Watson: Suns plan on playing all 3 guards (Bledsoe, Knight & Booker) at the same time

[SirStefan32]

I am not a Bledsoe fan, but he is a far better player than IT. I would take IT because of his contract and Bledsoe's injuries, but Bledsoe is the better player.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Simply not true.

Absolutely, completely, 100% agree. I would not trade Bledsoe for IT in a million years. I cannot believe that the idea of IT being better than Bledsoe is even being asserted.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I am not a Bledsoe fan, but he is a far better player than IT. I would take IT because of his contract and Bledsoe's injuries, but Bledsoe is the better player.

I agree. I like IT and was one of the few that never really wanted him traded. At the time I assumed it was because he'd insisted on it but after finding out later that he still wanted to stay, I've searched for a reason for that trade. But Bledsoe, when they both play, is the better player. I'd take IT for him straight up right now because of the knee problems but IT is a specialist, a 6th man that can occasionally start. His size will always be an issue.

 

[BC867]

I agree. I like IT and was one of the few that never really wanted him traded. At the time I assumed it was because he'd insisted on it but after finding out later that he still wanted to stay, I've searched for a reason for that trade. But Bledsoe, when they both play, is the better player. I'd take IT for him straight up right now because of the knee problems but IT is a specialist, a 6th man that can occasionally start. His size will always be an issue.

Are there not two questions here?

-- Is IT a better player than Bledsoe? If Bledsoe can stay healthy, no.

-- Is IT a better Point Guard (facilitator)? Absolutely.

Their value to a team depends upon the makeup of the rest of the team.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Are there not two questions here?

-- Is IT a better player than Bledsoe? If Bledsoe can stay healthy, no.

-- Is IT a better Point Guard (facilitator)? Absolutely.

Their value to a team depends upon the makeup of the rest of the team.

IT is not a better facilitator that Eric. He is a 5' 9" shoot first pg. He is, at best, Eric's equal in that category, and that's only because he cannot physically get off more shots, because if there is any shot that he CAN take, he WILL take it. IT is a better shooter. I will give you that.

The big difference is defense in which Eric is miles better.

I know these stats are skewed based upon team play, but IT has a lifetime offensive rating of 102 and a defensive rating of 114. Bledsoe is 115 for offense and 108 defense. That difference is huge.

 

[Phrazbit]

lol, now IT is a distributor? Funny stuff. Thomas is a better outside shooter, that is it. At basically everything else Bledsoe is either his equal or much superior.

What I find really funny is that many of the same people who are currently touting Thomas' prowess couldn't stand him when he was here and would almost certainly still despise him now if he was on the roster.

 

[sunsfan88]

I agree. I like IT and was one of the few that never really wanted him traded. At the time I assumed it was because he'd insisted on it but after finding out later that he still wanted to stay, I've searched for a reason for that trade. But Bledsoe, when they both play, is the better player. I'd take IT for him straight up right now because of the knee problems but IT is a specialist, a 6th man that can occasionally start. His size will always be an issue.

I think the Celtics are fine with him starting and despite him being the only legit offensive threat they have, he's led them to the 3rd seed in the East. I doubt IT goes back to the bench quite frankly. Not to mention he's an all star and may get All NBA accolades as well.

And durability is definitely a big thing to consider. I would probably take Greg Oden over many of the centers in the NBA today if he's healthy but that doesn't mean he's better than any of them because you are of no use if your on the bench.

 

[BC867]

What I find really funny is that many of the same people who are currently touting Thomas' prowess couldn't stand him when he was here and would almost certainly still despise him now if he was on the roster.

Because IT was part of the 3-lead Point Guard nonsense. It wasn't he who was disliked. It was how the Suns brass kept trying different combinations to justify their gimmick.

And, really, they were the biggest victims of the Sarver/McDonough/Hornacek novelty routine. Even more than the fans.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Because IT was part of the 3-lead Point Guard nonsense. It wasn't he who was disliked. It was how the Suns brass kept trying different combinations to justify their gimmick.

And, really, they were the biggest victims of the Sarver/McDonough/Hornacek novelty routine. Even more than the fans.

No, as a player, he was disliked here. IMMENSELY. Go back and read the threads from the first half of that season if you have any doubts. Not to say people were fond of the 3 guard idea or really, anything, about the Suns. But IT was routinely ripped to shreds for his style of play.

 

[sunsfan88]

If you believe that the Knight we've seen over the past year is the real Brandon Knight and that's all he'll ever be, it pretty much has to be everybody's position. He has been such a huge disappointment. But I think there's reason to believe he has much more to offer than he's shown so far.

I doubt it. He bounced around 3 different teams before his rookie contract even ended. That's pretty rare for a player who would have lot more to offer. He wasn't very well liked and the fans of his former teams rejoiced the day he was traded away and they still don't miss him.

