Warner most underated?

[Russ Smith]

The Giants line was a sieve. Manning didn't have as many sacks due to 2 reasons mainly: 1- Manning was more able to scramble for his life, 2- Coughlin called for a lot more quick hitters w/ Manning in than w/ Warner. Warner was using 4-5 step drops, while Manning mostly 3 step quick hitters. Thus one of the reasons for the disparity in YPC numbers.

BTW, on Law's picsix, Warner was hit in the head by Vrabel as he was throwing. Should have been a roughing the passer at the very least. How accurate would you be getting hit in the head while throwing?

You might find the following video interesting: (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3529369093687376012). It's not nearly as comprehensive as the afore-mentioned but interesting none the less. 3 different shot to the head on Warner. The clip w/ Faulk being held is also interesting. Faulk complained that that happened all game long. The other video showed that, as well as Bruce & Holt getting the same treatment. The video also showed Holt getting the jacknife treatment by 2 Pat.'s defenders on a ball thrown to the opposite side of the field.

Sorry that video is really hard to watch with the big letters and the grainy pic, I got part way through and gave up. I'm guessing that wasn't a Bernie Kukar fan.

Eli had exactly 6 runs that year so I don't think he was avoiding too many sacks by scrambling unless they all ended in passes thrown away.

I do agree they changed the offense a bit but I don't think it was as drastic as you think it was. According to profootball reference.com Warner averaged 11.8 yards per completion, Eli 11.0. There was a much larger discrepancy in yards per attempt largely because Kurt completed 63% of his passes, Eli 48.


as for the other stuff at the end of the day it doesn't really matter if Kurt was hit in the head by Vrabel or not if it's not called and the ball goes for a picksix, it impacts the outcome of the game. I was merely pointing out that saying Kurt should have been MVP of that game even as the losing team is ignoring his 2 picks led to 10 points for the other team.

We all tend to pick out certain plays and certain calls, I guarantee you on virtually every play in that game if you look hard enough you can find a penalty that wasn't called.

I don't disagree the Pats were holding that was the complaint all year that year, the NFL made it a point of emphasis the next season. But we can only go on what is actually called in the game.

Given that I still say 2 superbowl wins in 3 years is better than 1, and the author didn't say Kurt was as good as them in his first 3 years he was suggesting if he was on a different team he'd have been as good as them for a career.

Yes Kurt took a pounding in the Martz system, that's the design of that offense there's so many guys out in the patterns that it exposes the QB to hits. That's one reason why it produces so many big plays too, it's hard to cover that many guys. it's an attrition game teams keep hitting the QB until he starts to falter.

it's not bashing Warner to say he simply isn't in the same ballpark as Favre and Brady for a career, at his peak he was a terrific NFL QB, he just had a short peak.

 

[Cards_Campos]

This guy stole my Article!

 

[conraddobler]

I hope Warner proves the guy right and we win the Superbowl.

Winning the Superbowl with the Cardinals elevates you to God status and you should become impervious on Madden, able to score on every play, even go in on defense and cause the other team to simply hand you the ball and run off the field.

 

[Russ Smith]

I hope Warner proves the guy right and we win the Superbowl.

Winning the Superbowl with the Cardinals elevates you to God status and you should become impervious on Madden, able to score on every play, even go in on defense and cause the other team to simply hand you the ball and run off the field.

Absolutely. Look at how much play Jake still gets for one playoff win 10 years ago when the defense was the key to the game.

If Warner can win a Superbowl here he'd be untouchable for the rest of his life to Cards fans.

I hope it happens too.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

Absolutely. Look at how much play Jake still gets for one playoff win 10 years ago when the defense was the key to the game.

If Warner can win a Superbowl here he'd be untouchable for the rest of his life to Cards fans.

I hope it happens too.

Newly resigned Oliver Celestin on the practice squad would be untouchable if we won the Superbowl.

 

[nashman]

Kurt in my eyes could be the BEST QB the cards have had since they been in AZ simply by winning a division title, if I am not mistaken we haven't ever won one.

 

[Russ Smith]

Kurt in my eyes could be the BEST QB the cards have had since they been in AZ simply by winning a division title, if I am not mistaken we haven't ever won one.

Not in ARizona.
We won the NFC East 2 years in a row 1974 and 1975 while still in St. Louis.

