Trading Rosen for less than top 5-6 pick or 7-15 with additional high picks not worth it.

[cardsunsfan]

Some of the threads go on for so long I thought I'd put up a new one.. hope nobody minds. My comment seems a little different than most on Rosen though..

I just don't think it is worth it to trade Rosen for a 1st unless it's a good haul. I'd take Kyle Murray or Dwayne Haskins at number 1 for a top 5-6 pick (6 depending on who's still available). I'd take a ~7-15 for a 1st and a 2nd this year or a 1st this year and a 1st next year even if that team is supposed to be good next year..nothing less.....Is there any possibility for that? I just don't see much upside on rolling the dice on a different QB that has no guarantee of working out and getting back our pick position from last year or worse. If teams are so desperate for QB talent and there are only two good qb's in the draft that some aren't high on I think some team possibly would take a gamble... with Rosen's stats last year though I know it would be a gamble for somebody's fan base..

The team sucked last year and I think Rosen did what I would expect him to do at where we picked him last year due to bad team. He got all of that experience which I think would help him this year.. I don't want to go another year of a qb learning on the job unless we make back more than we spent for him last year...

 

[Garthshort]

CSD, you think that you'd get a high pick for Rosen? Forget QB's, I have just the bridge for you.

 

[cardsunsfan]

Possibly, the QB is becoming by far the most important part of an NFL team and there are only a few goods ones or even ones with a lot of potential...

Why is the future pick always more important than a previous one in the NFL?

Does that mean that we made a mistake at 10 last year? Because if we used a 10th pick and a whole year of experience on a rookie qb and we can't do better than we definitely did.. I think Rosen showed enough that someone might want to take a "lesser" gamble on him, especially if there are doubts they will get another QB they actually want..

Do you think the odds are Haskins or Murray would have really helped us have that many more wins in the win column last year? I honestly don't think do.. of course we can't know for sure. Maybe Murray's duel threat ability could have given us an additional unique win or two.. but in the long run with potential injuries and teams scheming for that player I wouldn't be that sure it would be the best long run solution.. My guess is that the odds are the best career of the 3 qb's is going to be based on the team around them. If any of them pan out it is obviously worth a top 10 pick for any of them.. If a team is concerned let's say with the number 6 pick that they would not be able to get Murray or Haskins they only wanted one of them and felt they had questions at QB than I could see them doing it.. or 7-15 for a second as well..

How about the NY Giants with Eli deteriorating fast?.. Lets say someone else trades up and snags the first two QB's before it is there chance? Maybe they feel they are more set up for a more traditional pocket passer and don't even want to take a chance on Murray or if they feel both were going to be gone? If I were the Giants I could see myself at least thinking of trading my 6th for Rosen if I felt that we had doubts of what qb would be there.. A football team with no future qb options is usually in trouble.. How about the Dolphins at number (13) for their 1st and 2nd? A lot of them have QB Daniels as their pick.. is that really a better prospect than Rosen? Lets looks at the Jaguars.. Blake Bortles.. if they were to give up on him or even have major doubts, you don't think it might be a good idea if they at least consider trading their 1st and 2nd if they felt the one they preferred would be off the? I see them less likely than some wanting to pull the trigger.. It only takes one though.

I felt Mitch Tribisky & Jared Golf in some ways looked like they had less potential than Josh Rosen with the talent he had around him, the first year, and they ended up ok. Troy Aikman his first two years had a worse first two years than Rosen, Eli Manning had a worse 1st year and Peyton Manning's wasn't a huge amount better.. Nick Foles had a similar year, Jake Plummer had three years worse than Rosen amazingly enough as well... I felt the team gave up last year.. the coaching was terrible..I think Rosen was in a worse position than all of them in their poor years.. The more I think of it, if I were the Giants and Dolphins, maybe even the Jaguars if I gave up on Bortles.. Yes I would think strongly think about trading for Josh Rosen under the guidelines I mentioned...

 

[cardsunsfan]

I guess with the lack of comments most likely very few agree with my assessment. I just feel Rosen has as good a chance as any qb in this draft of becoming a great QB, and all, most likely, are going to need to struggle to take a next step. Rosen I feel has gone through that.. I don't know why a lot of people feel future picks are so much more important than past picks.. There is usually a learning curve with rookies, and with most rookies, they most likely are not the best option for starting their first year unless you see long term upside so giving up on them after their first semi-wasted year will prevent a lot of teams from becoming good..

 

[BACH]

NFL's Daniel Jeremiah said that Rosen's grade last year is below Murray's and above Haskings', which means that Rosen would most likely still be the #2 QB in this draft.

Most mock drafts have Haskins going #6 to the Giants, so I would demand A LOT for Rosen.

 

[az jam]

Rosen did not have a good year with the Cards. We can debate the why's but IMO Cards would not get a first round pick for him.

