Unflattering Picture of the Suns

[Mainstreet]

Really? That happens so often I never even pay attention when they make those kind of comments. And for all we know, Nash came to him after his statement and suggested it was time to part ways. I know I've read something along those lines although I don't recall the timeline of events.

The thing is Nash created the trade with the Lakers because he wanted to be near his family and he needed the Suns to give him more salary. Otherwise he could have signed with Lakers as a free agent. The thing with Babby, I listened to him on talk radio a lot. He was overly emphatic he was going to keep Nash when his intent was not to re-sign him. If Nash didn't want the extra salary, Babby would not have gotten anything for Nash. I'm not going to toot his horn.

 

[Mainstreet]

Now that I don't think matters at all. Teams do that stuff all the time. If you admit you want to move a guy or are willing to let them go then the last thing you want to do is announce it to the world. Instead you project the opposite to maximize value.

I don't know if you followed the Kevin Towers Dbacks but he was the opposite. He had no poker face, he announced his intentions loudly and boldly, letting everyone know who he wanted to dump and what type of player he wanted to get... and as a result he got absolutely fleeced in every transaction. It was like playing "Go Fish" with someone who has their cards face up on the table.

I'm not familiar with the Kevin Towers situation so I can't comment here. If Nash didn't need the Suns to get some extra bucks he would have signed with the Lakers as a FA. I know teams do the trade game all the time (like Markieff) however I think Babby overplayed his hand although he enacted two first round draft picks when he saw the opportunity.

 

[Catlover]

The thing is Nash created the trade with the Lakers because he wanted to be near his family and he needed the Suns to give him more salary. Otherwise he could have signed with Lakers as a free agent. The thing with Babby, I listened to him on talk radio a lot. He was overly emphatic he was going to keep Nash when his intent was not to re-sign him. If Nash didn't want the extra salary, Babby would not have gotten anything for Nash. I'm not going to toot his horn.

I still don't understand what your issue is. It seemed to me that we intended to keep Nash all the way up to the point where he asked us to consider trading him.

 

[Mainstreet]

I still don't understand what your issue is. It seemed to me that we intended to keep Nash all the way up to the point where he asked us to consider trading him.

I don't have an issue other than I am not a fan of Lon Babby. IMO, the Suns were not going to bring back Steve Nash unless he signed a near minimum type contract. I thought this was clear at the time. Nash was not going to do this so he needed the Suns to work a trade with the Lakers.

 

[Catlover]

I don't have an issue other than I am not a fan of Lon Babby. IMO, the Suns were not going to bring back Steve Nash unless he signed a near minimum type contract. I thought this was clear at the time. Nash was not going to do this so he needed the Suns to work a trade with the Lakers.

Actually, I had thought the opposite was true at the time. But I didn't follow everything close back then so some of my opinion is shaped by what Nash and Babby both said a few years later. It seemed to me that we were determined to keep Nash regardless of on-court results or even salary and that was a mandate from the top down. But Nash wanted to get closer to his kids and asked them to move him instead.

 

[Mainstreet]

Actually, I had thought the opposite was true at the time. But I didn't follow everything close back then so some of my opinion is shaped by what Nash and Babby both said a few years later. It seemed to me that we were determined to keep Nash regardless of on-court results or even salary and that was a mandate from the top down. But Nash wanted to get closer to his kids and asked them to move him instead.

I think Nash would have been quite happy staying in Phoenix if the Suns were willing to offer him a 3 year, $28 million contract. He was close enough to his family playing with the Suns but the Lakers were willing to offer him another option so he could stay near his children. The Suns were not going to pay him this amount of money. Anyway, this is my recollection. Babby's assurances that Nash would remain a Sun didn't carry any water. Of course the media would try to make this situation more palatable for both sides.

 

[Catlover]

I think Nash would have been quite happy staying in Phoenix if the Suns were willing to offer him a 3 year, $28 million contract. He was close enough to his family playing with the Suns but the Lakers were willing to offer him another option so he could stay near his children. The Suns were not going to pay him this amount of money. Anyway, this is my recollection. Babby's assurances that Nash would remain a Sun didn't carry any water. Of course the media would try to make this situation more palatable for both sides.

I know the sticking point was the 3 years. IIRC, we'd offered more per year than your deal but we were only willing to do a 2 year deal. Regardless, I don't think we betrayed him any more than he betrayed us. It would have been foolish to lock him up for 3 more years but it's equally understandable that he would try and land that kind of contract.

 

[3rdside]

Look at his career outside that one season. As far as this subject goes Goran is the one with the credibility problem. His struggles had nothing to do with the Suns, they were the result of him not being particularly good to begin with.

