Upon Further Review...

[RedViper]

I don't think there has ever been an NFL team that needs more to win at any cost, than these Cardinals. Nothing in the universe short of consistently winning football, and a lot of it, will fill those 50 thousand empty seats. People in the Valley just don't believe. They've had their necks stepped on every time they've stuck them out for these Redbirds.

I personally admire Green's willingness to go against everything and everyone to do it his way. This guy is so completely willing to work without a net. When the wins don't come, the line to take Green's head off will be a long one. But I am glad to see Green do things his own way. If we wanted business as usual or someone to toe the line, it would have been better to keep Coach Dave.

 

[Duckjake]

For all you newbies, Walter is just mad that the Cards hired Dennis Green instead of Charlie Weis.

 

[Redheart]

I dont know who VF is but I am not a green apologist...

No problem clif, most posters here get it. A few are always going to try and put you in a "category" to try and minimize your point(s) BECAUSE they don't agree with it.

I think your points are as good as any. Welcome to the jungle...

 

[clif]

No problem clif, most posters here get it. A few are always going to try and put you in a "category" to try and minimize your point(s) BECAUSE they don't agree with it.

I think your points are as good as any. Welcome to the jungle...

thanks I appreciate the post.. I will be here alot.. it is kinda addictive to debate the issues whatever side you are on. Most people I try to debate the cards with have no clue.. or cant even name a current or former play so there is no need to waste my time.

 

[Mulli]

Get this, I saw a billboard today in Mesa that stood out because it was for VF Factory Outlet. The VF caught my eye from a quarter mile away. I have lost it. My mental illness has taken over.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Yes, my reaction to Green's fabrications, double standards and manifestations of his insatiable ego was preciptous. No question. I gotta tell you...I wrote the editorial from 2:00-4:00 AM...because I couldn't sleep. The tape of the Viking game was really eating at me. I did not like what I saw at all...to me the players looked dis-spirited...and, for that matter, so did all the coaches. Dennis Green was looking on in chagrin...seemingly above it all. I couldn't stop thinking of new offensive coordinator Alex Wood...and I had this indelible image of Green hovering over Wood's shoulder...Wood, who looks alot like Tony Dungee, looked like a deer caught in the headlights...he appeared so nervous I thought his hands were trembling.

The problem with me is...I am always more loyal to the players than I am to the coaches or the administrators..that's the teacher and coach in me. TE Steve Bush may be irrelevant and insignificant to some of you. To me, when I think of Steve Bush I think of how hard he played for the Cardinals. I never once saw this guy slacking on the field...never. And if Bush didn't make that nice sliding TD catch on fourth down on the penultimate drive in the Minnesota game...Nathan Poole never would have been given the keys to city of Green Bay. Therefore, when a diligent and loyal player like Steve Bush is cut without the chance to even try to make the team in training camp, it bothers me to the bone. Dennis Green has been with the Cardinals for six months...Steve Bush has worked his butt off for this franchise for three years. This is where the organization should make sure that players like Bush get at least a fair chance to compete for his job.

I think it was a major coup last year when Rod Graves was able to sign soon-to-be unrestricted free agent, L.J. Shelton. How many times has that happened with the team's better players? Therefore, I feel especially loyal to L.J., because he was especially loyal to the organization. And I think some of you may be forgetting all the good things Graves and the Bidwills have done over the past few years. They have shown exemplary loyalty to the players...to the point of abandoning their old contract policies...by allowing for bells and whistles...in order to keep up with the times and ultimately get players signed on time. And they've started to get players signed before the end of the season...the way the Eagles have done so commendably the last few years.

The irony is that I really don't think Dennis Green has to rehaul the current roster all that much. Why? I think that there's good talent on this roster...(except at nose tackle) that needs to be developed in ways the previous staff were unable to, partly because the old staff was so set on sticking with the veterans, many times regardless of their lackluster performances.

When the Cardinals win a game this year, the media will undoubtedly say that it's all about Dennis Green. Does that stick well with you? Will it stick well with the players? IMO the two best coaches in the NFC right now are Andy Reid (PHI) and John Fox (CAR)...both unassuming, diligent, blue collar guys who shine the spotlight on their players...and, take the burden on their own shoulders when things don't go well.

