Truth Hurts...

DVontel

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82, I already what needed to be said. I’m not reading another long-winded diatribe from you. I already slandered Kliff & Kyler & will continue to do so until they turn it around, but others like to discuss other problems of a football team. *Team*.
 

kerouac9

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And.... more on Kyler... There has never been a Super Bowl Champion QB who didn't win as a pocket-passer. Going all the way back to 1995 when Steve Young was considered a great running QB, he won that Super Bowl by tossing 6 TD passes, while throwing for 325 yards.
Since then, guys like Joe Flacco, Kurt Warner, Brad Johnson, Eli Manning, Trent Dilfer, Nick Foles...have all won Super Bowls!
Mahomes won in 2020, but he only ran for 29 yards in that game, while leading the Chiefs to 21 unanswered points in the 4th quarter to seal the victory.
My point is, here we are in year 3 and Kyler has yet to prove he can win a game from the pocket. And I believe that is a fatal flaw...

I seriously hate this as an argument. There's only one team out of 32 who can win the Super Bowl every year, and Tom Brady has won like 10 of the past 20 (or whatever). It's just not a large enough sample size to be useful. Also, Patrick Mahomes has some wheels and Colin Kaepernick played in a Super Bowl.

The Colts game is yet another nationally televised, prime-time game... Needless to say, if Kyler lays yet another stink bomb, the perception of him is gonna plummet...and the voices highlighting his many short (pun intended) comings will be deafening!

I think the national perception of him is that he's fun as heck at times but he hasn't won anything. We can pat each other's backs about his consecutive 8-week MVP campaigns, but I think the national perception is that he's WAY behind Justin Herbert as a quarterback right now. (Herbert already has more 4k passing seasons than Kyler)
 

THESMEL

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Poppycock overanalyzing. We didn’t run the damn ball again, didn’t stop their offense, got a fumble and threw it right back to them! I don’t even think it’s about being ready or all that patooy - Detroit played hard and good.
if we don’t get 3 and out at the beginning then chunk plays we get all pouty and quicksand. We can run the ball and earn play action and rpo, kliff just does not. I’m not sure if it’s arrogance or stupidity - maybe flat ignorance, none at the presser asked him about it? Announcers talk about it, it’s like he is surrounded by yes men, the run game coordinator must not have a voice, thats why I wanted one! look at the runs ripped off when rb finally got carries, I mean get a grip. all beat us by running and playing one dimensional defense against the pass. Doesn’t take a paycheck to see that.
 
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82CardsGrad

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I seriously hate this as an argument. There's only one team out of 32 who can win the Super Bowl every year, and Tom Brady has won like 10 of the past 20 (or whatever). It's just not a large enough sample size to be useful. Also, Patrick Mahomes has some wheels and Colin Kaepernick played in a Super Bowl.



I think the national perception of him is that he's fun as heck at times but he hasn't won anything. We can pat each other's backs about his consecutive 8-week MVP campaigns, but I think the national perception is that he's WAY behind Justin Herbert as a quarterback right now. (Herbert already has more 4k passing seasons than Kyler)

Mahomes only had 29 rushing yards in his Super Bowl Victory and Kaep lost. I do think there is enough sample size to support the notion that championships are won, predominantly from the pocket.
And yea... Herbert is for sure ahead of Kyler as a passer. But don't forget, Herbert has Bosa on his team. :D
 

DVontel

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I seriously hate this as an argument. There's only one team out of 32 who can win the Super Bowl every year, and Tom Brady has won like 10 of the past 20 (or whatever). It's just not a large enough sample size to be useful. Also, Patrick Mahomes has some wheels and Colin Kaepernick played in a Super Bowl.



I think the national perception of him is that he's fun as heck at times but he hasn't won anything. We can pat each other's backs about his consecutive 8-week MVP campaigns, but I think the national perception is that he's WAY behind Justin Herbert as a quarterback right now. (Herbert already has more 4k passing seasons than Kyler)
Herbert is better than Kyler, Josh Allen, Lamar, & every other young QB right now. Could maybe argue he’s tied with Mahomes.
 

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The Colts game is yet another nationally televised, prime-time game... Needless to say, if Kyler lays yet another stink bomb, the perception of him is gonna plummet...and the voices highlighting his many short (pun intended) comings will be deafening!

yeah. he's got two massive put up or shut up games coming up.
 