And yes, a guard who averages 14 points, is not particularly good at passing and is a bad defender... 6-7 mil sounds about right. Its what Thomas got as a free agent (and Thomas is better than Dragic), its what Dragic got when he was a free agent. He is being paid for a career year, while his career numbers pain the picture of a very average player.

17.9 pts, 7.3 ast, 4.7 rbd over the last ten and might only get better with a faster pace now that joe johnson has replaced Bosh in the line up.

I have no problem saying Dragic is hardly the next coming of Magic Johnson but to suggest he's a $6m player is flat out wrong; the guy is really only in his third year as the outright starting point guard and he's entitled to an adjustment period, which we're getting to the end of now, before judging him against the size of his contract.

The Miami fans are pretty happy with him as things stand so I'm saying (again) let's see how he goes from here.

 

[3rdside]

And it's great to see Dragic on a team with Joe Johnson and Amare Stoudemire (with G. Green on the bench)...it's like SSOL: the (g)olden years!

If there was ever a case to support a second team..

 

[SirStefan32]

17.9 pts, 7.3 ast, 4.7 rbd over the last ten and might only get better with a faster pace now that joe johnson has replaced Bosh in the line up.

I have no problem saying Dragic is hardly the next coming of Magic Johnson but to suggest he's a $6m player is flat out wrong; the guy is really only in his third year as the outright starting point guard and he's entitled to an adjustment period, which we're getting to the end of now, before judging him against the size of his contract.

The Miami fans are pretty happy with him as things stand so I'm saying (again) let's see how he goes from here.

It's not Bosh being out, it's the fact that they finally figured out Dragic is more effective without Wade. When Wade is out, Dragic is in now. Naturally, his numbers are getting much better. Dragic is by far a better point guard than anything we have on the roster- he just needs the ball in his hands, and he needs to be able to run. Unfortunately, he can only do that part-time in Miami. He is overpaid, but he is by no means a $6M player Bledsoe fans here suggest him to be.

 

[Phrazbit]

17.9 pts, 7.3 ast, 4.7 rbd over the last ten and might only get better with a faster pace now that joe johnson has replaced Bosh in the line up.

I have no problem saying Dragic is hardly the next coming of Magic Johnson but to suggest he's a $6m player is flat out wrong; the guy is really only in his third year as the outright starting point guard and he's entitled to an adjustment period, which we're getting to the end of now, before judging him against the size of his contract.

The Miami fans are pretty happy with him as things stand so I'm saying (again) let's see how he goes from here.

lol, a 3 year adjustment period for a guy who is nearly 30? The excuses are laughable.

He is a system player. Period. And its a system that when he is in the middle of it at his best his team's ceiling is rather low... because his ceiling is rather low.

And you're misconstruing my point about his wages. I said if not for his career year he'd be making about a third of what he is right now, which given his career numbers outside of that one season it is very difficult to claim otherwise. You can sit there and make all these excuses and claim he has all these great qualities, but its all based on how he played for a brief stretch in one season on a team that he was piloting... while it fell out of playoff position.

Yippie.

Miami can keep him.

 

[Phrazbit]

It's not Bosh being out, it's the fact that they finally figured out Dragic is more effective without Wade. When Wade is out, Dragic is in now. Naturally, his numbers are getting much better. Dragic is by far a better point guard than anything we have on the roster- he just needs the ball in his hands, and he needs to be able to run. Unfortunately, he can only do that part-time in Miami. He is overpaid, but he is by no means a $6M player Bledsoe fans here suggest him to be.

My thoughts on him have nothing to do with liking or not liking Bledsoe. We could have let Bledsoe walk in free agency and I'd still have these thoughts, I had these thoughts before we got Bledsoe. Dragic is mediocre.

 

[sunsfan88]

17.9 pts, 7.3 ast, 4.7 rbd over the last ten and might only get better with a faster pace now that joe johnson has replaced Bosh in the line up.

I have no problem saying Dragic is hardly the next coming of Magic Johnson but to suggest he's a $6m player is flat out wrong; the guy is really only in his third year as the outright starting point guard and he's entitled to an adjustment period, which we're getting to the end of now, before judging him against the size of his contract.

The Miami fans are pretty happy with him as things stand so I'm saying (again) let's see how he goes from here.

Yea and I'm not sure why some are surprised by the decrease in his stats. He's playing for a good team now and he's the 2nd option now and 3rd option when Bosh was healthy. Seems obvious that his numbers would come down. Similar to Kevin Love's numbers decreasing when he came to CLE from Miami or Bosh's numbers decreasing when he came to MIA from Toronto.

Miami is one of the best teams in the league and their fans in large part credit Dragic (and Whiteside) for that because they finally have a threat at PG that they never had in the past with guys like Chalmers & Cole.

 

[3rdside]

lol, a 3 year adjustment period for a guy who is nearly 30? The excuses are laughable.