As for the Green and Parcells comparisions...they are very different. Parcells develops remarkable relationships with his players...even asks them to call him Bill. Yes he drives them...but...he is able to because he takes the time to learn what buttons he needs to push with each player. Parcells is also perhaps the most accessible coach in the NFL to the media. Green fosters a disdain for the media...why? Because of credibility issues. No one questions Parcells' credibility. The media has ALWAYS questioned Green's credibility and rightly so. Question to ponder: Why was Green so emphatically booed in Minnesota upon his return?

Russ, you are right that Green got a nice settlement from the Vikings when he stepped aside...but consider this scenario. Suppose two years ago, Tampa Bay put Dennis Green on the top of their list over Jon Gruden...Green would have hopped all over that job. The thing is..no team courted Green the last two years. None. This year there were so many head coaching vacancies, Green was finally able to get a sniff.

Green won in Minnesota...with several different QBs...but all of those QBs had Cris Carter and Jake Reid to throw to...and then Randy Moss (who dropped into Denny's hands...and to Denny's credit, he reined Moss in, for the most part). His defenses were not very good...adequate at best...which is why they experienced quick exits in the playoffs. Despite the winning, Green aliented a lot of perople in Minnesota...mostly because...he felt he was bigger and better than the whole organization...bigger than the players, bigger than the fans and bigger than the owner.

Yes, this coach can win. The question is...is Green's way the way you want the Cardinals to win? If I was Mr. B., I'd send Green packing and name Mike Kruczak the interim head coach...before Green starts cutting the likes of L.J. Shelton, Levar Fisher, Dennis Johnson and Dexter Jackson.

P.S. Tango...you and I go waaaaay back, my friend. Props to you.

Red Desert, Shane, Section 11 & 40 yr. fan: Thanks for watching my back. You guys are four of the major reasons why I write these articles...you are first-rate fans, through and through.

well walter, you and i disagree a lot, and this is no different. i don't give a crap what kind of man green is. if he wins, then that's good enough for me. loyalty to the players? the same losers that get their million dollar (or, excuse me, $325,000) paychecks regularly for continuing to suck at their jobs? the guys that my money goes to when i buy tickets, nfl apparel, or watch games on television? no, my loyalty is to fielding a winning team. i don't care if green lies to me. why should i? do i rely upon him for my livelihood or my day-to-day happiness? no. and if he can eventually give me a week of happiness with a sunday "w," then he can continue to lie and lie and lie. keep your loyalty to the losers. keep your righteous indignation. it's the reason we have continued to lose for years. those are things that the coach macs of the world worry about.

and denny's players, those that have truly bought into his system, and his former assistant coaches, for the most part, swear by denny. he's not the awful individual you paint. but sure, go to extremes. to quote one of your own . . . the sky is falling, the sky is falling. sheesh, we've played one friggin' preseason game for goodness sake.

 

[Tangodnzr]

well walter, you and i disagree a lot, and this is no different. i don't give a crap what kind of man green is. if he wins, then that's good enough for me. loyalty to the players? the same losers that get their million dollar (or, excuse me, $325,000) paychecks regularly for continuing to suck at their jobs? the guys that my money goes to when i buy tickets, nfl apparel, or watch games on television? no, my loyalty is to fielding a winning team. i don't care if green lies to me. why should i? do i rely upon him for my livelihood or my day-to-day happiness? no. and if he can eventually give me a week of happiness with a sunday "w," then he can continue to lie and lie and lie. keep your loyalty to the losers. keep your righteous indignation. it's the reason we have continued to lose for years. those are things that the coach macs of the world worry about.

Ahhh yes...spoken like a true attorney.

 

[Mulli]

Ahhh yes...spoken like a true attorney.