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Herbert is better than Kyler, Josh Allen, Lamar, & every other young QB right now. Could maybe argue he’s tied with Mahomes.
I know, right? I rely on DVOA quite a bit, but when I'm making my QB power rankings, I only use it as a reference. Here's how I'd rank the QBs right now if I had, like, a Madden draft and could pick them:

1. Mahomes
2. Rodgers
3. Brady
4. Herbert
5. Prescott
6. Allen
7. Jackson
8. Murray
9. Stafford
10. Tannehill

Joe Burrow is 23rd in DVOA. Derek Carr is 10th. I think next year those positions could likely be reversed. There's a lot of good quarterback play, but like Baker Mayfield, Carson Wentz, and Matt Ryan are all QBs who have both lead teams to the playoffs AND I'd really prefer not to start for my team.
 

DVontel

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I know, right? I rely on DVOA quite a bit, but when I'm making my QB power rankings, I only use it as a reference. Here's how I'd rank the QBs right now if I had, like, a Madden draft and could pick them:

1. Mahomes
2. Rodgers
3. Brady
4. Herbert
5. Prescott
6. Allen
7. Jackson
8. Murray
9. Stafford
10. Tannehill

Joe Burrow is 23rd in DVOA. Derek Carr is 10th. I think next year those positions could likely be reversed. There's a lot of good quarterback play, but like Baker Mayfield, Carson Wentz, and Matt Ryan are all QBs who have both lead teams to the playoffs AND I'd really prefer not to start for my team.
Something about Prescott being that high just doesn’t feel right. It feels like he has been way too inconsistent ever since returning from injury & this is while having a better offensive supporting cast than everyone on this list sans TB & maybe LA. I would flip Jackson & Allen & would probably put Prescott behind all of them, but there’s a gap after Herbert.
 

reebokalone2001

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Kylers growth continues and all numbers point to that. Every time he has a bad game it lets the haters spew their trash but doesn’t mean that’s reality. Kliff may not be the guy to take this team to where we want to be, but Kyler is the most talented QB this team has EVER drafted, to give up on him would be stupid! We are not losing because of Kyler has he had some poor games of course every QB does, see Brady getting shut out last night. We are losing because our D has totally fallen apart from the lucky breaks we enjoyed early on, and our Oline is in shambles still. Kylers play almost follows whether Hudson plays or not he doesn’t trust the other guys and with good reason, he sees free rushers far to often. Just look at the game yesterday how much time did Goff have compared to Kyler? Lol playcalling has been just stupid we move all the way to first and goal and then get kute and don’t use Conner or Ertz? Jut stupid coaching is costing us a lot in these games, take the damn points stop with the hero ball on 4th downs, lots of blame to go around on these losses!
Can't argue our defense wet the bed yesterday against the undermanned Lions Offense, and I 100% am with you kk loves to get cute.

I do have different opinions toward Brady's shutout and Murray's performance. First, the Saints' defense is not bad at all, they are currently ranked No. 6 in Total Points A allowed and No. 13 in Total Yards allowed. Second, Brady lost his top 2 WRS (Goodwin and Evans) and #1 RB (Fournette) during the game. Plus Brown being suspended, Bradey has to constantly throw to the double-teamed Gronk later in the game (what I have observed in the game). Third, it was an NFC South rivalry game and we all know what that means. We played one win Detroit lions, whose defense ranked in No. 27 in Total Points Allowed and NO. 29 in Total Yards Allowed. All our skill position players except Hopkins were healthy. Edmond was freshly activated right before that game. I don't feel use Brady got a shout-out last night to explain Murray's bad performance was a fair comparison.

Noone on this board is denying Murray's talent and growth. What we have all been concerned and complained about is his mental toughness and performance under the pressure (which, IMO, has not grown much since his NFL debut). All QBs face free rushers, whether they can deal with that and still make plays is one of the differences between a franchise Qb and an average starting QB. I have watched more games lately thanks to more free time. I paid special attention to some of the good young QBs everyone is talking about (Mahomes, Mac Jones, Burrow, Herbert, Allen, Jackson (heck, he basically just tuck it and run when things go wrong)). Sadly to say, I saw nobody folded and gave up as quickly and as often as Murray when facing free rushers and heavy pressure.

You mentioned that Murray's play rides with Hudson's appearance and he does not seem to trust other online players, which makes total sense. No QB can survive with no Oline help, but not all of them need an all-pro line in front of them to perform. Some can overcome bad Oline plays, some can't, that's where some QBs differentiate from others. It's on the GM to have the best line on the team as they could. Some have done a better job than others, and Keim has no doubt been on the lesser side. However, with QB taking $45M+ per year, it's getting harder and harder to build a great Oline. A franchise QB needs to be able to play with what he is given, not folded when things do not go the direction he wants.