He is a system player. Period. And its a system that when he is in the middle of it at his best his team's ceiling is rather low... because his ceiling is rather low.

And you're misconstruing my point about his wages. I said if not for his career year he'd be making about a third of what he is right now, which given his career numbers outside of that one season it is very difficult to claim otherwise. You can sit there and make all these excuses and claim he has all these great qualities, but its all based on how he played for a brief stretch in one season on a team that he was piloting... while it fell out of playoff position.

Yippie.

Miami can keep him.

1 yr adjustment with the Heat, which is now over and we're seeing what he's got - which is pretty good, averaging 18 and 7 over the last 10 as mentioned, with his team going 7-3 (on a 4 game streak) and looking like they're warming up nicely for the playoffs.

Misconstruing you're point about wages? If Steph Curry didn't win the Nba title last year, he's not an NBA champion. He did though and so he is. Dragic had that year regardless if you think it was a fluke / cause of the system / whatever excuse you want to make. It happened.

I think you just personally dislike the guy - which is fine - but to say a guy who got nominated for the outright MVP 3 times averaging 20 and 6 with a 21.4 PER is worth $6m is ridiculous. At that price - and ignoring IT for now as he's clearly underpaid - you're equating Dragic to the likes of Patrick Beverley, Michael Kidd-Gilchrist and Greivis Vasquez...these guys suck, Dragic doesn't.

 

[3rdside]

Yea and I'm not sure why some are surprised by the decrease in his stats. He's playing for a good team now and he's the 2nd option now and 3rd option when Bosh was healthy. Seems obvious that his numbers would come down. Similar to Kevin Love's numbers decreasing when he came to CLE from Miami or Bosh's numbers decreasing when he came to MIA from Toronto.

Miami is one of the best teams in the league and their fans in large part credit Dragic (and Whiteside) for that because they finally have a threat at PG that they never had in the past with guys like Chalmers & Cole.

I hear no Miami fans complaining about Dragic, at $17m or otherwise.

 

[slinslin]

I hear no Miami fans complaining about Dragic, at $17m or otherwise.

That you have some selective hearing, a lot of their fans would have loved to ship him away at the deadline.

 

[3rdside]

That you have some selective hearing, a lot of their fans would have loved to ship him away at the deadline.

Was a little too broad brush in what I said but I'm referring to the average fan's sentiment today, based on everything that's happened since the deadline.

 

[3rdside]

It's not Bosh being out, it's the fact that they finally figured out Dragic is more effective without Wade. When Wade is out, Dragic is in now. Naturally, his numbers are getting much better. Dragic is by far a better point guard than anything we have on the roster- he just needs the ball in his hands, and he needs to be able to run. Unfortunately, he can only do that part-time in Miami. He is overpaid, but he is by no means a $6M player Bledsoe fans here suggest him to be.

They're both playing 34 minutes or so each game since the all-star break meaning, if what's in bold holds as strong as it can, about 40% of their time on is without the other...a quick glance show's Dragic's +/- to be noticeably better than Wade's (crudely +12 vs +3). Possibly to do with facing the subs I guess, but maybe not..I haven't actually watched any of their games.

 

[SirStefan32]

They're both playing 34 minutes or so each game since the all-star break meaning, if what's in bold holds as strong as it can, about 40% of their time on is without the other...a quick glance show's Dragic's +/- to be noticeably better than Wade's (crudely +12 vs +3). Possibly to do with facing the subs I guess, but maybe not..I haven't actually watched any of their games.

Substitution patterns are weird. Dragic will go out around the six minute mark, come back (and Wade will leave) with two minutes left in a quarter, etc.
It's simple- one likes to run, one likes a slow game. The more time you can have with just one of them on the floor, the better off you will be. I don't put much stock in +/-, but the eye test says that they are a better team with Dragic running the show, particularly if Whiteside, Green, and Winslow are with him. Wade appears to be better with Bosh and Deng.

It's a weird fit- I am really not sure why Miami wanted Goran so bad while keeping Wade. Both of them are great, but they are a terrible fit together.

 

[SirStefan32]

I can't find exactly what I am looking for (points scored, shots taken, etc with Dragic and Without Wade vs. regular lineup), but this seems to support my eye test:
http://www.sbnation.com/2016/2/17/1...rade-rumors-plan-dwyane-wade-hassan-whiteside


If someone can find a way to easily look it up, I would love to see shots taken, number of possessions, points scored in games without Wade vs. Miami's normal lineup.

EDIT: This has some elements of what I would like to see:
http://stats.nba.com/team/#!/1610612748/onoffcourt/

I still think the full effect is not felt until we take a look at games where Wade did not play at all. I tracked it for two games and Miami scored 15+ points over their season average.

