Washed up pitchers

[Ryanwb]

Originally posted by Phill11
Lets just throw another name in here.
Kenny Rogers. Anybody think he would fit in good here in Arizona?

I don't know man, he really hit his peak with, "The Gambler" and his resturants filed for chapter 11

 

[Cland]

I don't mind signing Sparks at all. At the very least they guy will eat up innings but I think he could end up winning some games. He won 14 or 15 just a couple years ago. I'm not as confident in Reynolds who does seem like an older Dessens. It's pretty obvious we're hoping to catch lightning in a bottle with one of these guys.

 

[AZZenny]

'Hoping to catch lightning in a bottle'

- like winning the lottery, it's amazing fun if it happens, but it's a lousy way to plan for your kid's college education.
This may be more like the 'infinite monkeys/ typewriters=works of Shakespeare' cliche - collect innumerable cheap mediocre players, and perhaps one or more will have a career-year exactly when and where you need it. (Or like opening infinite stocking stuffers, assuming not all will be variations on a kitchen utensil and one will be the keys to a new convertible. )

It happened for us before - 2001 was a career year for several guys - but it's not really a great ongoing organizational plan. I'd prefer going with youth, and putting what money is spent into one or two good quality players. Of course, in 2003 it seemed like several guys had anti-career years, so...guess that's why they play the full season, guys - so all our squabbles can be worked out in real time. Me, I think JGJr is an incompetent.

btw, Damian Miller went to Oakland in a trade, apparently. Seems odd. I'd have thought him a little expensive for Oakland.

 

[Cland]

I completely agree AZZENNY. I would say the odds are that neither one of them will amount to more than an innings eater. But like you said, people have had career years here in the desert in the past. Hopefully it will happen again next year with one of these guys. (assuming they sign) I think Sparks will be OK though, maybe not a career year but enough for the back of the rotation. No, it's definitely not the best blueprint for success but when your hands are tied like Joe's are, there aren't a lot of other options.

 

[schillingfan]

Originally posted by Cland
I completely agree AZZENNY. I would say the odds are that neither one of them will amount to more than an innings eater. But like you said, people have had career years here in the desert in the past. Hopefully it will happen again next year with one of these guys. (assuming they sign) I think Sparks will be OK though, maybe not a career year but enough for the back of the rotation. No, it's definitely not the best blueprint for success but when your hands are tied like Joe's are, there aren't a lot of other options.

I think you missed Zenny's point. I think she was saying that it's a long shot wishin and hopin that one of them might actually result in something and a stupid move because there are other options - like play the kids from Tucson.

 

[Cland]

Originally posted by schillingfan
I think you missed Zenny's point. I think she was saying that it's a long shot wishin and hopin that one of them might actually result in something and a stupid move because there are other options - like play the kids from Tucson.

If that's the case then I only caught half of her point. I understand and agree that it's a long shot and not the best way to run an organization. As for the other option, I think we need to mix some vets in with all of the kids.

 

[Dback Jon]

One thing in favor of Reynolds/Sparks, as Cland pointed out, is the Dbacks need an inning-eater or two. Pitching the young'uns is great, but you don't want them putting up 200+ innings. We need at least one more guy to go every 5th day that can take a lot of innings.

 

[schillingfan]

Originally posted by Cland
If that's the case then I only caught half of her point. I understand and agree that it's a long shot and not the best way to run an organization. As for the other option, I think we need to mix some vets in with all of the kids.

RJ, Gonzo, Finley, Bautista, Sexson, Dessens, Baerga, Mayne. That seems like some good veteran presence. My question is that these pitchers are available this year and so I'm not sure why they aren't better than either Sparks or Reynolds - or certainly cheaper.

RJ
Webb
Dessens
Fossum (Schilling trade)
Good
Patterson (no options left)
Villareal
Koplove
Randolph
Valverde
Mantei
Lyon (Schilling trade)
Gonzalez

 

[mark1]

Originally posted by Dback Jon
One thing in favor of Reynolds/Sparks, as Cland pointed out, is the Dbacks need an inning-eater or two. Pitching the young'uns is great, but you don't want them putting up 200+ innings. We need at least one more guy to go every 5th day that can take a lot of innings.

Reynolds pitched 167 innings in 29 starts. Far from an innings eater. Sparks was so bad he was banished to the bullpen for a team that lost 119 games last year. Sparks or Reynolds won't eat innings, they'll just pitch bad baseball. Edgar Gonzalez pitched 250 innings last year between the minors and the winter leagues. Edgar could go 200 innings easy this year.

 

[Dback Jon]

Originally posted by mark1
Reynolds pitched 167 innings in 29 starts. Far from an innings eater. Sparks was so bad he was banished to the bullpen for a team that lost 119 games last year. Sparks or Reynolds won't eat innings, they'll just pitch bad baseball. Edgar Gonzalez pitched 250 innings last year between the minors and the winter leagues. Edgar could go 200 innings easy this year.

