Two-Minute Drill: Coaching Search

binkar

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You can say---yeah, but they signed him---but---how different would things have been if they had made the commitment to Warner quickly and emphatically, rather than to have had Warner and everyone else twisting in the wind. I maintain that it would have made a world of difference because Warner would have felt duly appreciated by the organization---and he wouldn't have had to go through the season with a bad taste in his mouth.

Guess we will have to disagree, because I'd argue things wouldn't have been a bit different. It wouldn't have changed his play, it wouldn't have changed his decision to retire, etc. I just think it was NFL business and part of the process.
 

CardsSunsDbacks

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What is at the core of this argument has nothing to do with impatience and everything to do with timing and perception.

I will always go back to the Kurt Warner debacle because in essence it manifests how poorly the Cardinals treated the most important and pivotal decision they had to make in the last 10 years.

You can say---yeah, but they signed him---but---how different would things have been if they had made the commitment to Warner quickly and emphatically, rather than to have had Warner and everyone else twisting in the wind. I maintain that it would have made a world of difference because Warner would have felt duly appreciated by the organization---and he wouldn't have had to go through the season with a bad taste in his mouth.

With Warner it wasn't so much about the money---it was about the recognition and the commitment.

Remember that to that point, Warner hadn't even gone into one of the last few season as the named starter.

Remember too that Warner and his agent tried to get a new deal done the previous off-season and the Cardinals were not interested in doing so. The Cardinals still believed that Matt Leinart was the man, not Warner...even after Warner had lit up the scoreboard in ways the Cardinals hadn't seen in ages....with one arm, no less.

What we had in Warner was special---not the type of thing you want to flirt with.

We now have the same in Ray Horton---what he has done with the once pathetic and hapless Cardinal defense is special.

The vibe surrounding the defense is now special---and should not be flirted with.

I am not sure if you have considered this, but there's a chance that if the Cardinals want to hire McCoy or some other OC candidate that he would insist on hiring his own people and his own staff.

It actually is smart for a new head coach to think that way---

I accepted a head coaching position once where I was told that the incumbent DC would be retained---and the DC had been one of the finalists for the HC job.

That was a huge mistake on my part---the DC, feeling spurned by the school and the AD for not getting the HC job did all he could to divide the team and to question every decision I made. He even went to all kinds of parents to lobby for their support.

Now---we would assume that Ray Horton is professional enough not to do something like that---but---let's be real---he will be bitterly disappointed if he does not get the job---and he will feel indignant about it, seeing as he has the players' trust and he's been slugging it out with them in the trenches while the newbie HC was coaching somewhere else.

We are talking about human nature here.

Then---we are talking about player allegiances---many of Horton's players will be siding up with him on this...especially if the new HC doesn't command their respect the way Horton does.

The Cardinals could become more divided as a team than ever---

Again it is only human nature---it's called having someone's back.

Lastly---you may not have finished reading my post because I proposed that the Cardinals hire Horton and then engage in a full-scale OC search that they can conduct as a team (Keim. Licht and Horton).

I did not think Horton's choices (if MJ was accurate) were the best he or the Cardinals could do.

But at this point I do think that Ray Horton is the best candidate for the HC position. He brings special to the table---and I believe he would galvanize all the players on the team, offense and defense---which is exactly what we need.

Waiting and losing out on McCoy would, imo, be a mistake---timing wise, because Horton then would appear to be what he appears to be right now: a fall-back option.

That doesn't work for holding onto "special."

Special needs to be treated as such.
I don't agree that this is reason enough to hire Horton as the HC. Basically you are saying they should just do it so not to lose Horton, but I think that is a terrible reason to make this decision. You need to go to the guy that gives the team the best chance of winning/competing. If they feel like one of their other candidates is better for that than Horton than they should go with him. If the new HC is cool with keeping Horton on as DC than they should give him a big raise and maybe even Asst. HC again if the coach is OK with that. I agree that situations like this can go badly, but the way one person handles being passed over for a job isn't necessarily the standard for how everyone is going to react. Also keep in mind this is the NFL where there is a lot of money involved and thus players and coaches who have been around for a while are more likely to be understanding when decisions don't go their way.
 

JeffGollin

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I don't agree that this is reason enough to hire Horton as the HC. Basically you are saying they should just do it so not to lose Horton, but I think that is a terrible reason to make this decision. You need to go to the guy that gives the team the best chance of winning/competing. If they feel like one of their other candidates is better for that than Horton than they should go with him. If the new HC is cool with keeping Horton on as DC than they should give him a big raise and maybe even Asst. HC again if the coach is OK with that. I agree that situations like this can go badly, but the way one person handles being passed over for a job isn't necessarily the standard for how everyone is going to react. Also keep in mind this is the NFL where there is a lot of money involved and thus players and coaches who have been around for a while are more likely to be understanding when decisions don't go their way.
So OK. But I can make a case for making Horton HC in order to keep him, because we have a better chance of winning if he remains on staff than we do with anyone else we could hire as HC and Horton's leaving. (Granted not an iron-clad case - plus it would set a really squirrelly precedent as the wrong thing to do when filling a staff vacancy - but a pretty good case regardless).
 