 

[Catlover]

Substitution patterns are weird. Dragic will go out around the six minute mark, come back (and Wade will leave) with two minutes left in a quarter, etc.
It's simple- one likes to run, one likes a slow game. The more time you can have with just one of them on the floor, the better off you will be. I don't put much stock in +/-, but the eye test says that they are a better team with Dragic running the show, particularly if Whiteside, Green, and Winslow are with him. Wade appears to be better with Bosh and Deng.

It's a weird fit- I am really not sure why Miami wanted Goran so bad while keeping Wade. Both of them are great, but they are a terrible fit together.

The games I've watched Dragic was at his best with Deng and Whiteside out there. He and Luol ran the 2 man game maybe as well as Goran and Frye used to. I haven't watched a lot of the Heat though so maybe the games I caught were the exception.

 

[Phrazbit]

1 yr adjustment with the Heat, which is now over and we're seeing what he's got - which is pretty good, averaging 18 and 7 over the last 10 as mentioned, with his team going 7-3 (on a 4 game streak) and looking like they're warming up nicely for the playoffs.

Misconstruing you're point about wages? If Steph Curry didn't win the Nba title last year, he's not an NBA champion. He did though and so he is. Dragic had that year regardless if you think it was a fluke / cause of the system / whatever excuse you want to make. It happened.

I think you just personally dislike the guy - which is fine - but to say a guy who got nominated for the outright MVP 3 times averaging 20 and 6 with a 21.4 PER is worth $6m is ridiculous. At that price - and ignoring IT for now as he's clearly underpaid - you're equating Dragic to the likes of Patrick Beverley, Michael Kidd-Gilchrist and Greivis Vasquez...these guys suck, Dragic doesn't.

Dragic is now a 3 time MVP nominee? Wow... interesting. I'm guessing you meant to say he received 3 votes, but really he got 3 points in the voting system, which it appears you don't understand how that voting system works. To put such an overstatement on showing up 16th in the NBA voting one year is pretty silly, especially to phrase it the way you did making it appear as though he was considered for MVP on 3 separate occasions, when in reality what likely happened is one writer (probably one of our local guys) put him 3rd on their ballot.

Furthermore... you're still basing all of that on one season out of his entire career which in light of the rest of his career stands out as a fluke. Its not bias, I don't hate him. I'm calling a spade a spade. He isn't terrible, he is mediocre. There is one thing he excels at, transition, everything else he ranges from somewhere between mediocre to flat out lousy. The total package creates a mediocre player who requires a very specific circumstance to play well and in that circumstance IMO (Dragic as the focal point of everything, and a pure transition offense) his team's ceiling inherently becomes rather low.

 

[sunsfan88]

I hear no Miami fans complaining about Dragic, at $17m or otherwise.

They have no reason to, he's the best PG a they have had in years.

 

[Cheesebeef]

wait a sec... Dragic has a good ten games in a row for the first time in two years... and now he's a god amongst Suns fans again? Are you guys kidding with this? Soon, we'll probably have people telling us it's only a matter of time before he's a night in/night out 23/10 guy again.

 

[3rdside]

Dragic is now a 3 time MVP nominee? Wow... interesting. I'm guessing you meant to say he received 3 votes, but really he got 3 points in the voting system, which it appears you don't understand how that voting system works. To put such an overstatement on showing up 16th in the NBA voting one year is pretty silly, especially to phrase it the way you did making it appear as though he was considered for MVP on 3 separate occasions, when in reality what likely happened is one writer (probably one of our local guys) put him 3rd on their ballot.

Furthermore... you're still basing all of that on one season out of his entire career which in light of the rest of his career stands out as a fluke. Its not bias, I don't hate him. I'm calling a spade a spade. He isn't terrible, he is mediocre. There is one thing he excels at, transition, everything else he ranges from somewhere between mediocre to flat out lousy. The total package creates a mediocre player who requires a very specific circumstance to play well and in that circumstance IMO (Dragic as the focal point of everything, and a pure transition offense) his team's ceiling inherently becomes rather low.

I’m really not trying to pull the wool over anyone’s eyes but I give you that my memory served me incorrectly about Dragic and the MVP voting system. What I should have said is that Dragic was considered the 5th best player in the NBA by 3 people (for 3 points as you say). But that in its own right is a substantial accomplishment.

As to the ‘fluke’ season which you keep calling it (I call it a progression season - it was only his second year as a pure starter):

After last night’s game (23 and 5) Dragic is now averaging 19.2pts and 7.2ast over the last 10. Sure, 10 games isn’t enough to prove anything, but his stats have been trending upwards for the entire season and at this rate he’s more likely to prove me right – that he’s a good player on an expensive, but digestible, contract – than you; that he’s a mediocre player worth $6m per.