That must be why I agree with Ouchie so much.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

i agree with ouchie.To think that Green only had to tweak the talent on this team is being very unrealistic.The Cards have had,by far,the worst talent and depth in the NFL for the last 2-3 years.Look at our defense last year.Only Barret,Jackson,Wilson, and Thompson would even have a chance at starting on another team.On offense,there's basically Boldin,Davis,and Kendall that could start on another team.Shelton and FJ would have a chance.So , we had less than 1/5 of the roster that was actually capable of starting in the league.
These palyers are learning a new system,a new attitude, and an actual NFL way of doing things.For them to struggle in their first road PRE-SEASON game is no surprise at all.To call for Green's job after one PRE-SEASON game is about the most ignorant thing i've ever read on a fan board.And i usually read Tango's posts . Worse off,i used to read NEM's posts.

 

[BuckeyeCardinal]

That must be why I agree with Ouchie so much.

That's why I don't.

Just kidding.

A defense attorney was cross-examining a police officer during a felony
> > >trial - it went like this:
> > >
> > >Q. Officer, did you see my client fleeing the scene?
> > >
> > >A. No sir, but I subsequently observed a person matching the
description
> of
> > >the offender running several blocks away.
> > >
> > >Q. Officer, who provided this description?
> > >
> > >A. The officer who responded to the scene.
> > >
> > >Q. A fellow officer provided the description of this so-called
offender.
> Do
> > >you trust your fellow officers?
> > >
> > >
> > >A. Yes sir, with my life.
> > >
> > >Q. With your life? Let me ask you this then officer, do you have a room
> > >where you change your clothes in preparation for your daily duties?
> > >
> > >A. Yes sir, we do.
> > >
> > >Q. And do you have a locker in that room?
> > >
> > >A. Yes sir, I do.
> > >
> > >Q. And do you have a lock on your locker?
> > >
> > >A. Yes sir.
> > >
> > >Q. Now why is it, officer, if you trust your fellow officers with your
> > >life, that you find it necessary to lock your locker in a room you
share
> > >with those same officers?
> > >
> > >A. You see sir, we share the building with the entire court complex,
and
> > >sometimes lawyers have been known to walk through that room.
> > >
> > >With that, the courtroom erupted in laughter, and a prompt recess was
> > >called. The officer on the stand has been nominated for this year's
best
> > >comeback line and we think he'll win.
> > >

 

[joeshmo]

well walter, you and i disagree a lot, and this is no different. i don't give a crap what kind of man green is. if he wins, then that's good enough for me. loyalty to the players? the same losers that get their million dollar (or, excuse me, $325,000) paychecks regularly for continuing to suck at their jobs? the guys that my money goes to when i buy tickets, nfl apparel, or watch games on television? no, my loyalty is to fielding a winning team. i don't care if green lies to me. why should i? do i rely upon him for my livelihood or my day-to-day happiness? no. and if he can eventually give me a week of happiness with a sunday "w," then he can continue to lie and lie and lie. keep your loyalty to the losers. keep your righteous indignation. it's the reason we have continued to lose for years. those are things that the coach macs of the world worry about.

and denny's players, those that have truly bought into his system, and his former assistant coaches, for the most part, swear by denny. he's not the awful individual you paint. but sure, go to extremes. to quote one of your own . . . the sky is falling, the sky is falling. sheesh, we've played one friggin' preseason game for goodness sake.

 

[AzCards21]

No appology or explanation should be neccessary Walter. Keep doing what you're doing and let the chips fall.

So, a lot of us disagreed with your initial post. You still have the same odds of being correct as we do. 50/50.

The only difference between your opinion and mine is, I can't write an article to save my life. But I do enjoy reading yours. Keep up the good work.

 

[john h]

Yes, my reaction to Green's fabrications, double standards and manifestations of his insatiable ego was preciptous. No question. I gotta tell you...I wrote the editorial from 2:00-4:00 AM...because I couldn't sleep. The tape of the Viking game was really eating at me. I did not like what I saw at all...to me the players looked dis-spirited...and, for that matter, so did all the coaches. Dennis Green was looking on in chagrin...seemingly above it all. I couldn't stop thinking of new offensive coordinator Alex Wood...and I had this indelible image of Green hovering over Wood's shoulder...Wood, who looks alot like Tony Dungee, looked like a deer caught in the headlights...he appeared so nervous I thought his hands were trembling.