For the free rushers coming in the middle, I would like to provide an immature thought and love to hear what you guys think. I am wondering if Murray's preference of taking extreme deep drop back requires both tackles to also kick back deeper in the pocket than usual, and the guards then need to slide left and right further to fill the gaps between them and the tackles, which leaves bigger gaps between the center and the guards (basically bigger gaps between every lineman) to make it harder for linemen to help each other and allow easier stun and penetration from the rushers. Watching the Chargers' game and Steelers' game made me think of this. Their online pretty much all clogged together in pass protection while ours are all spread out.
 
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Cheesebeef

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I know, right? I rely on DVOA quite a bit, but when I'm making my QB power rankings, I only use it as a reference. Here's how I'd rank the QBs right now if I had, like, a Madden draft and could pick them:

1. Mahomes
2. Rodgers
3. Brady
4. Herbert
5. Prescott
6. Allen
7. Jackson
8. Murray
9. Stafford
10. Tannehill

Joe Burrow is 23rd in DVOA. Derek Carr is 10th. I think next year those positions could likely be reversed. There's a lot of good quarterback play, but like Baker Mayfield, Carson Wentz, and Matt Ryan are all QBs who have both lead teams to the playoffs AND I'd really prefer not to start for my team.

That list looks pretty much spot on.
 

Solar7

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This is a tough situation, and I won't dive too much into it, but this is some of the continuing problem about Kyler, and what I've been concerned about. He has growing up to do, and we're entering the debate Bucs fans were years ago about how our franchise QB should be handled.
 
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82CardsGrad

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I know, right? I rely on DVOA quite a bit, but when I'm making my QB power rankings, I only use it as a reference. Here's how I'd rank the QBs right now if I had, like, a Madden draft and could pick them:

1. Mahomes
2. Rodgers
3. Brady
4. Herbert
5. Prescott
6. Allen
7. Jackson
8. Murray
9. Stafford
10. Tannehill

Joe Burrow is 23rd in DVOA. Derek Carr is 10th. I think next year those positions could likely be reversed. There's a lot of good quarterback play, but like Baker Mayfield, Carson Wentz, and Matt Ryan are all QBs who have both lead teams to the playoffs AND I'd really prefer not to start for my team.
Curious… with regard to this list, how many of these QB’s (toss in Burrow and Carr), take as high of a % of snaps in the shotgun as does Murray?
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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I know, right? I rely on DVOA quite a bit, but when I'm making my QB power rankings, I only use it as a reference. Here's how I'd rank the QBs right now if I had, like, a Madden draft and could pick them:

1. Mahomes
2. Rodgers
3. Brady
4. Herbert
5. Prescott
6. Allen
7. Jackson
8. Murray
9. Stafford
10. Tannehill

Joe Burrow is 23rd in DVOA. Derek Carr is 10th. I think next year those positions could likely be reversed. There's a lot of good quarterback play, but like Baker Mayfield, Carson Wentz, and Matt Ryan are all QBs who have both lead teams to the playoffs AND I'd really prefer not to start for my team.
Dak Prescott that high? You must not be watching many cowboy games lately. He’s flat out awful in the last 8 games or so.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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Can't argue our defense wet the bed yesterday against the undermanned Lions Offense, and I 100% am with you kk loves to get cute.

I do have different opinions toward Brady's shutout and Murray's performance. First, the Saints' defense is not bad at all, they are currently ranked No. 6 in Total Points A allowed and No. 13 in Total Yards allowed. Second, Brady lost his top 2 WRS (Goodwin and Evans) and #1 RB (Fournette) during the game. Plus Brown being suspended, Bradey has to constantly throw to the double-teamed Gronk later in the game (what I have observed in the game). Third, it was an NFC South rivalry game and we all know what that means. We played one win Detroit lions, whose defense ranked in No. 27 in Total Points Allowed and NO. 29 in Total Yards Allowed. All our skill position players except Hopkins were healthy. Edmond was freshly activated right before that game. I don't feel use Brady got a shout-out last night to explain Murray's bad performance was a fair comparison.

Noone on this board is denying Murray's talent and growth. What we have all been concerned and complained about is his mental toughness and performance under the pressure (which, IMO, has not grown much since his NFL debut). All QBs face free rushers, whether they can deal with that and still make plays is one of the differences between a franchise Qb and an average starting QB. I have watched more games lately thanks to more free time. I paid special attention to some of the good young QBs everyone is talking about (Mahomes, Mac Jones, Burrow, Herbert, Allen, Jackson (heck, he basically just tuck it and run when things go wrong)). Sadly to say, I saw nobody folded and gave up as quickly and as often as Murray when facing free rushers and heavy pressure.