You really want a 21-year old pitching 200 innings?

 

[mark1]

Originally posted by Dback Jon
You really want a 21-year old pitching 200 innings?

If there quality innings, you betcha.

 

[Cland]

Originally posted by schillingfan
RJ, Gonzo, Finley, Bautista, Sexson, Dessens, Baerga, Mayne. That seems like some good veteran presence. My question is that these pitchers are available this year and so I'm not sure why they aren't better than either Sparks or Reynolds - or certainly cheaper.

RJ
Webb
Dessens
Fossum (Schilling trade)
Good
Patterson (no options left)
Villareal
Koplove
Randolph
Valverde
Mantei
Lyon (Schilling trade)
Gonzalez

I guess I just don't see the harm in having an extra vet or two that could take the mound in a couple different roles. Why wouldn't you want an extra option or two? It's not like the younger guys aren't going to get a shot. They'll get their chance.

 

[mark1]

Options are great, if there quality options.

To sign two crap pitchers to guaranteed contracts totaling 1.5 million for a team that is as cash strapped as the Dbacks, is not quality options, it's insanity.

BTW..whatever happened to our youth movement that Jr has been talking about all winter? Adding a 36 year old catcher, a 36 year old pitcher and a 38 year old pitcher doesn't sound like much of a youth movement to me. It sounds more like a bowel movement.

 

[schillingfan]

Originally posted by Cland
I guess I just don't see the harm in having an extra vet or two that could take the mound in a couple different roles. Why wouldn't you want an extra option or two? It's not like the younger guys aren't going to get a shot. They'll get their chance.

But that's just the point, the kids won't get their chance. If a veteran is signed to a guaranteed contract, he will be played. Which brings me back to my original question - what's the point?

Go youth movement. Give all the kids a chance and see who does the best.

 

[moviegeekjn]

Originally posted by mark1
BTW..whatever happened to our youth movement that Jr has been talking about all winter? Adding a 36 year old catcher, a 36 year old pitcher and a 38 year old pitcher doesn't sound like much of a youth movement to me. It sounds more like a bowel movement.

It sounds like Joe Jr. is operating without the blueprint.... Like he had a laundry list of "possible" needs with a certain amount of cash to spend and felt like he had to jump at the first items on the market to get his Christmas shopping outta the way. Being able to spend the allotted cash doesn't mean that you do so with schitzoid impulse buying.

 

[KingLouieLouie]

Originally posted by mark1
"Because Johnson and Moss are demanding long-term lucrative deals."


You don't have a clue what their looking for or what they'll sign for. They haven't even been non-tendered yet. If non-tendered, I hardly think either Johnson or Moss will get a "long term lucrative deal."

The point is, Jr should have waited to see what was available. You can always pick up scrap heap pitchers like Reynolds and Sparks before spring training.

Edit: Shane Reynolds averaged 5 2/3 innings per start last year for a good Atlanta Brave team. Like I said, he is an older Elmer Dessens.

First, I read somewhere that Johnson and Moss are seeking long-term contracts (and even that link you provided had Moss seeking a $4 mil per year dollar contract).... Those 2 weren't entirely impressive either....

Damian Moss

He pitched 165.2 innings last season and had a 92 Walks - 79 Ks, which is inadequate, especially for someone not even in their 30s.... And please explain to why he keeps on bouncing around from organization to organization?

Jason Johnson

He is also very erratic is seeking long-term security....

Mark Redman has a history of tired-arm syndrome (which shut him down in '01) and has never had 2 consecutive years without being afflicted by that ailment...He pitched in several games last-year and also was on the DL at one point....He would be a even a far more greater risk than Sparks and at a much higher price...

You stated that "I don't have a clue" on what they're looking for to sign.... I could retort that by saying, how do we know that Jerry C. and Co. havent had any contact with their agents? Everything we do on here is pure speculation.....

We can NOT all agree on your premise since it is based on so many assumptions... not all of them sound.

I wasnt asking everyone to agree on my premise..... I was saying that it is a must to have some veterans to prevent the younger prospects from ruining their arms from excessive usage....

Reynolds pitched 167 innings in 29 starts. Far from an innings eater. Sparks was so bad he was banished to the bullpen for a team that lost 119 games last year. Sparks or Reynolds won't eat innings, they'll just pitch bad baseball. Edgar Gonzalez pitched 250 innings last year between the minors and the winter leagues. Edgar could go 200 innings easy this year.

I was a life-long Tiger fan until I moved out to Phoenix, AZ, in May of '02, but solely now root for the Dbacks....Anyways, Sparks was impressive in '01, but the reason why he was "banished" to the bull-pen the last 2 seasons was that the Tigers were going for a youth movement (with a rotation consisting of Bonderman, Cornejo, Maroth, Van Hekken, etc.) and they knew that Sparks did not figure into their long-term plans....So, they cut ties with him.....

