Tribune: Okur and Nash to Phoenix?

[elindholm]

My focus on centers is always rebounds.

But why, when many good rebounders are not centers? Is Garnett or Brand automatically a better "center" than, say, Divac, just because they get more rebounds? How about Marion? He gets a lot of rebounds too.

McDyess is not a center, no matter how many rebounds he gets in a twin-PF lineup. He could lead the league in rebounds -- and blocks, too, for all I care -- and still not be a center.

 

[JCSunsfan]

My focus on centers is always rebounds.

But why, when many good rebounders are not centers? Is Garnett or Brand automatically a better "center" than, say, Divac, just because they get more rebounds? How about Marion? He gets a lot of rebounds too.

McDyess is not a center, no matter how many rebounds he gets in a twin-PF lineup. He could lead the league in rebounds -- and blocks, too, for all I care -- and still not be a center.

So what height is the magic number for a center? Is it between 6-9 and 6-10? Or does a "real center" now have to be at 7 feet or above? Is it a combination of height and weight?

At the center position we need: Shot blocking, someone who can hold his position on the block, defensive rebounding, the ability to catch the ball and dunk, a respectable 15 footer.

I find it amazing how a certain height seems to be necessary. If we find a guy who can fill those roles respectively, I'd play him at center--even if he is 6-8. Jahidi is 6-9 but no one disputes that he is a true center. If he could catch the ball and develop some consistency, he would be a starter that we all would be happy with.

Oliver Miller was a center in every respect, but was only 6-8 (the wingspan made a huge difference) and if it weren't for the weight issue and that he's a knucklehead, he'd probably be starting for us today.

I think Okafor would be an ideal frontcourt partner for Amare. Their strengths would complement one another wonderfully. Since Amare is an inch taller, I guess you could call him your center. But I would bet that Okie would get the defensive assignment on premier opposing centers. There is only one center in the league that would be a big mismatch and that would be Shaq. But Okafor still might defend him as well as anyone.

Dice has shown that he's not bad at all in the center spot.

 

[elindholm]

I agree that height isn't the magic number. I don't think there is a magic number, and all I can say is, I know a center when I see one, and McDyess ain't a center. I admit that that's pretty weak, but it's the best I can do.

I guess one general guideline I use is height, but if the player lacks height, I ask whether there's something especially "center-like" that makes up for it. Those compensating factors could be a superior inside game (Mourning), great athleticism (Camby), brawn (White), the ability to defend the game's biggest players somewhat credibly (Malik Rose), or the inability to play anywhere else (O. Miller).

McDyess, back when he was healthy, was the prototypical "modern" power forward -- some ability to function inside, a preference for 15-foot jump shots, and unexceptional size or strength. I know that some people remember McDyess to be one of the league's great athletes, and I'm not saying that's wrong, but it's not my memory. I remember him more as sort of halfway in between today's Webber and Stoudemire.

To me, there's absolutely nothing about McDyess that makes him any more of a center than any other PF in the entire league. If you want to call him a center, then the distinction between power forward and center ceases to exist.

 

[Chaplin]

Why are you so dependent on labels? To me, especially in today's NBA, most labels--especially Center, Small Forward and Shooting Guard, are virtually useless because they no longer have a "prototype". Given a few more years, most 7-footers will be "small forwards" unless they come up with a better term.

 

[elindholm]

Actually, I'm with you in being opposed to labels. All I'm really saying is that a lineup with McDyess as the second "big" along Stoudemire is a dead end. And one with Okur isn't much more appealing.

 

[George O'Brien]

Actually, I'm with you in being opposed to labels. All I'm really saying is that a lineup with McDyess as the second "big" along Stoudemire is a dead end. And one with Okur isn't much more appealing.

I think Lampe is the Suns future center. He has the size and hopefully by next fall the strength. But he is still a kid and I don't want to give him the keys to the car yet.

Using McDyess as a stop gap until Lampe is ready makes a certain amount of sense. If the Suns can get him for limited money on a short term deal, he makes more sense than paying big bucks for a Camby.

None the less, I agree that McDyess is not the long term solution. I'd like to get a power guy in the Mark Blount, Foyle, Etan Thomas mold that bang on the inside. But if the can't, McDyess is a lot better than Voskuhl.