You mentioned that Murray's play rides with Hudson's appearance and he does not seem to trust other online players, which makes total sense. No QB can survive with no Oline help, but not all of them need an all-pro line in front of them to perform. Some can overcome bad Oline plays, some can't, that's where some QBs differentiate from others. It's on the GM to have the best line on the team as they could. Some have done a better job than others, and Keim has no doubt been on the lesser side. However, with QB taking $45M+ per year, it's getting harder and harder to build a great Oline. A franchise QB needs to be able to play with what he is given, not folded when things do not go the direction he wants.

For the free rushers coming in the middle, I would like to provide an immature thought and love to hear what you guys think. I am wondering if Murray's preference of taking extreme deep drop back requires both tackles to also kick back deeper in the pocket than usual, and the guards then need to slide left and right further to fill the gaps between them and the tackles, which leaves bigger gaps between the center and the guards (basically bigger gaps between every lineman) to make it harder for linemen to help each other and allow easier stun and penetration from the rushers. Watching the Chargers' game and Steelers' game made me think of this. Their online pretty much all clogged together in pass protection while ours are all spread out.
I’d agree with the last part of this. Our tackles often seem like they’re on islands with water all around whereas when we rush it seems there’s only the outside available as a path to the QB. I haven’t analyzed why, just a high level impression.
 

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Can't argue our defense wet the bed yesterday against the undermanned Lions Offense, and I 100% am with you kk loves to get cute.

I do have different opinions toward Brady's shutout and Murray's performance. First, the Saints' defense is not bad at all, they are currently ranked No. 6 in Total Points A allowed and No. 13 in Total Yards allowed. Second, Brady lost his top 2 WRS (Goodwin and Evans) and #1 RB (Fournette) during the game. Plus Brown being suspended, Bradey has to constantly throw to the double-teamed Gronk later in the game (what I have observed in the game). Third, it was an NFC South rivalry game and we all know what that means. We played one win Detroit lions, whose defense ranked in No. 27 in Total Points Allowed and NO. 29 in Total Yards Allowed. All our skill position players except Hopkins were healthy. Edmond was freshly activated right before that game. I don't feel use Brady got a shout-out last night to explain Murray's bad performance was a fair comparison.

Noone on this board is denying Murray's talent and growth. What we have all been concerned and complained about is his mental toughness and performance under the pressure (which, IMO, has not grown much since his NFL debut). All QBs face free rushers, whether they can deal with that and still make plays is one of the differences between a franchise Qb and an average starting QB. I have watched more games lately thanks to more free time. I paid special attention to some of the good young QBs everyone is talking about (Mahomes, Mac Jones, Burrow, Herbert, Allen, Jackson (heck, he basically just tuck it and run when things go wrong)). Sadly to say, I saw nobody folded and gave up as quickly and as often as Murray when facing free rushers and heavy pressure.

You mentioned that Murray's play rides with Hudson's appearance and he does not seem to trust other online players, which makes total sense. No QB can survive with no Oline help, but not all of them need an all-pro line in front of them to perform. Some can overcome bad Oline plays, some can't, that's where some QBs differentiate from others. It's on the GM to have the best line on the team as they could. Some have done a better job than others, and Keim has no doubt been on the lesser side. However, with QB taking $45M+ per year, it's getting harder and harder to build a great Oline. A franchise QB needs to be able to play with what he is given, not folded when things do not go the direction he wants.

For the free rushers coming in the middle, I would like to provide an immature thought and love to hear what you guys think. I am wondering if Murray's preference of taking extreme deep drop back requires both tackles to also kick back deeper in the pocket than usual, and the guards then need to slide left and right further to fill the gaps between them and the tackles, which leaves bigger gaps between the center and the guards (basically bigger gaps between every lineman) to make it harder for linemen to help each other and allow easier stun and penetration from the rushers. Watching the Chargers' game and Steelers' game made me think of this. Their online pretty much all clogged together in pass protection while ours are all spread out.
Kyler is not and probably will never make that much money per season, if he does it means he has won us a Super Bowl then by all means pay him that! But again he does not make that which is why we should be using this time and money to shore up the Oline to protect what may be our biggest asset moving forward. He is young an maybe needs better coaching and Kliff or Bidwill need to make sure he has some. He needs to takes snaps under center which KK seems to hate but it is much easier to run play action and many things to keep the D honest. We bog down because we become predictable and KK refuses to adjust and run the ball more. We all thought he had learned as when we were undefeated we were almost 50/50 balanced attack, now KK has regressed back to trying to throw all day??? It makes no sense can he really be this stupid? Watch our own tape of great performances and look what we did it’s like he insists on trying to change what was working…WHY?
 