 

[Solar7]

I'll echo it: we're not getting a first round pick for him.

I like Rosen a lot and will spend the rest of the offseason complaining if we draft Murray, but the fact is, Rosen didn't show much to make anyone convinced about him. We're not going to get more than what we spent on him.

If he had looked good but we were convinced it just wasn't a scheme fit, sure. But that's not the case.

We'll be blessed to get a high third.

 

[DRM08]

NFL's Daniel Jeremiah said that Rosen's grade last year is below Murray's and above Haskings', which means that Rosen would most likely still be the #2 QB in this draft.

Most mock drafts have Haskins going #6 to the Giants, so I would demand A LOT for Rosen.

Jørgen

A year of his rookie contract is gone and it was a terrible year on the field. They can make an extremely high demand for him but they won’t get it. Pretty good reason to stay with Rosen and build around him.

 

[BACH]

A year of his rookie contract is gone and it was a terrible year on the field. They can make an extremely high demand for him but they won’t get it. Pretty good reason to stay with Rosen and build around him.

In a league so desperate for quarterbacks, I still believe Rosen would get a Mid-low first round

 

[DRM08]

In a league so desperate for quarterbacks, I still believe Rosen would get a Mid-low first round

I don't know if anyone is that desperate. Guess we will see by late April. I think a lot of what we have heard in the media so far with Murray is an attempt by Arizona to get someone like the Raiders to move into the #1 spot. Then the Cards would have extra picks to build around Rosen.

 

[PACardsFan]

NFL's Daniel Jeremiah said that Rosen's grade last year is below Murray's and above Haskings', which means that Rosen would most likely still be the #2 QB in this draft.

Most mock drafts have Haskins going #6 to the Giants, so I would demand A LOT for Rosen.

I was just listening to the NFL Radio Channel. The 3 pm EST guys were talking about the Cardinal / Rosen situation. The one guy who said he watched Rosen a ton at UCLA said there are 4 QBS in this class that he would take over Rosen. In his mind, Rosen needs a LOT of pass protection to be successful. He thought Rosen had a great arm, but would never be a good QB in the NFL, let alone a great one. He saw Rosen as a very good #2 in his career. I’m beginning to think that the Cardinals KNOW that.

 

[Shane]

I was just listening to the NFL Radio Channel. The 3 pm EST guys were talking about the Cardinal / Rosen situation. The one guy who said he watched Rosen a ton at UCLA said there are 4 QBS in this class that he would take over Rosen. In his mind, Rosen needs a LOT of pass protection to be successful. He thought Rosen had a great arm, but would never be a good QB in the NFL, let alone a great one. He saw Rosen as a very good #2 in his career. I’m beginning to think that the Cardinals KNOW that.

Whose the one guy?

 

[BigRedRage]

We're not trading Rosen.

 

[JeffGollin]

If Rosen had a lights-out rookie year, and Murray was rated a tad higher, I'd be all for drafting a non-QB and putting most of my cards on Rosen.

But I'm not entirely sold on Rosen - there's a slight hint of being a "country club QB" that's a bit unsettling. That rap might be totally false, but it could also be a legit concern. The only way Josh can put those concerns to rest is to play/lead his way out of it.

It all boils down to whether we're better off with an unproven 2nd year QB with all the potential in the world or a very athletic rookie midget with magical leadership qualities.

The way I see it - it's up to Rosen to prove he's The Man. But he doesn't get a second off-season to do so. (i.e. he doesn't get a second Pro Day). Unfair but AFOFBL (A Fact Of Football Life).) - especially since Murray isn't participatING in all the post season workout stuff. If Rosen can't give the coaches a warm fuzzy feeling, the Cards may very well make Murray their QBOF.

Side Note - KK apparently likes staff members who go outside the box to make things happen (Case in point - the kid who camped outside Kiff's office to ask for a job that didn't exist until KK hired him). This suggests that Rosen could do a lot for himself if he was observed as a weight room early bird or was privately contacting other players about playbook or training issues. Not sure if he can legally do all that stuff....but there should be other things he can do to demonstrate leadership.

 

[cardncubfan]

Whose the one guy?

Tony Pauline. Probably

 

[bojack]

Rosen was terrible last year. One can argue a good part of it was the coaching staff, but the one thing he can control is turn overs. You can argue he was trying to force things but really that doesn't matter. Your first objective is to protect the ball above moving the ball. The only sample other teams have is that he is the worst QB in the league by a lot. You can rationalize some of that away because of the staff, but that still doesn't get him further than below avg in terms of his current value. I don't see any reality where someone gives a #1 for Rosen let alone a low or mid #1.