Sure we can look at his short spurt from earlier this season and say "this is the real Brandon Knight" but it just wouldn't be accurate because Knight is a streaky player like that. He has a good stretch of good games then a stretch of very, very bad. Or it will be one good game and then another 2-3 games of bad. Even his "good" games are ones in which he takes terrible and very difficult shots.

He's been that way for his entire career. There is no consistency in his game.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Because IT was part of the 3-lead Point Guard nonsense. It wasn't he who was disliked. It was how the Suns brass kept trying different combinations to justify their gimmick.

And, really, they were the biggest victims of the Sarver/McDonough/Hornacek novelty routine. Even more than the fans.

BC. You keep trying to make players the victims and "brass" the villians. You ALWAYS do it, going to back to the Colangelo days.

 

[JCSunsfan]

BTW.

Can we stop talking about a 2 pg offense? We have no such thing. BK is not a pg. Bledsoe and Price are the only pg's on the roster. BK is a short fast sg that is a very streaky scorer. Booker is a long, smooth shooting sg that can run the point in a pinch.

 

[Covert Rain]

BTW.

Can we stop talking about a 2 pg offense? We have no such thing. BK is not a pg. Bledsoe and Price are the only pg's on the roster. BK is a short fast sg that is a very streaky scorer. Booker is a long, smooth shooting sg that can run the point in a pinch.

3 PG system or 2 PG system doesn't refer to a player's natural position. It just means 2 or 3 players running typical PG plays and "acting" as PGs depending on who has the ball as they run through the progression of initiated offensive plays. Most of the discussion above seems to be around the ability of those players to run PG related plays. At least that's how I am taking it.

 

[JCSunsfan]

3 PG system or 2 PG system doesn't refer to a player's natural position. It just means 2 or 3 players running typical PG plays and "acting" as PGs depending on who has the ball as they run through the progression of initiated offensive plays. Most of the discussion above seems to be around the ability of those players to run PG related plays. At least that's how I am taking it.

But that is not how we player either. When Goran and Bledsoe were on the floor together last year, it was clear that Bledsoe was the pg and Goran was the sg. EVERY NBA team's set of guard share duty bringing the ball up some. But there is a clear pg. We have played no differently.

 

[Covert Rain]

But that is not how we player either. When Goran and Bledsoe were on the floor together last year, it was clear that Bledsoe was the pg and Goran was the sg. EVERY NBA team's set of guard share duty bringing the ball up some. But there is a clear pg. We have played no differently.

Were we watching two different teams? I recall Goran plenty of times getting the ball on the opposite side of the floor and running traditional PG plays. It seemed to me the strategy was pass the ball around and whichever of them end up on the weak side initiated the play. It's just Bledsoe was more aggressive with the ball and it stayed in his hands more often.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Were we watching two different teams? I recall Goran plenty of times getting the ball on the opposite side of the floor and running traditional PG plays. It seemed to me the strategy was pass the ball around and whichever of them end up on the weak side initiated the play. It's just Bledsoe was more aggressive with the ball and it stayed in his hands more often.

There wasn't much of that last season but that is how they played the year before. Last season, Goran would get the ball on the sideline, usually see a clogged lane with no room to penetrate or make an entry pass, dribble for a few seconds, then pass it on to someone else on the perimeter. There were times when he still ran the offense but they were few and far between.

 

[JCSunsfan]

There wasn't much of that last season but that is how they played the year before. Last season, Goran would get the ball on the sideline, usually see a clogged lane with no room to penetrate or make an entry pass, dribble for a few seconds, then pass it on to someone else on the perimeter. There were times when he still ran the offense but they were few and far between.

That's what I remember. Eventually, it was Goran in the corner standing there with a pouting look on his face.

 

[Covert Rain]

There wasn't much of that last season but that is how they played the year before. Last season, Goran would get the ball on the sideline, usually see a clogged lane with no room to penetrate or make an entry pass, dribble for a few seconds, then pass it on to someone else on the perimeter. There were times when he still ran the offense but they were few and far between.

It was more successful the season before but it wasn't because they didn't try. As you stated, Goran faced more clogged lanes, the team didn't move without the ball well last season at times and he didn't appear to be as aggressive. I don't think the system changed as much as the execution fell off a cliff IMO for various reasons.

At any rate, my point was I don't think people were referring as much to what natural position a player plays verses talking about the implementation of a system that features multiple players playing guard. It seems to me the Suns blur the lines on offensive responsibilities if your playing a guard on this team. Either way, a 3 guard system is no solution IMO.

 

[BC867]

Ik

BC. You keep trying to make players the victims and "brass" the villians. You ALWAYS do it, going to back to the Colangelo days.

