Wanted: A REAL Offensive Coordinator-apply AZ Cardinals

[GuernseyCard]

One thing that gets me is the lack of creativity. I know he can do it, he showed us that in 2019. He showed us he can use multiple personnel groups also in 2019 that work. Yet in 2020 he stops doing all of that. There's a play I talked about in another thread from last year that was so creative. The one where Maxx Williams scored the long TD against the Falcons in 2019. Larry was making fun of the way Williams ran. Kirk swung out into the right flat in motion, Kyler acted like he was gonna throw it to him. Maxx ran a delayed route towards the left sideline, the whole Falcons defense bought it & went to Kirk's side, Maxx was wide open. That play was absolutely brilliant. I remember thinking at the time, "we got us a coach that will keep defenses guessing" boy was I wrong. He hasn't used that play since, let alone anything close to that creative. The time he spends watching film he talks about, where's the creativity at? I thought this guy would be hell bent in the off-season drawing up plays with creativity but he wasn't it seems. He's talked about the NFL being a copy cat league, everyone draws up plays from other teams plays. Ok Kliff, start copying some of the stuff Andy Reid runs & come up with your own versions. Use that time at the office as a copy cat. I know we don't have the weapons that the Chiefs have but the concepts, routes, trickery & misdirection can be used with what we have. I hope KK turns it around, I really do. I bleed Cardinal red through & through & became a fan in 1976 when I was in the second grade. Hopefully he spends this off-season designing stuff that works & meshes with what he's comfortable doing? Minus the bubble screens lol.

Actually, IMO - he should adapt some of the outside zone concepts used by Shanahan, McVay and Lafleur: more under centre play action, throwing on the run, etc. Rogers is the best at it because of his arm talent, and unless you stop the run, Jared Goff and Jimmy Garoppolo look more than adequate. This is what H-C Kevin Stefanski added in Cleveland and Mayfield has benefited greatly.

 

[BritCard]

2020 vs 2019 (Offence)

2020: Yds per game: 385 (6)
2019: Yds per game: 342 (21)
2020: rush: 140 (7)
2019: rush: 125 (10)
2020: pass: 245 (17)
2019: pass: 217 (24)
2020: QBR: 94.1 (15)
2019: QBR: 87.0 (18)
2020: sacks: 29 (12)
2019: sacks: 50 (27)
2020: 3rd down: 39.7 (22)
2019: 3rd down: 36.0 (23)
2020: Pts per game: 25.6 (13)
2019: Pts per game: 22.6 (17)

I wonder what that looks like if you take away Kyler's first 4 games where he had a massive rookie learning curve? From 5 onwards he made some big strides. Also the first 4 games of Kliff and Vance.

On points it takes us to 12th and 23.9 points per game if you remove those first 4. I imagine it does something similar with the other stats. The yards per game in 2019 was 342 but the last 3 games of the season were 416. Passing yards per game in 2019 were 245, but were 273 in the last 3 games.

Our average points scored in the last 4 games of 2019 was 26.5. So the offense we saw this year seems really to just be a continuation of last year. It just took a while it the 1st season for players to "get it" and for a rookie QB to adjust.

On the face of it, from Game 5 of 2019 to now the offense hasn't really improved much. I think you can argue the whole of the improvement has come from just adding better players. Hopkins obviously but also a full season of Drake, and improved Edmunds, Dan Arnold, a better O line, more designed runs for Kyler.

I can't see anything to suggest Kliff has made any progress other than other than in the RZ. But you could argue those player additions and Kyler's running are the reason for that too and you could see that mostly at the end of last season.

 

[BritCard]

Actually, IMO - he should adapt some of the outside zone concepts used by Shanahan, McVay and Lafleur: more under centre play action, throwing on the run, etc. Rogers is the best at it because of his arm talent, and unless you stop the run, Jared Goff and Jimmy Garoppolo look more than adequate. This is what H-C Kevin Stefanski added in Cleveland and Mayfield has benefited greatly.

This.

You want to see the offense we should be running with Kyler just watch Matt LeFleur's offense.