If there quality innings, you betcha.

Wow, you must be oblivious to what happened with Kerry Wood in Chicago or Josh Beckett and A.J. Burnett (a few others but they immediately come to mind) who came into the league their rookie season and pitched 200+ innings, but developed chronic arm-problems for not being a strict pitch-count, which I believe ultimately cost Jeff Tolborg his job last year in FL....So, you want Webb, Good, Gonzalez etc to be burnt-out? They (excluding Webb) will be limited on 90-100 (6 innings) pitch counts and with a BP that had pitchers with a history of injuries, getting Sparks and/or Reynolds into the fold doesnt hurt....And again, I reiterate, with most of the NL not familiar with the knuckle-ball, that makes Sparks even more effective....

 

[mark1]

moviegeek


I like your description "schitzoid impulse buying" that describes Jr pretty well.

 

[boondockdrunk]

I wouldnt mind having Sparks, but Reynolds. I would rather have Albie than that batting practice pitcher.

 

[schillingfan]

Originally posted by KingLouieLouie
Wow, you must be oblivious to what happened with Kerry Wood in Chicago or Josh Beckett and A.J. Burnett (a few others but they immediately come to mind) who came into the league their rookie season and pitched 200+ innings, but developed chronic arm-problems for not being a strict pitch-count, which I believe ultimately cost Jeff Tolborg his job last year in FL....So, you want Webb, Good, Gonzalez etc to be burnt-out? They (excluding Webb) will be limited on 90-100 (6 innings) pitch counts and with a BP that had pitchers with a history of injuries, getting Sparks and/or Reynolds into the fold doesnt hurt....And again, I reiterate, with most of the NL not familiar with the knuckle-ball, that makes Sparks even more effective....

I don't follow your logic here. How will getting another starting pitcher keep Webb, Good or Gonzalez from getting burnt out? If Reynolds takes the place of one of them, they won't get their arm burnt out, but neither will they get a chance to pitch!

The way young arms are protected is by effective bullpens. D-Backs seem to have more than enough bullpen arms with Mantei, Valverde, a returning Koplove, Villareal, Lyon (trade), Randolph and the aged Jesse Orosco, let alone Bruney simmering in Tucson. I could take Sparks as a possibly useful bullpen arm better than getting Reynolds. At least that relates to having a rubber bullpen arm and protecting young arms.

 

[Dback Jon]

Originally posted by schillingfan
I don't follow your logic here. How will getting another starting pitcher keep Webb, Good or Gonzalez from getting burnt out? If Reynolds takes the place of one of them, they won't get their arm burnt out, but neither will they get a chance to pitch!

The way young arms are protected is by effective bullpens. D-Backs seem to have more than enough bullpen arms with Mantei, Valverde, a returning Koplove, Villareal, Lyon (trade), Randolph and the aged Jesse Orosco, let alone Bruney simmering in Tucson. I could take Sparks as a possibly useful bullpen arm better than getting Reynolds. At least that relates to having a rubber bullpen arm and protecting young arms.

The point is that you don't want to rely on a total starting rotation of The Unit and a bunch of youngsters, who should not eat innings (for the long-term health of the Dbacks. Whether a Sparks or Reynolds is Long relief, spot starters, etc. I would like to have at least one more vet pitcher.

 

[KingLouieLouie]

Originally posted by schillingfan
I don't follow your logic here. How will getting another starting pitcher keep Webb, Good or Gonzalez from getting burnt out? If Reynolds takes the place of one of them, they won't get their arm burnt out, but neither will they get a chance to pitch!

The way young arms are protected is by effective bullpens. D-Backs seem to have more than enough bullpen arms with Mantei, Valverde, a returning Koplove, Villareal, Lyon (trade), Randolph and the aged Jesse Orosco, let alone Bruney simmering in Tucson. I could take Sparks as a possibly useful bullpen arm better than getting Reynolds. At least that relates to having a rubber bullpen arm and protecting young arms.

Dback Jon nailed it down completely.... I know some on here (I do to a certain extent) emphasize Billy Beane and his Sabermetrics school of thought, but in the process those who do believe in that principle overlooked tools and the psychological implications.....

The Dbacks bullpen is relatively sound, but with Koplove's and Mantei's history of injuries, it would have been too much to put a burden on them to relieve those youngsters and Dessens (who just should be regulated to a long-relief role himself), and there's still no guarantee that Johnson will revert back to his '02 form....

The one pitcher Im curious about is Shane Nance (who they got in the Sexson trade)...Does anyone have much background on him?

 

[schillingfan]

old, cheap and bad=bad
young, cheap and bad=potential to be better