WildBB

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What is at the core of this argument has nothing to do with impatience and everything to do with timing and perception.

I will always go back to the Kurt Warner debacle because in essence it manifests how poorly the Cardinals treated the most important and pivotal decision they had to make in the last 10 years.

You can say---yeah, but they signed him---but---how different would things have been if they had made the commitment to Warner quickly and emphatically, rather than to have had Warner and everyone else twisting in the wind. I maintain that it would have made a world of difference because Warner would have felt duly appreciated by the organization---and he wouldn't have had to go through the season with a bad taste in his mouth.

With Warner it wasn't so much about the money---it was about the recognition and the commitment.

Remember that to that point, Warner hadn't even gone into one of the last few season as the named starter.

Remember too that Warner and his agent tried to get a new deal done the previous off-season and the Cardinals were not interested in doing so. The Cardinals still believed that Matt Leinart was the man, not Warner...even after Warner had lit up the scoreboard in ways the Cardinals hadn't seen in ages....with one arm, no less.

What we had in Warner was special---not the type of thing you want to flirt with.

We now have the same in Ray Horton---what he has done with the once pathetic and hapless Cardinal defense is special.

The vibe surrounding the defense is now special---and should not be flirted with.

I am not sure if you have considered this, but there's a chance that if the Cardinals want to hire McCoy or some other OC candidate that he would insist on hiring his own people and his own staff.

It actually is smart for a new head coach to think that way---

I accepted a head coaching position once where I was told that the incumbent DC would be retained---and the DC had been one of the finalists for the HC job.

That was a huge mistake on my part---the DC, feeling spurned by the school and the AD for not getting the HC job did all he could to divide the team and to question every decision I made. He even went to all kinds of parents to lobby for their support.

Now---we would assume that Ray Horton is professional enough not to do something like that---but---let's be real---he will be bitterly disappointed if he does not get the job---and he will feel indignant about it, seeing as he has the players' trust and he's been slugging it out with them in the trenches while the newbie HC was coaching somewhere else.

We are talking about human nature here.

Then---we are talking about player allegiances---many of Horton's players will be siding up with him on this...especially if the new HC doesn't command their respect the way Horton does.

The Cardinals could become more divided as a team than ever---

Again it is only human nature---it's called having someone's back.

Lastly---you may not have finished reading my post because I proposed that the Cardinals hire Horton and then engage in a full-scale OC search that they can conduct as a team (Keim. Licht and Horton).

I did not think Horton's choices (if MJ was accurate) were the best he or the Cardinals could do.

But at this point I do think that Ray Horton is the best candidate for the HC position. He brings special to the table---and I believe he would galvanize all the players on the team, offense and defense---which is exactly what we need.

Waiting and losing out on McCoy would, imo, be a mistake---timing wise, because Horton then would appear to be what he appears to be right now: a fall-back option.

That doesn't work for holding onto "special."

Special needs to be treated as such.

Good write up on Horton. Agree that it could bring divisivness at the first signs of struggle on the Offense especially if McCoy, Haley or Gruden is hired and forced to keep Horton on.

Which high quality candidate could come over here and take over the woeful offense however? Why would they? Most would want the HC gig to come here. If the new GM in Jax, indeed lets Rivera go, then that may be another viable option for DC.

The whole process is still fluid. They need to hire the best guy(s) they can get. Not just motivation wise, but proven on BOTH sides of the ball. That means HC AND the co-ordinators. How can you hire Horton w/o knowing your getting quality on the other side? You even made that argument earlier.
 

MrYeahBut

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I haven't seen anyone hired by another team that the have Cards lost out on so far. Reid?? Many here, myself included would have been ok with Reid but I ain't heartbroken the Cards didn't hire him.
 

perivolaki

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So OK. But I can make a case for making Horton HC in order to keep him, because we have a better chance of winning if he remains on staff than we do with anyone else we could hire as HC and Horton's leaving. (Granted not an iron-clad case - plus it would set a really squirrelly precedent as the wrong thing to do when filling a staff vacancy - but a pretty good case regardless).

You don't know that we have a better chance of winning with Horton as HC than with a different HC and Horton leaving.

Thats just speculation.

I like Horton and want him for HC, but to say that if you hire someone else and Horton leaves we can't be successful is just wrong.

If you can get the right man as HC, and he has a good plan, and can put together a good staff, we could be just as successful or maybe more successful.

There are good young coaches all over the NFL and college.