Kyler = Rodgers
Edmonds = Jones
Nuk = Adams
Arnold = Tonyan

The two offenses couldn't get more dissimilar is style yet they have a very similar make up of players. What LeFleur does with that offense is exact what Kliff should be doing and seeing how far we are away from that level of creativity only reinforces my opinion of Kliff as a coach.

 

[Cardsfaninlouky]

Actually, IMO - he should adapt some of the outside zone concepts used by Shanahan, McVay and Lafleur: more under centre play action, throwing on the run, etc. Rogers is the best at it because of his arm talent, and unless you stop the run, Jared Goff and Jimmy Garoppolo look more than adequate. This is what H-C Kevin Stefanski added in Cleveland and Mayfield has benefited greatly.

Oh trust me, I also want KM under Center & play action with roll outs, KM is deadly accurate on the right hand side all alone with no DL to see over. When I mentioned the Andy Reid scheme, I meant that for creativity, watch the Chiefs, those guys run some crazy stuff at times & their guys run wide open. They have weapons but the trickery & misdirection they use scheme them open. KK could learn a lot by watching that offense & he's smart enough to come up with his own concepts from that offense. It's just a matter of actually doing it. Last season when he started using 12 & 21 personnel I was shocked, KM was under center even. It worked & he admitted he used the Ravens playbook to put his own stamp on those plays.

 

[BritCard]

He has been learning and not been stubborn. His 'Air Raid' offense has completely changed from where he started. You can say a lot about KK, but not learning/adapting isn't one of them.

It hasn't completely changed. The concepts are still very much the same. He's just far less 10 pers and more 11 and 12.

But the route concepts and the scheme as a whole is still very much Air Raid, which is bad.

There's a bad misconception about Air Raid which I think comes from it's name. Air Raid! Woohoo. Big bombs. Aggressiveness. etc etc but it's crap.

Air Raid is "offense for dummies". It's a very basic system that at it's core is designed to be simple enough for ******** teenagers to understand and remember and relies on the WR's being bigger, faster and more talented than the DB's they face. Which generally they are. It's having enough WR's that they are often single covered and can win by being better athletes.

Obviously Kliff has had to adapt it because none of that translates to the NFL, but at it's heart the route concepts are still very basic and it's still built around some core concepts that once teams figure them out are not difficult to stop.

 

[BritCard]

If we can all predict what KK is going to do in given situations, I imagine the opposition can as well. Obviously, at some point you want to get to where that doesn't matter and even if they know what you're going to do you execute it so well so often that it just works. We are nowhere near that. I'm not saying the guy has to be groundbreaking in any way but where is this "creative genius" we were all sold on? Where is the "Air Raid" that was supposed to revolutionize the game? Some of the most boring play calls in Cardinals' history every week including so many short tosses where the WR or RB is expected to get massive YAC in order to get close to a first down. SMH.

The Air Raid isn't an advancement on traditional football, it's a regression. It only looks like an advancement in college when it's worked because it takes away the mistakes that dumb kids make with more complicated systems.

It only has 5 core routes. In often only uses 40-50 plays. And often an entire game is scripted by situation and practiced to death.

I assume that's why we can go no huddle so much when we need to because we have a bunch of plays scripted for those situations, but what happens when an NFL team figures those scripts out?

It's not anything any NFL should have as the core for it's offensive scheme. No matter how much it's adapted.

 

[BritCard]

Hopkins started running some plays on the right that last few games.

Your star WR running a handful more routes on the opposite side of the field shouldn't really be considered progress, but thats where we are.

 

[Cardsfaninlouky]

It hasn't completely changed. The concepts are still very much the same. He's just far less 10 pers and more 11 and 12.

But the route concepts and the scheme as a whole is still very much Air Raid, which is bad.

There's a bad misconception about Air Raid which I think comes from it's name. Air Raid! Woohoo. Big bombs. Aggressiveness. etc etc but it's crap.

Air Raid is "offense for dummies". It's a very basic system that at it's core is designed to be simple enough for ******** teenagers to understand and remember and relies on the WR's being bigger, faster and more talented than the DB's they face. Which generally they are. It's having enough WR's that they are often single covered and can win by being better athletes.

Obviously Kliff has had to adapt it because none of that translates to the NFL, but at it's heart the route concepts are still very basic and it's still built around some core concepts that once teams figure them out are not difficult to stop.

