 million is probably beyond that cap limit.

I still want him but at this price I agree with Joe he's probably out of our reach. WIth the bonus to whoever we draft, and hopefully a bonus to Quan when we extend him, I suspect 10+ million for Surtain isn't reality.

 

[Pariah]

I still want him but at this price I agree with Joe he's probably out of our reach.

I'll bet whoever ends up with him reaches a more "creative" solution. Something with a guaranteed bonus over the next 4 years or something like that. He'll get close to what he's asking for, I think.

 

[Russ Smith]

I'll bet whoever ends up with him reaches a more "creative" solution. Something with a guaranteed bonus over the next 4 years or something like that. He'll get close to what he's asking for, I think.

Well yeah and that's a good point he may take a 8 million bonus this year and a 4 million roster bonus next year or something like that. As you say there are creative ways to do this.

I'm thrilled with the direction of the franchise but this is one of those cases where another team that had a gaping hole at CB like us would probably find a way to go get a pro bowl caliber CB for a 2nd or even 3rd round pick if one wsa available to them.

Most teams either don't want to give up the pick, or don't have the caproom, we have two 3rd rounders and the caproom, we just likely don't want the bonus.