I'd like to keep Horton but there are other guys who could coach this defense.
 

JeffGollin

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You don't know that we have a better chance of winning with Horton as HC than with a different HC and Horton leaving.

Thats just speculation.

I like Horton and want him for HC, but to say that if you hire someone else and Horton leaves we can't be successful is just wrong.
Of course it was speculation. Re-read my post. I never said we should absolutely do it. All I said was that a reasonable case could be made for keeping Horton at all costs; not that I believed we absolutely had a better chance of winning. (Just that we might).
 

PJ1

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What is at the core of this argument has nothing to do with impatience and everything to do with timing and perception.

I will always go back to the Kurt Warner debacle because in essence it manifests how poorly the Cardinals treated the most important and pivotal decision they had to make in the last 10 years.

You can say---yeah, but they signed him---but---how different would things have been if they had made the commitment to Warner quickly and emphatically, rather than to have had Warner and everyone else twisting in the wind. I maintain that it would have made a world of difference because Warner would have felt duly appreciated by the organization---and he wouldn't have had to go through the season with a bad taste in his mouth.

With Warner it wasn't so much about the money---it was about the recognition and the commitment.

Remember that to that point, Warner hadn't even gone into one of the last few season as the named starter.

Remember too that Warner and his agent tried to get a new deal done the previous off-season and the Cardinals were not interested in doing so. The Cardinals still believed that Matt Leinart was the man, not Warner...even after Warner had lit up the scoreboard in ways the Cardinals hadn't seen in ages....with one arm, no less.

What we had in Warner was special---not the type of thing you want to flirt with.

We now have the same in Ray Horton---what he has done with the once pathetic and hapless Cardinal defense is special.

The vibe surrounding the defense is now special---and should not be flirted with.

I am not sure if you have considered this, but there's a chance that if the Cardinals want to hire McCoy or some other OC candidate that he would insist on hiring his own people and his own staff.

It actually is smart for a new head coach to think that way---

I accepted a head coaching position once where I was told that the incumbent DC would be retained---and the DC had been one of the finalists for the HC job.

That was a huge mistake on my part---the DC, feeling spurned by the school and the AD for not getting the HC job did all he could to divide the team and to question every decision I made. He even went to all kinds of parents to lobby for their support.

Now---we would assume that Ray Horton is professional enough not to do something like that---but---let's be real---he will be bitterly disappointed if he does not get the job---and he will feel indignant about it, seeing as he has the players' trust and he's been slugging it out with them in the trenches while the newbie HC was coaching somewhere else.

We are talking about human nature here.

Then---we are talking about player allegiances---many of Horton's players will be siding up with him on this...especially if the new HC doesn't command their respect the way Horton does.

The Cardinals could become more divided as a team than ever---

Again it is only human nature---it's called having someone's back.

Lastly---you may not have finished reading my post because I proposed that the Cardinals hire Horton and then engage in a full-scale OC search that they can conduct as a team (Keim. Licht and Horton).

I did not think Horton's choices (if MJ was accurate) were the best he or the Cardinals could do.

But at this point I do think that Ray Horton is the best candidate for the HC position. He brings special to the table---and I believe he would galvanize all the players on the team, offense and defense---which is exactly what we need.

Waiting and losing out on McCoy would, imo, be a mistake---timing wise, because Horton then would appear to be what he appears to be right now: a fall-back option.

That doesn't work for holding onto "special."

Special needs to be treated as such.

Well Warner sure had one hell of a season for a guy that was upset and had a bad taste in his mouth. The playoff game against the Packers may be the best game I ever saw him play. It was just business for him and the Cardinals and nothing more.
 

JeffGollin

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Whether or not our new HC is McCoy, at. least there are no impediments we know of to putting the show on the road and moving the process forward.
 

Seandonic

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In the last 5 years, there have been 33 head coach hires. Just 7 took place before January 11th, and two of those were interims.

No harm in stalling.
Where did you come up with such a gem of info? Very nice!
 

perivolaki

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Of course it was speculation. Re-read my post. I never said we should absolutely do it. All I said was that a reasonable case could be made for keeping Horton at all costs; not that I believed we absolutely had a better chance of winning. (Just that we might).

point taken
 

THESMEL

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The Birdgang has a birdbrain trust. Maybe we should hire DD at head coach so he has a better shot at Dude's girlfriend than Musberger!

Most never agree with me- but I think the young GM should be matched with a seasoned coach- I would liked to have seen Norv Turner hired at HC with Horton at DC- Of course if Marty Schottenheimer wants to coach he would get it hands down-

I think if Keim thinks this is a reload not a rebuild this is obvious- We have very little depth at any position and are over the salary cap- playing in the most talented division in football for the next 5 years-

Silver lining- a young HC might get us alot of early draft picks in this division for the next 5 years!
 
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