 

[elindholm]

If the Suns can get him for limited money on a short term deal, he makes more sense than paying big bucks for a Camby.

This is what is known as a "straw man" argument. I was never suggesting paying big bucks for Camby.

While I agree that McDyess for cheap makes more sense than Camby for a lot, I still don't think it makes much sense. All McDyess at center is going to do is give the team an excuse to play more small ball, postpone Lampe's development, avoid addressing Voskuhl's bad habits, and once again be forced to rely on gimmicky trapping/switching defenses.

I'd rather that the Suns take a calculated risk in free agency -- not something insane like Camby, but there are other options out there -- than ask McDyess to be their "stopgap" center. That's not going to do anything for the team's progress.

 

[George O'Brien]

If the Suns can get him for limited money on a short term deal, he makes more sense than paying big bucks for a Camby.

This is what is known as a "straw man" argument. I was never suggesting paying big bucks for Camby.

While I agree that McDyess for cheap makes more sense than Camby for a lot, I still don't think it makes much sense. All McDyess at center is going to do is give the team an excuse to play more small ball, postpone Lampe's development, avoid addressing Voskuhl's bad habits, and once again be forced to rely on gimmicky trapping/switching defenses.

I'd rather that the Suns take a calculated risk in free agency -- not something insane like Camby, but there are other options out there -- than ask McDyess to be their "stopgap" center. That's not going to do anything for the team's progress.

My concern is the one I think you addressed months ago. (Maybe it was someone else, but I'll give you the credit). There aren't any good centers. There are tall stiffs like Ostertag, out of position power forwards like Brian Grant, over the hill guys like Divac, fragile string beans like Zydrunas Ilgauskas, and so on. Real "classic" centers are harder to find than classic point guards.

The kind of guys I like are scarce and impossible to prey away from their teams. I'd love to get Magoloire or Dalembert, but there is no way their teams would trade them. Instead we are left worrying about guys like Okur who is more promise than performance, Etan Thomas who has not been able to beat out Brendan Heyward on the Wizzards, and Foyle who is a career backup. I'd prefer to go after a Foyle than do nothing, but I'm not sure he is really the answer.

My hope is that Lampe evolves into the kind of center the Suns need. But I don't think that happens just because the Suns don't sign Dice.

 

[elindholm]

You're right -- there are no good "real" centers available, with the possible exception of Dampier. But even a backup-level center like Foyle, in my opinion, is a better option than gutting it out with McDyess. I know you don't like Voskuhl, but a center rotation of Foyle, Voskuhl, and whatever Lampe ends up being would be at least average among all teams in the league. Average among playoff teams, no ... so it would be up for the Suns to be superior at other positions.

 

[George O'Brien]

You're right -- there are no good "real" centers available, with the possible exception of Dampier. But even a backup-level center like Foyle, in my opinion, is a better option than gutting it out with McDyess. I know you don't like Voskuhl, but a center rotation of Foyle, Voskuhl, and whatever Lampe ends up being would be at least average among all teams in the league. Average among playoff teams, no ... so it would be up for the Suns to be superior at other positions.

I would like to do both. Foyle is a career backup who has averaged only 18.8 minutes per game for his career and is coming off an injury season. Who know, if we can get both Foyle and Dice cheap, maybe they can total 82 games between them.

If the Suns do not get immediate help through the draft, they could reasonably be playing with a roster of:

C - Lampe, Foyle, Voskuhl
PF - Stoudemire, McDyess

If Amare played 32 minutes a game, that would give Dice 16 minutes. Add another 8 at center and he gets 24 minutes, which would be more than Okur got in Detroit. I would not be shocked if Dice decides that he won't be able to play 36 minutes a game like he did in Denver.

I like the idea of using a lot of inside guys the way Memphis did. The most minutes any of their guys played was by Gasol. Their minutes were widely distributed:

Pau Gasol -31.5
Lorenzen Wright -25.8
Stromile Swift -19.8
Bo Outlaw -19.6
Jake Tsakalidis -13.3

James Posey -29.9
Bonzi Wells -24.9
Shane Battier -24.6

Having a lot of depth makes it possible to play pressure defense all the time and be able to handle injuries without falling apart.