 

[nashman]

Thats what I meant Russ the Arizona Cardinals/Phoenix Cardinals have never won the division since being here. The one time they did make the playoffs this town went kinda crazy can you imagine if they can win the division!

 

[RedLine]

Favre brought a revival to the Jets, something that KW wouldn't have been able to do. Not in the least.

Too early to say.... All the Jets have done is beat the fish. Not much of an accomplishment.

 

[RedLine]

Although I respect your opinion, I would take issue w/ a few of your points. Albeit, Favre has been remarkably resilient, he's had some very pedestrian years when not surrounded by talent & a running game. Warner's lack of playing time in his NFL stint since the Rams has been more due to politics than injuries.

Perhaps you forget that no one thought the Rams were any good in '99 when Warner took over. Most were looking at the Rams draft placement for the following year when Trent Green went down that year. What Warner did the following 3 years far exceeded Brady's first 3 years in the league as a starter.

Since then, the 2 have taken 2 completely different tracks. But what if the tracks had been reversed? What if Brady had been kicked to the curb by the likes of an egomaniac named Martz? What if Brady had played for the woeful Giants & subsequently the woeful Cards until last year? Do you really believe that Brady would be held in such great favor as he enjoys now? Brady is no better than any other qb w/o passpro as evidenced by last years SB. When the 2 have gone head to head, Warner has done far better than Brady.

If Warner had played for the Pats all this time, w/ all that protection, there's no doubt in my mind he might have set records that may have never been broken. As a long time coach, I can tell you, he is that good!

Montana was a great qb b/c he was great, but equally b/c he played on a great team. As I've stated before, if Montana had played for the Saints instead of the Niners, he would have never even sniffed the Hall.

Perspective man.

I agree with your arguments. The other thing that people fail to remember is that except for those first 2 years with the Rams, Kurt has played behind horrible O-lines with the Rams, Giants and Cards until last year.

No quarterback can be successful without 2 seconds of protection, even Brady.

 

[RedLine]

and I think you're glossing over why Kurt ceased to be a Ram, it was because he could no longer play in Martz' system he'd been hit too much and was showing signs of being punchdrunk, they benched him to protect him.

With the Giants he knew his job coming in, manage the game, wait for Eli manning to be ready to play, he was doing well enough to keep them in games they were 5-4 when he got benched. Again not to belabor the point but he was benched largely because he had 12 fumbles and had been sacked 39 times in those games and the sacks were getting worse week to week. as soon as Manning took over the sacks dropped off, in 80 less attempts on the same team, as a rookie, Manning was sacked 26 times less than Warner. They benched Kurt not just to play Manning, but to protect Warner.

Who has been more successful in Martz's system? No one, Martz kills quarterbacks. NO protection.

Disagree on the Giants. The O-line sucked, but Kurt was winning by making things happen. Manning didn't win squat, and they certainly did not bench Warner to protect him. Sack count is not the best measure of a QB. JMHO

 

[moklerman]

If Warner can win a Superbowl here he'd be untouchable for the rest of his life to Cards fans.

I'm not being snide when I say this, but I thought the same exact thing when he did it with the Rams. It didn't really hold true. Historically, the Rams have had a little more total success than the Cardinals but before 1999, they were just a game or two behind the Bengals as the worst team of the 90's and coming off of the Tony Banks/Lawrence Phillips era. Going from that to Super Bowl champs, in my mind, made a lot of those guys pretty untouchable. But many subscribe to the "what have you done for me lately" philosophy and other than Marshall Faulk, few of them retired as Rams. I guess my point is that it's easy to make those deals with the universe before you get the prize but it isn't a reality in the long term.

With Warner in particular it might work out that he would go down in Cardinals lore because he would likely go out on top or close enough to it that it would be the lasting memory. Ahhh, nothing like winning the season opener to get the fantasy juices flowing, huh?

 

[Gee!]

If Warner can win a Superbowl here he'd be untouchable for the rest of his life to Cards fans.

Not to me.. The Warnerphiles have ruined the Warner experience for me.. Im not rooting against Kurt, just its a little over the top and disgusting to me that they will praise Warner and not the Cards..