The problem with me is...I am always more loyal to the players than I am to the coaches or the administrators..that's the teacher and coach in me. TE Steve Bush may be irrelevant and insignificant to some of you. To me, when I think of Steve Bush I think of how hard he played for the Cardinals. I never once saw this guy slacking on the field...never. And if Bush didn't make that nice sliding TD catch on fourth down on the penultimate drive in the Minnesota game...Nathan Poole never would have been given the keys to city of Green Bay. Therefore, when a diligent and loyal player like Steve Bush is cut without the chance to even try to make the team in training camp, it bothers me to the bone. Dennis Green has been with the Cardinals for six months...Steve Bush has worked his butt off for this franchise for three years. This is where the organization should make sure that players like Bush get at least a fair chance to compete for his job.

I think it was a major coup last year when Rod Graves was able to sign soon-to-be unrestricted free agent, L.J. Shelton. How many times has that happened with the team's better players? Therefore, I feel especially loyal to L.J., because he was especially loyal to the organization. And I think some of you may be forgetting all the good things Graves and the Bidwills have done over the past few years. They have shown exemplary loyalty to the players...to the point of abandoning their old contract policies...by allowing for bells and whistles...in order to keep up with the times and ultimately get players signed on time. And they've started to get players signed before the end of the season...the way the Eagles have done so commendably the last few years.

The irony is that I really don't think Dennis Green has to rehaul the current roster all that much. Why? I think that there's good talent on this roster...(except at nose tackle) that needs to be developed in ways the previous staff were unable to, partly because the old staff was so set on sticking with the veterans, many times regardless of their lackluster performances.

When the Cardinals win a game this year, the media will undoubtedly say that it's all about Dennis Green. Does that stick well with you? Will it stick well with the players? IMO the two best coaches in the NFC right now are Andy Reid (PHI) and John Fox (CAR)...both unassuming, diligent, blue collar guys who shine the spotlight on their players...and, take the burden on their own shoulders when things don't go well.

As for the Green and Parcells comparisions...they are very different. Parcells develops remarkable relationships with his players...even asks them to call him Bill. Yes he drives them...but...he is able to because he takes the time to learn what buttons he needs to push with each player. Parcells is also perhaps the most accessible coach in the NFL to the media. Green fosters a disdain for the media...why? Because of credibility issues. No one questions Parcells' credibility. The media has ALWAYS questioned Green's credibility and rightly so. Question to ponder: Why was Green so emphatically booed in Minnesota upon his return?

Russ, you are right that Green got a nice settlement from the Vikings when he stepped aside...but consider this scenario. Suppose two years ago, Tampa Bay put Dennis Green on the top of their list over Jon Gruden...Green would have hopped all over that job. The thing is..no team courted Green the last two years. None. This year there were so many head coaching vacancies, Green was finally able to get a sniff.

Green won in Minnesota...with several different QBs...but all of those QBs had Cris Carter and Jake Reid to throw to...and then Randy Moss (who dropped into Denny's hands...and to Denny's credit, he reined Moss in, for the most part). His defenses were not very good...adequate at best...which is why they experienced quick exits in the playoffs. Despite the winning, Green aliented a lot of perople in Minnesota...mostly because...he felt he was bigger and better than the whole organization...bigger than the players, bigger than the fans and bigger than the owner.

Yes, this coach can win. The question is...is Green's way the way you want the Cardinals to win? If I was Mr. B., I'd send Green packing and name Mike Kruczak the interim head coach...before Green starts cutting the likes of L.J. Shelton, Levar Fisher, Dennis Johnson and Dexter Jackson.

P.S. Tango...you and I go waaaaay back, my friend. Props to you.

Red Desert, Shane, Section 11 & 40 yr. fan: Thanks for watching my back. You guys are four of the major reasons why I write these articles...you are first-rate fans, through and through.