I'm convinced we need to look elsewhere, but I am quite opposed to using a #1 overall on Murray and also not convinced Haskins is the best use of our #1 right now. So as much as I hate to say it I think Rosen is the guy next year and maybe take a flier on a QB later in draft or UDFA for giggles.

 

[ajcardfan]

Possibly, the QB is becoming by far the most important part of an NFL team and there are only a few goods ones or even ones with a lot of potential...

That is not debatable. That is why this situation is getting enormous amounts of attention.

 

[Mainstreet]

Rosen did not have a good year with the Cards. We can debate the why's but IMO Cards would not get a first round pick for him.

Forgetting about the draft for a moment, what does this say about Rosen.

 

[cardsunsfan]

The biggest concern for me are the high throws.. but as mentioned, I had a list of rookie qb's that didn't do well that became pretty good... but the league was harder defensively back then...

I don't know maybe we should do the crazy option and draft a qb with Rosen and have the two battle it out.. I just look at the patriots and other teams that didn't have that much talent around the qb but still made it far.. Except for Denver recently I haven't seen one defensive player make that huge of an impact in the biggest games such as a Bosa.

 

[Jetstream Green]

If Rosen had a lights-out rookie year, and Murray was rated a tad higher, I'd be all for drafting a non-QB and putting most of my cards on Rosen.

But I'm not entirely sold on Rosen - there's a slight hint of being a "country club QB" that's a bit unsettling. That rap might be totally false, but it could also be a legit concern. The only way Josh can put those concerns to rest is to play/lead his way out of it.

It all boils down to whether we're better off with an unproven 2nd year QB with all the potential in the world or a very athletic rookie midget with magical leadership qualities.

The way I see it - it's up to Rosen to prove he's The Man. But he doesn't get a second off-season to do so. (i.e. he doesn't get a second Pro Day). Unfair but AFOFBL (A Fact Of Football Life).) - especially since Murray isn't participatING in all the post season workout stuff. If Rosen can't give the coaches a warm fuzzy feeling, the Cards may very well make Murray their QBOF.

Side Note - KK apparently likes staff members who go outside the box to make things happen (Case in point - the kid who camped outside Kiff's office to ask for a job that didn't exist until KK hired him). This suggests that Rosen could do a lot for himself if he was observed as a weight room early bird or was privately contacting other players about playbook or training issues. Not sure if he can legally do all that stuff....but there should be other things he can do to demonstrate leadership.

But numerous times people in the Cardinal organization have said he was watching film and working out, being the last guy in and out of the facility type of guy. Let's stop going off the pre-draft analysis of Josh and the facts we have since a Cardinal. He is not a punk, he's tough, he was seen constantly going up to guys during a game taking a role as a leader, and through all the crap worked his ass off and did everything he could in a dysfunctional situation... in a team sport where there is not much a rookie can fix

 

[LoyaltyisaCurse]

If you can’t get a first. You keep him on the roster and let them battle it out if you must have Murray.

 

[GatorAZ]

I was just listening to the NFL Radio Channel. The 3 pm EST guys were talking about the Cardinal / Rosen situation. The one guy who said he watched Rosen a ton at UCLA said there are 4 QBS in this class that he would take over Rosen. In his mind, Rosen needs a LOT of pass protection to be successful. He thought Rosen had a great arm, but would never be a good QB in the NFL, let alone a great one. He saw Rosen as a very good #2 in his career. I’m beginning to think that the Cardinals KNOW that.

Only Murray and Haskins have an argument. Both were one year guys but flashed a lot brighter. Remember 5 teams that needed a franchise QB last year passed on Rosen. Doesn’t mean they were right to do so but let’s not pretend Josh was some kind of elite prospect.

 

[PACardsFan]

Whose the one guy?

It was either Pat Kirwan or whoever is on with him at the 3 pm time slot. Maybe Rich Gannon?

 

[NYCARDS]

Murray is no guarantee of being a great nfl QB. More times than not those smaller guys don’t make it the nfl. If you can’t a solid first round pick for Rosen then yiu draft Bosa as per the original plan

 

[cardsunsfan]

Now that I've read and listened more I'd say we can't do better than 15 for Rosen... In the scenario I'd go with what I mentioned in my other thread.

1. Trade first for Raiders #4 and their 24 or 27 (hopefully get a second or third as well but probably doubtful) Take Williams or Allen
2. Take Bosa.
3.Trade Rosen to Washington for 15 and take Murray (only if our coach really loves him.. I'll trust him, if not they shouldn't of hired him)
4. Keep Murray and Rosen and let them fight it out in camp, have a backup if one gets injured and sucks.. probably best case scenario.. one gets injured temporarily but both play lights out when they are in and we can trade one for a lot better than a 15) I would not trade Rosen for anything less than lets say an 18.


I guess number 2 option will always be there so the Rosen trade idea doesn't look that great to me anymore..