 

[RedLine]

Just because of a couple of "never done pimpin" dudes, I wouldn't make that blanket statement. I like all the Cards, including Warner and Leinart. I think there's more like me than like them. If that makes any sense....

 

[Gee!]

Just because of a couple of "never done pimpin" dudes, I wouldn't make that blanket statement. I like all the Cards, including Warner and Leinart. I think there's more like me than like them. If that makes any sense....

I hope your not talking to me.. Because I intentionally stressed and used the word "me" in my post.. Dont catch feelings for me talking for myself.. If thats what your doing.. If you aint talking to me, try quoting someone sometime, the confusion wouldnt be there...

 

[Russ Smith]

Thats what I meant Russ the Arizona Cardinals/Phoenix Cardinals have never won the division since being here. The one time they did make the playoffs this town went kinda crazy can you imagine if they can win the division!

Oh yeah like I said in another thread just the amount of adulation Jake still gets for that one playoff win tells you if this team did it again and succeeded people would go nuts.

Talk about stored up potential energy.

 

[Russ Smith]

Not to me.. The Warnerphiles have ruined the Warner experience for me.. Im not rooting against Kurt, just its a little over the top and disgusting to me that they will praise Warner and not the Cards..

I get what you're saying and I certainly can relate. I told someone in a PM the other day I really dislike this stuff because I don't dislike Warner at all and if he's the starter I hope he plays well so the team can win. I just have a thing where I don't like to see what I consider to be hyperbole or exaggeration. If that article didn't suggest Kurt was on a par with Favre and Brady I'd have never responded to begin with and I suspect that's the case with several others in this thread. But I keep getting sucked into these threads where it looks like I don't like Warner when all I'm doing is debating the accuracy of how people depict his career.

I don't care who is the QB if we win the superbowl I'm going to go bananas and I suspect you would too. Too many years of frustration waiting to come out.

 

[RedLine]

I hope your not talking to me.. Because I intentionally stressed and used the word "me" in my post.. Dont catch feelings for me talking for myself.. If thats what your doing.. If you aint talking to me, try quoting someone sometime, the confusion wouldnt be there...

No, I wasn't referring to you. Try this: "never done pimpin dudes" = "Warnerphiles".

I was trying to say there are a lot more of us Cards first fans who also support Warner or trust Coach to make the best QB decision, than there are "Warnerphiles".

I won't let a few extremists either way ruin the Warner or Team experience for me.

I was pretty tired when I posted, so that's why I added the "If this makes any sense" line!

 

[Russ Smith]

Who has been more successful in Martz's system? No one, Martz kills quarterbacks. NO protection.

Disagree on the Giants. The O-line sucked, but Kurt was winning by making things happen. Manning didn't win squat, and they certainly did not bench Warner to protect him. Sack count is not the best measure of a QB. JMHO

He had 6 TD passes in those 9 games, they were not winning because Kurt was making things happen. Quite the opposite they were winning because he wasn't turning it over as much as usual(4 picks and most of the 12 fumbles were recovered by the G men which btw statistically is sheer luck). The defense was good, they had a terrific run game(despite the O-line sucking apparently) and they were in games. Manning lost predictably most rookie QB's do, but again the sacks immediately dropped off.

I wasn't judging a QB by sacks I was pointing out that your claim the OL sucked was based on sacks and how often Kurt was being hit, but when Manning took over both of those dropped off dramatically. Warner wasn't exactly winging the ball all over the field with the Giants(again 6 TD passes in 9 games) so the claim that they radically changed the offense to protect Manning doesn't hold up.

I never said Manning then was better than Warner that year he wasn't, but the Giants simply decided Kurt wasn't going to survive so it was as good a time as any to play Eli. THey had started 5-2 before losing 2 games where Kurt struggled and got sacked over and over, they simply decided go to Eli now or continue to watch Kurt get pummeled. The next year they went 11-5 with Eli at QB, he wasn't great but he wasn't a sitting duck either. People like to say the went 1-6 with Eli so it was a horrible decision but they'd lost the prior 2 starts including a loss to us, with Kurt at QB, they simply couldn't protect him, he was a sack waiting to happen at that point in his career.


As bad as Eli has looked at times he played his best in the 2nd half of the season and playoffs last year and with that great defense won a Superbowl, it's hard to say they made the wrong decision given the W/L record from Manning's 2nd year on.