Walter I am looking at this situation from afar (Little Rock) so do not see what is going on up close and personal. All I really knew about Green was from observing him on TV and at MN. His early proclomations about a 10/6 record, McCown and Smith named as starters almost the day he arrived. Cutting some good players who we really could use have me really concerned with what where he is going with this team. I get this gut feeling this is more about Green than the Cardinals. At this point I think we are clearly a worse team than last year. Most professional sports analysist think we are and will be terrible. I do also. You do not have to be a football coach to look at this team and see the many problems we have. I have to think the Bidwill's and Graves are wondering to themselves just what have they gotten themselves into? Leaders in industry as well as leaders in pro sports have a lot in common. So far Dennis has in my estimation made some terrible mistakes and the season has not even began. I am a 50 + year Card fan and I do not say these things lightly. I wonder if Rod Graves has agreed with all these proclamations and moves Dennis has made or is Rod taking a back seat. I read post about Dennis making this "his" team. What I want his for him to help make this a competitive team and take the "I" and "his" out of this. It looks to me like we are several years away even if we make the right moves from this point forward to be competitive. I fear next year we will be looking for a QB with our 1st round draft pick which will probably be #1. We have drafted so high for so long how can we continue to be so bad. How many 1st round picks are starting for this team? I know some of our 1st rounders are starting for other teams and are darn good.

 

[john h]

Good stuff as always Walter, however I disagree.

If Green can win, I dont care how he does it. I just want to see this team go to the playoffs, and eventually win a SB.

It seems there is a lot of controversey over Green and the season has not even started. Even in Cardinal world this is most unusual. We usually wait until we have lost 4-5 early games before we get on the coach. This tells me we are seeing some things we do not like from this coach and if we can see it now it will only get worse when we start playing for real.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

It seems there is a lot of controversey over Green and the season has not even started. Even in Cardinal world this is most unusual. We usually wait until we have lost 4-5 early games before we get on the coach. This tells me we are seeing some things we do not like from this coach and if we can see it now it will only get worse when we start playing for real.

see, i say exactly the opposite. things are different you say? we're up in arms now instead of the usual 4-5 week waiting period? those who do not learn from their mistakes and change their ways are doomed to repeat them. at least this is something new. does it dawn on any of you naysayers that the cards doing something drastically different than they've done over the past however-many-years of futility may actually be a GOOD thing?!? i think y'all have become so accepting and complacent in mediocrity and sucking that now that green is shaking things up and scaring some of us you think it's bad. ANYTHING that is a departure from the past is a GOOD thing.

with the fear of sounding like vikesfan - what have the bidwills and graves done for us? all their "good moves" last year still amounted to 4 wins. green's way has been proven a winner. if it takes some of his ridiculous arrogance to win at the expense of the good-guy graves-types i'm all for it. usually those that are arrogant have reason to at least be self-confident. i'd much rather have an arrogant sonofabitch leading our squad than a mealy nice guy.

 

[joeshmo]

see, i say exactly the opposite. things are different you say? we're up in arms now instead of the usual 4-5 week waiting period? those who do not learn from their mistakes and change their ways are doomed to repeat them. at least this is something new. does it dawn on any of you naysayers that the cards doing something drastically different than they've done over the past however-many-years of futility may actually be a GOOD thing?!? i think y'all have become so accepting and complacent in mediocrity and sucking that now that green is shaking things up and scaring some of us you think it's bad. ANYTHING that is a departure from the past is a GOOD thing.

with the fear of sounding like vikesfan - what have the bidwills and graves done for us? all their "good moves" last year still amounted to 4 wins. green's way has been proven a winner. if it takes some of his ridiculous arrogance to win at the expense of the good-guy graves-types i'm all for it. usually those that are arrogant have reason to at least be self-confident. i'd much rather have an arrogant sonofabitch leading our squad than a mealy nice guy.

 

[Mulli]

The naysayers should also consider that "the moves made by Graves and the Bidwills" includes firing Mac and bringing in Green. Green didn't just show up here. The Cards' Admin hired him and paid him a lot of money!!

 

[clif]

you know this is off the subject but Mac should have been in charge of Marketing and not Head Coach. I think he could come up with better stuff then they got running right now.