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Dak Prescott that high? You must not be watching many cowboy games lately. He’s flat out awful in the last 8 games or so.
I would take Kyler over Prescott all day long? What the hell has Prescott ever done? Besides being super overpaid he is in no way a top 5 QB I no this league that’s crazy.
 
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82CardsGrad

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Jesus. When you see a pattern that doesn’t even have an exception to the rule you gotta kinda take notice, no?

I’m interested in hearing any argument that effectively counters this overwhelming pattern of sucktitude.
Add in his 3 seasons with the Cards:

2019: Started 3-3-1, Finished 2 & 7
2020: Started 6 & 3, Finished 2 & 5
2021: Started 7 & 0, Finished 3 & 4 (and counting...)

I mean... when is a trend more than just a trend? :oops:
 

reebokalone2001

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Kyler is not and probably will never make that much money per season, if he does it means he has won us a Super Bowl then by all means pay him that! But again he does not make that which is why we should be using this time and money to shore up the Oline to protect what may be our biggest asset moving forward. He is young an maybe needs better coaching and Kliff or Bidwill need to make sure he has some. He needs to takes snaps under center which KK seems to hate but it is much easier to run play action and many things to keep the D honest. We bog down because we become predictable and KK refuses to adjust and run the ball more. We all thought he had learned as when we were undefeated we were almost 50/50 balanced attack, now KK has regressed back to trying to throw all day??? It makes no sense can he really be this stupid? Watch our own tape of great performances and look what we did it’s like he insists on trying to change what was working…WHY?
I recall a similar conversation where someone said KK asked Murray about playing under the center and Murray shot it down because he does not feel comfortable having his back facing the defenders. One thing I agree with you is KK took this "coach bro" approach way too far.
 

nashman

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I recall a similar conversation where someone said KK asked Murray about playing under the center and Murray shot it down because he does not feel comfortable having his back facing the defenders. One thing I agree with you is KK took this "coach bro" approach way too far.
You don’t ask him to play under center you demand it you incorporate it into the offense period! He’s a player you play the position you have to play it NFL style if you can’t tie recuse then we access whether he should be this teams QB moving forward. I think any seasoned NFL coach would have already done this! Kliff either needs to step up and run an NFL team or we need a coach that will, this ain’t college we don’t ask players what they want to do. It’s your job either you take it seriously and learn or you fade out of the NFL like many players have done before!
 

reebokalone2001

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You don’t ask him to play under center you demand it you incorporate it into the offense period! He’s a player you play the position you have to play it NFL style if you can’t tie recuse then we access whether he should be this teams QB moving forward. I think any seasoned NFL coach would have already done this! Kliff either needs to step up and run an NFL team or we need a coach that will, this ain’t college we don’t ask players what they want to do. It’s your job either you take it seriously and learn or you fade out of the NFL like many players have done before!
Nuff said. I am with you on this 100%.
 

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I would take Kyler over Prescott all day long? What the hell has Prescott ever done? Besides being super overpaid he is in no way a top 5 QB I no this league that’s crazy.

Won multiple division titles? More than Kyler can say at this point.

Also won a division title and 13 games as a rookie. Might not be top 5 but he’s more accomplished than Kyler right now and was by his 3rd year as well.
 

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Well... did Reid really win pre-Mahomes? I mean, I did say Kliffy and Kyler are likely good enough to get us to the post-season "every now and then." Sorta like Reid pre-Mahomes...no?

I took flak for this in another thread, Reid was pretty much set to be the next Marty Schottenheimer, But Mahomes saved him from that fate, From most accounts, he had a big say in drafting the kid.. So kudos to him... But if he hadn't drafted Mahomes.... He'd just be another coach who was good enough to win in the regular season, but fell on his ass in the playoffs...

God knows he had the talent more than a couple of years, to win it all.
 

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I took flak for this in another thread, Reid was pretty much set to be the next Marty Schottenheimer, But Mahomes saved him from that fate, From most accounts, he had a big say in drafting the kid.. So kudos to him... But if he hadn't drafted Mahomes.... He'd just be another coach who was good enough to win in the regular season, but fell on his ass in the playoffs...

God knows he had the talent more than a couple of years, to win it all.
Had a bad take in another thread. Decided to repeat it here. Absolutely wild stuff.
 

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