Kurt is still a good QB, he seems to have gotten a 2nd wind as a QB he protected the ball last week and was excellent the 2nd half of last season. He won the starting job fair and square and I hope he continues to play well. None of that justifies the authors claims comparing him to Brady and Favre.

 

[Cheesebeef]

here's what I don't get -

"He's better than Matt Hasselbeck or Jeff Garcia, and probably better than Donovan McNabb, or even Tom Brady — which is to say that given the same blockers and receivers, his career numbers would be better than theirs. That's a pretty safe bet, since Warner has been playing with bad-to-mediocre talent for much of his career, and his numbers are still better than theirs."

bad-mediocre talent? uh, what? Kurt played with 2 ALL-PRO RBs at his first two stops with Faulk and Tiki and has a decent back in his third stint with Edge, played with future HOFers Torry Holt and Issac Bruce in his first stint and possible HOFers Anquan Boldin and Fitz here. That's 5 HOFers and multiple Pro-Bowlers on offense that he got to work with. That was bad-to-mediocre talent and it was worse than:

McNabb, who had one season with TO and finally has another weapon with Westbrook, b ut for years had nothing to speak of on offense to help him?

Or Brady who before last year, NEVER had anything coming close to a Pro-Bowler amongst his offensive weapons?

Or Farve, who continually lost "Pro-Bowlers", who were never heard from again (Antonio Freeman, Bubba Franks or Dorsey Levens ring any bells for anyone?) and continually created new ones in their place?

Meanwhile, every single one of those guys mentioned above (Holt, Bruce, Fitz, Boldin, Tiki) ALL had season as good or better with or without Warner.

Dude's played with weapons his entire career and certainly more than the guy's listed at the beginning of the article.

Come on now.

 

[Mulli]

here's what I don't get - the article talks about what Kurt could do with the weapons Brady, Favre, Garcia and McNabb had... uh, what? Kurt has played with 2 ALL-PRO RBs at his first two stops with Faulk and Tiki and has a decent back in his third stint with Edge, and played with HOFers Torry Holt and Issac Bruce in his first stint and possible HOFers Anquan Boldin and Fitz here. That's 5 HOFers and multiple Pro-Bowlers on offense that he got to work with. That was less than:

McNabb, who had one season with TO and finally has another weapon with Westbrook, b ut for years had nothing to speak of on offense to help him? Or Brady who before last year, NEVER had anything coming close to a Pro-Bowler amongst his offensive weapons? Or Farve, who continually lost "Pro-Bowlers", who were never heard from again (Antonio Freeman, Bubba Franks or Dorsey Levens ring any bells for anyone?) and continually created new ones in their place?

Meanwhile, every single one of those guys mentioned above (Holt, Bruce, Fitz, Boldin, Tiki) ALL had season as good or better with or without Warner.

Dude's played with weapons his entire career and certainly more than the guy's listed at the beginning of the article.

Come on now.

agree completely.

 

[Lorenzo]

First off, yes Brady had 2 SB's to Warner's 1. The 2002 SB was an absolute joke w/ what the ref's let the Cheatriots get away w/. Apparently, had Martz chosen to have his team hold on defense like the Pats did, they would have gotten away w/ it as well, but he didn't. Warner outplayed Brady by a LONGSHOT in that game & probably should have won the MVP even though they didn't win. Brady was a joke that game!

Unless you have inside info on what Martz as thinking as he benched Warner, please save it. Both Faulk & Bruce at the time said Warner was the same as he had always been & they had no lack of confidence in him. My opinion is that Martz was trying more to prove how great he was by showing he could do it w/ any qb. Bulger had the same team as Warner did & never came close to the same #'s.

In Kurt's 4th year, he played half those games injured (broken throwing hand) on a team that was reeling after the SB loss. The whole team was in a funk.

He was benched w/ the Giants b/c he fumbled too much & had too many sacks? Coughlin has said Warner was the best he's ever seen or coached. Once again, Eli has never come close to Warner's #'s at the time or since. You may have a point that he may have been benched to save him, but not b/c of his inabilities, but b/c their line was like a sieve & he had no one to throw to. Kurt was doing the same thing in 06. He also had the same type of line!