It works well in college because you can have 8 WR's to run it properly. 2 deep at all 4 spots. They can rotate & stay fresh plus they aren't getting paid. Not enough cap space to pay 8 in the NFL without having less at other positions. When Hal Mumme (the architect of the air raid) brought it to Kentucky in 1997 he basically had 10-15 plays, this is Why Tim Couch struggled at first in Cleveland. He wasn't used to a huge playbook. Mumme used the same concepts that are still in a true air raid today. He sometimes would call timeouts & literally draw plays up on a board like a basketball coach. The offense KK runs isn't like what Mumme ran at Kentucky, same concepts are there but it's different. The closest you will see today to the Mumme air raid is what Mike Leach uses at Mississippi State. KK doesn't use a true air raid.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

One thing he definitely isn't learning is that the east/west bubble screens gain nothing, so he keeps calling them. I think we just got stopped for another 4 yard loss lol?

This isn't a KK issue. This has been an issue since the Cards have been in AZ at least.

 

[Krusher kardinals]

No way Kliff is going to hand over the keys to someone else. Pipedream of the highest order.

He has a bigger chance of being fired than him not calling plays.

You are mistaken ....these arent his call
Keim makes those calls
Kk has no voice in it

 

[dreamcastrocks]

You are mistaken ....these arent his call
Keim makes those calls
Kk has no voice in it

If you think that KK doesn't have a voice in who calls the plays as a HC, you are mistaken.

 

[cardncubfan]

One thing that gets me is the lack of creativity. I know he can do it, he showed us that in 2019. He showed us he can use multiple personnel groups also in 2019 that work. Yet in 2020 he stops doing all of that. There's a play I talked about in another thread from last year that was so creative. The one where Maxx Williams scored the long TD against the Falcons in 2019. Larry was making fun of the way Williams ran. Kirk swung out into the right flat in motion, Kyler acted like he was gonna throw it to him. Maxx ran a delayed route towards the left sideline, the whole Falcons defense bought it & went to Kirk's side, Maxx was wide open. That play was absolutely brilliant. I remember thinking at the time, "we got us a coach that will keep defenses guessing" boy was I wrong. He hasn't used that play since, let alone anything close to that creative. The time he spends watching film he talks about, where's the creativity at? I thought this guy would be hell bent in the off-season drawing up plays with creativity but he wasn't it seems. He's talked about the NFL being a copy cat league, everyone draws up plays from other teams plays. Ok Kliff, start copying some of the stuff Andy Reid runs & come up with your own versions. Use that time at the office as a copy cat. I know we don't have the weapons that the Chiefs have but the concepts, routes, trickery & misdirection can be used with what we have. I hope KK turns it around, I really do. I bleed Cardinal red through & through & became a fan in 1976 when I was in the second grade. Hopefully he spends this off-season designing stuff that works & meshes with what he's comfortable doing? Minus the bubble screens lol.

He seemed to be a lot more conservative for some reason. I agree he has called some great plays like the one to Maxx like you said.

 

[Broseph]

I'm sure what others are thinking what is the point of having KK if he's not calling the plays?

 

[cardncubfan]

I wonder what that looks like if you take away Kyler's first 4 games where he had a massive rookie learning curve? From 5 onwards he made some big strides. Also the first 4 games of Kliff and Vance.

On points it takes us to 12th and 23.9 points per game if you remove those first 4. I imagine it does something similar with the other stats. The yards per game in 2019 was 342 but the last 3 games of the season were 416. Passing yards per game in 2019 were 245, but were 273 in the last 3 games.

Our average points scored in the last 4 games of 2019 was 26.5. So the offense we saw this year seems really to just be a continuation of last year. It just took a while it the 1st season for players to "get it" and for a rookie QB to adjust.

On the face of it, from Game 5 of 2019 to now the offense hasn't really improved much. I think you can argue the whole of the improvement has come from just adding better players. Hopkins obviously but also a full season of Drake, and improved Edmunds, Dan Arnold, a better O line, more designed runs for Kyler.