That man would make you run through a wall.. unfortunately his coaching staff would have put you in the wrong scheme to do it.

 

[40yearfan]

you know this is off the subject but Mac should have been in charge of Marketing and not Head Coach. I think he could come up with better stuff then they got running right now.

That man would make you run through a wall.. unfortunately his coaching staff would have put you in the wrong scheme to do it.

 

[CardLogic]

Yesterday on NFL.com I read the following, I don't remember the writer or article, but he was commenting upon the QB situations for the Giants and Redskins; i.e.- young gun vs. veteran. The quote really sums up the situation with us the fans and what is occurring with the Cardinals and Denny Green. (I have edited the quote; using color; to fit the thread discussion.)

I have my opinions about the quarterback situations with the Giants and Redskins Cardinals, but they're not very well informed at this point. Like everyone else, I'm going to wait and see how it plays out. So much of it is determined by what the coaches are looking at. Are they looking to the future? Are they looking toward later in the year, or to win this week? What are the scenarios the coaches are making their judgments on?

That's information that we're not privy to, and that's what is going to determine who wins these quarterback (pick position) battles.

It's fun to debate the goings on with the Cardinals, that's why we are all here.

But in reality all of us are on the outside looking in... We can assume this and surmise that, but NONE of us knows what is going on inside the Cardinal camp; and that includes the so-called sports writers and Cardinal Insiders! That's the way it is and that is the way not only Denny Green but also Rod Graves and the Bidwill's prefer it to be.

So we will all have to wait and see the outcome on Sundays!

 

[Mulli]

you know this is off the subject but Mac should have been in charge of Marketing and not Head Coach. I think he could come up with better stuff then they got running right now.

That man would make you run through a wall.. unfortunately his coaching staff would have put you in the wrong scheme to do it.

Is that why Kendall didn't finish a season? Mac made him run into a wall?

 

[Duckjake]

McGinnis' teams usually hit the wall about midway through the first quarter.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Let me remind you that the team, playing shorthanded and more with the youngsters, was very competitive down the stretch against three quality playoff caliber teams in Carolina (NFC Champs), Seattle and Minnesota.
...despite predictable schemes from the coaching staff. With the right coaching and the addition of a quality nose tackle, a veteran WR and safety (in case DJ remains injured)...this team has the talent to win...right now. Shifting Shelton to guard or RT would upgrade the offensive line. And if Josh McCown settles down...BJ and LF return healthy to stem the tide until AB gets back...I like the Cardinals' chances.

once again Walt - you are just way over-stating the case here. Let's really take a look at those three games up there okay? I seem to remember the Seahags putting up a 21 spot against us into the second quarter - then I seem to remember their Pro Bowl QB going down with an injury and their entire offense shutting down for the rest of the game and scoring only one more TD - and BTW - we still lost by 18 points in that game . . . I fail to see where we played "well" in that =game.

The let's look at the Carolina game - do you think we did ANYTHING special in that game? EVERY SINGLE GAME CAROLINA PLAYED went down to the wire - be it versus good teams or bad - and considering it was on the road - where almost EVERY team in the league seemed to struggle last year - I hardly think this LOSS was something to brag about.

Then the Vikings game - a fluke if we all ever saw one - Do you not remember being dominated for 57 minutes of that game only to have a miracle comeback after being down 17-6 - that is not what I call a well-played game.

Personally - I think your editorial was laughable and your notion that guys like Prestons Parsons and Steve Bush (who hasn't landeda job ANYWHERE else) being cut were bad things, and pointing out that Parsons led to us some "furious" 4th quarter comebacks in PRESEASON games, again make me question your football accumen.

Get over yourself man - to say that you'r enot going to be a fan of this team and you will be rooting for them to fail until Green is gone is pure lunacy IMO. Hell, even in my heyday as leader of the realists, I never said I hoped we would loose so we could fire Graves - I always - ALWAYS maintained that I was desperate to be proven wrong and I have said as much about Graves this offseason - but the stuff you've been spiuting off about makes you just come off as some whiny little brat - didn't expect it from you.