 

[Joe Mama]

That's a great point. Okur is going to be very attractive to teams who need an inside guy who can score. The Suns have that. What the Suns need is an inside guy who can keep the other team from scoring.

Are we talking about the same Okur? His strength is his midrange shooting and ability to drive past slower big men from the perimeter. Offensively he would be a wonderful fit with Amare Stoudemire. On the boards he's as good or better than Jake Voskuhl but not someone like McDyess. Defensively the Phoenix Suns really need a shot blocker in the frontcourt. They need and intimidator in the middle... a beast on the boards as well. They could really use someone who can defend then opposing starting center without needing help on every possession.

It seems obvious to me that the Phoenix Suns need to improve their center position from a defensive standpoint more than an offensive one. However it would be nice if whoever they get can hit a wide-open 15 foot shot with some consistency. Mark Blount, Adonel Foyle, and Marcus Camby all basically fit that criteria. Because of injuries, I wouldn't touch Marcus Camby, and Foyle is really a backup layer. I would rather have Foyle for $2-3 million per season than Mark Blount for $5-6 million though. Foyle is a very good shot blocker.

I think somebody out there will give Antonio McDyess a relatively short contract for at least $4-5 million, and I don't believe it will be the Phoenix Suns. They just won't take that kind of risk with his injury problems. Offensively he is a nice fit with Amare Stoudemire. He's good on the boards also. He is also a good guy to have in the locker room. He just really isn't a center. The Suns need a center who isn't going to need defensive help because he's posted up frequently by bigger players.


Joe Mama

 

[George O'Brien]

Are we talking about the same Okur? His strength is his midrange shooting and ability to drive past slower big men from the perimeter. Offensively he would be a wonderful fit with Amare Stoudemire. On the boards he's as good or better than Jake Voskuhl but not someone like McDyess. Defensively the Phoenix Suns really need a shot blocker in the frontcourt. They need and intimidator in the middle... a beast on the boards as well. They could really use someone who can defend then opposing starting center without needing help on every possession.

It seems obvious to me that the Phoenix Suns need to improve their center position from a defensive standpoint more than an offensive one. However it would be nice if whoever they get can hit a wide-open 15 foot shot with some consistency. Mark Blount, Adonel Foyle, and Marcus Camby all basically fit that criteria. Because of injuries, I wouldn't touch Marcus Camby, and Foyle is really a backup layer. I would rather have Foyle for $2-3 million per season than Mark Blount for $5-6 million though. Foyle is a very good shot blocker.

I think somebody out there will give Antonio McDyess a relatively short contract for at least $4-5 million, and I don't believe it will be the Phoenix Suns. They just won't take that kind of risk with his injury problems. Offensively he is a nice fit with Amare Stoudemire. He's good on the boards also. He is also a good guy to have in the locker room. He just really isn't a center. The Suns need a center who isn't going to need defensive help because he's posted up frequently by bigger players.

Joe Mama

I definitely agree about the Suns needs. My only quibbles have to do with expected prices.

1. I think the Suns can keep Dice for under $2.5 million first year. He had good luck with the Suns medical staff and seemed to enjoy the team. I am doubtful that anyone will offer him a near mid cap deal due to his injury. If I'm wrong, he's gone.

2. I think Foyle will get at least $4 million unless people are worried about his health. He made $4.4 million this past season and I'm sure GS will try hard to keep him - especialy if they are sure to lose Dampier.

3. Blount's name has not been linked to any of the teams with more than an MLE to offer. Most discussion has linked him to the Heat, but they have a weird Cap situation where they are listed by HoopsHype to have $40.6 million in salaries. This means they do not have an MLE and their priority is to sign Alston and their 1st round pick will cost them just under $1 million.

The Mavs have a similar problem in that they need to re-sign Daniels who will go for more than the $1.6 million LLE.

My guess is that the Suns could get Blount for just about the MLE. He will be maybe $1 million to $1.5 million more than Foyle. If Foyle is a lot cheaper or Blount a lot more expensive, then Foyle is the choice. Otherwise I'd push for Blount.

 

[Joe Mama]

I will be very, very surprised if Foyle gets more than Antonio McDyess. He might get a slightly longer deal, but I don't think there's any way he's going to get more per season.

Joe Mama