I can't see anything to suggest Kliff has made any progress other than other than in the RZ. But you could argue those player additions and Kyler's running are the reason for that too and you could see that mostly at the end of last season.

Why do you want to take away games? Makes no sense at all.

 

[Cardsfaninlouky]

This isn't a KK issue. This has been an issue since the Cards have been in AZ at least.

Well it needs to be figured out asap cause those plays don't work for us at all.

 

[Krusher kardinals]

If you think that KK doesn't have a voice in who calls the plays as a HC, you are mistaken.

Wanna bet

 

[Cardsfaninlouky]

Wanna bet

MB & SK said this during the press conference the day KK was hired. I'm paraphrasing of course. "We just wanted to hire KK as the head coach & not as on OC so he couldn't be lured away as another team's head coach". If it gets to the point the play calling of KK can't produce much during next season he will be gone imo? He wants to call the plays & if he isn't allowed it's not gonna be a good situation for him. He would second guess his forced OC's play calls if that scenario happens? As long as he's our head coach, he will call the plays. I hope he reinvents his playbook this offseason? I know we need more weapons on offense like a #2 & 3 WR but something has to change. Our offense numbers wise in 2020 was light years ahead of 2019, however, after a 6-3 start, we limped to a 2-5 record the last seven games. That's not good. The most frustrating games for me this season were the games against the Lions, Patriots & Panthers. We can debate the last 2 games all we want & it's a legit discussion but those 3 games cost us the playoffs. No excuse to lose those 3 games.

 

[Cardsfaninlouky]

Your star WR running a handful more routes on the opposite side of the field shouldn't really be considered progress, but thats where we are.

It should've happened more often. I kept wanting them to even put Hopkins in motion, imagine the cushion he could get from a DB trying to cover him with a running start?

 

[FB94]

Year one with KK seemed to have more creative/effective plays than year two. To my recall, way to many horizontal passes and runs straight up the middle, all with less pre snap motion. I hope we bring in a vet offensive voice that can help smooth out play sequences that just seems very off at times, and Better clock mgmt. Year three with KM needs to have the training wheels taken off and expect him to read defenses better and not isolate our best WR on one side only

 

[dreamcastrocks]

Wanna bet

You have to be trolling. How can you bet something that can't be proven either way?

 

[BritCard]

Why do you want to take away games? Makes no sense at all.

Why do I want to take away the first 4 games of a rookie HC and rookie QB?

You really need to ask that?

 

[Brian in Mesa]

98.7 playing clips this morning of KK talking with Scott Van Pelt and he is asked "What would it take to let someone else come in and call the plays?" KK said he'd have to be retired for that to happen. He said "Some guys are good at managing games, but that's not me...I have to be working with the QB closely and calling the plays...that's what I am good at doing."

 

[TaylorSwift]

98.7 playing clips this morning of KK talking with Scott Van Pelt and he is asked "What would it take to let someone else come in and call the plays?" KK said he'd have to be retired for that to happen. He said "Some guys are good at managing games, but that's not me...I have to be working with the QB closely and calling the plays...that's what I am good at doing."

He is not an NFL head coach, but Cards will need to make due in the near term.

Managing games is the core of winning as a head coach in the NFL(heck even in college), kind of bizarre of him to say this.

 

[AZman5103]

98.7 playing clips this morning of KK talking with Scott Van Pelt and he is asked "What would it take to let someone else come in and call the plays?" KK said he'd have to be retired for that to happen. He said "Some guys are good at managing games, but that's not me...I have to be working with the QB closely and calling the plays...that's what I am good at doing."

Which is why he should be an OC at best.

The HC has to manage the game and the team as a whole.

They should have brought Kliff in as the OC under a better HC. Now that move would be impossible.

 

[WisconsinCard]

He is not an NFL head coach, but Cards will need to make due in the near term.

Managing games is the core of winning as a head coach in the NFL(heck even in college), kind of bizarre of him to say this.

Agreed, then he needs a right hand man next to him managing the details of the game. It been discussed for a long time about coaches getting caught up in calling plays that they let details slip by. It would be a reason for so many wasted timeouts. If he going to be an NFL head coach he needs to be able to multitask and do it all or the NFL will stand for "not for long" for KK. Or pass other duties off to someone else.