Did you Notice Brady fumble in the SB last year? Was that b/c he had ball control problems, or b/c he got waxed? Warner definitely has ball control problems, no doubt about it, but they are severely overblown here. Most of his fumbles come when he is getting plastered. No one complained of those problems when he was lighting it up in St. Louis, & he fumbled plenty then too while he was setting all those records.

Please relate to me all the years & games missed for Warner due to health problems, especially the last several as he's gotten older.

Lastly, you made my point w/ the Montana deal, & the point I've been making all along. Great qb's play on great teams. Warner had those great years b/c he was a great qb, but also b/c he played for a great team. Same for Montana, same for Brady. Put any of those guys on the Saints, & it would be a very different story as it was for Archie Manning when he played for the Saints. Manning was great, but never had the careers that the others had, not b/c of his abilities, but b/c of the team. Same w/ Plunkett who was considered back up talent at best before he went to Raiders.

I appreciate your comments though & the civil discussion. Have a good one my friend.

I don't think kurt is underrated at all. I think the jets made the right choice given the situation. I think favre is a very good QB...not the greatest of all time. Kurt came out of no where and almost led the rams to two SBs. and people can get into the cheat arguement all they want to. and really it's just a bunch of people sucking lemons IMHO. Tom Brady was a winner in college. He was underrated coming out of college when you consider his resume. And what does he do? takes the job away from drew bledsoe and wins 3 SB's....WITHOUT a hof WR or RB or TE. In fact he really didn't even have a pro-bowl caliber WR on his team for those SB's. and what does he do when he gets randy moss and an undersized wes welker? he breaks all of the single season passing records. So forgive me for thinking it's unfair to compare warner to brady....or even say that brady is overrated. You may have a point with a guy like troy aikman. He had pro-bowl offensive lineman at almost every position(overrated or not they were stout). It was proven when emmitt, Irvin, or even Novacek didn't play the team wasn't the same. Yes Montana had the greatest WR of all time on his team...but he won SB's without rice. I really can't knock Joe Blo...he was a legend. but after all of this chatter yes A SB QB usually has strong players around him. especially up front in the OL. that's what kurt will need this year if he's to return to his form of years past.

I like kurt warner. But we'll see if he can last through the year. I think his best days are behind him, but he still can play at a high level when given time to throw the ball. When he starts taking hits....like most QB's especially the older slower ones....the confidence level and decision making goes south.

 

[CtCardinals78]

If there is any veteran QB who has been underrated these past couple years it has been Jeff Garcia.

 

[Athlon]

I don't think kurt is underrated at all. I think the jets made the right choice given the situation. I think favre is a very good QB...not the greatest of all time. Kurt came out of no where and almost led the rams to two SBs. and people can get into the cheat arguement all they want to. and really it's just a bunch of people sucking lemons IMHO. Tom Brady was a winner in college. He was underrated coming out of college when you consider his resume. And what does he do? takes the job away from drew bledsoe and wins 3 SB's....WITHOUT a hof WR or RB or TE. In fact he really didn't even have a pro-bowl caliber WR on his team for those SB's. and what does he do when he gets randy moss and an undersized wes welker? he breaks all of the single season passing records. So forgive me for thinking it's unfair to compare warner to brady....or even say that brady is overrated. You may have a point with a guy like troy aikman. He had pro-bowl offensive lineman at almost every position(overrated or not they were stout). It was proven when emmitt, Irvin, or even Novacek didn't play the team wasn't the same. Yes Montana had the greatest WR of all time on his team...but he won SB's without rice. I really can't knock Joe Blo...he was a legend. but after all of this chatter yes A SB QB usually has strong players around him. especially up front in the OL. that's what kurt will need this year if he's to return to his form of years past.

I like kurt warner. But we'll see if he can last through the year. I think his best days are behind him, but he still can play at a high level when given time to throw the ball. When he starts taking hits....like most QB's especially the older slower ones....the confidence level and decision making goes south.

With kurt decision making Yes confidence Never IMO

 

[Athlon]

If there is any veteran QB who has been underrated these past couple years it has been Jeff Garcia.

To tell you the truth I think Garcia is overrated. Any QB can win with a great D ask Trent Dilfer. Plus he just got benched. But I could be wrong it would not be the first time.
Kurt's trouble is the turnovers that will kill any QB Rep. IMO