Having spent over thirty years in upper middle management within industry, and being held accountable for operations, I can indeed attest to where the responsibility for success or failure lies.

It is the "brass" who controls the budget, makes the rules, sets the tone and hires and maintains the people. The strongest union can balk, but they can't override the long- and short-term leadership of the brass.

Management plans the operation and chooses and motivates the players. And is responsible for reacting if the players are not motivated. It is not about, and is a lot more complex than, villians or victims.

P.S.: On a lighter note, I have to ask, does the JC in Sunsfan mean JC fan and Sunsfan? If so, I commend your loyalty to Mr. Colangelo. He put us on the map. But, as a GM, I, as a fan, feel he was limited.

P.P.S.: JC, after I posted this, I got around to reading Dan Bickley's article about how the Suns need to go for a marquee Head Coach, such as Jay Wright, following the marginal ones who have been hired for a long time.

He also was not too kind about Jerry Colangelo's approach over the years. He literally said what I have felt for decades. You may want to read it, just to get still another point of view.

http://www.azcentral.com/story/spor...hoenix-suns-need-coach-wright-stuff/82772816/

 

[JCSunsfan]

Ik
Having spent over thirty years in upper middle management within industry, and being held accountable for operations, I can indeed attest to where the responsibility for success or failure lies.

It is the "brass" who controls the budget, makes the rules, sets the tone and hires and maintains the people. The strongest union can balk, but they can't override the long- and short-term leadership of the brass.

Management plans the operation and chooses and motivates the players. And is responsible for reacting if the players are not motivated. It is not about, and is a lot more complex than, villians or victims.

P.S.: On a lighter note, I have to ask, does the JC in Sunsfan mean JC fan and Sunsfan? If so, I commend your loyalty to Mr. Colangelo. He put us on the map. But, as a GM, I, as a fan, feel he was limited.

P.P.S.: JC, after I posted this, I got around to reading Dan Bickley's article about how the Suns need to go for a marquee Head Coach, such as Jay Wright, following the marginal ones who have been hired for a long time.

He also was not too kind about Jerry Colangelo's approach over the years. He literally said what I have felt for decades. You may want to read it, just to get still another point of view.

http://www.azcentral.com/story/spor...hoenix-suns-need-coach-wright-stuff/82772816/

Yep. JC is about Colangelo. I am not particularly fan of Sarver. While McD has made some mistakes, I have been pleased with his performance so far. Every GM makes mistakes. Nothing wrong with noting real errors on the part of mgmt, but ignoring player issues is too one-sided. Colangelo made plenty of mistakes, usually in search of a big man so he could grab a championship. He tended to tinker with his roster too much. His biggest mistake was selling to Sarver.

My problem with your evaluations is that you presume motives that do not make sense. You also make statements that do not fit with the facts. IT was clearly disliked by many fans for his ball-hogging ways and for his unwillingness to come off the bench even though he was clearly told that would be his role when he was signed. Calling the Sarver/McD/Horny practice a "novelty routine" is not accurate. Plenty of successful teams have and are using two combo guards (Westbrook/Harden, KJ/Horny, Isiah Thomas/Dumars, even Curry/Thompson). Aside from that IT was a cheap signing as insurance in case the Bledsoe signing could not happen. Call it poor judgment if you like, but calling it a "novelty routine" which would indicate some sort of unusual side show act, just does not mesh with the facts.

And as for Bickley's article, while hiring an "experienced" head coach would be fine, I do not see how years of understudy as an assistant in the NBA is less of a qualification than having never been associated with the NBA at ALL but head coaching in college.

Its not about the experience, its about the type of experience. In recent times, very few head coaches have successfully made the transition from college to the NBA. To me, calling Hornacek inexperienced is silly. He had years of experience. Was Bruce Arians inexperienced because he had never been a full-time head coach before?

I am not saying Wright would be a bad coach, he might be fine. I am saying that experience was not the issue with Hornacek. In fact, Hornacek is probably still a darn good coach and will likely be successful at another stop along the way. He just inherited the mess that was the Morris twins and probably had no interest in tanking. If that's the case, so be it.

Done. Criticize my arguments based on my screen name if you like. But that is not really an argument.

 

[BC867]

Yep. JC is about Colangelo. I am not particularly fan of Sarver. While McD has made some mistakes, I have been pleased with his performance so far. Every GM makes mistakes. Nothing wrong with noting real errors on the part of mgmt, but ignoring player issues is too one-sided. Colangelo made plenty of mistakes, usually in search of a big man so he could grab a championship. He tended to tinker with his roster too much. His biggest mistake was selling to Sarver.

My problem with your evaluations is that you presume motives that do not make sense. You also make statements that do not fit with the facts. IT was clearly disliked by many fans for his ball-hogging ways and for his unwillingness to come off the bench even though he was clearly told that would be his role when he was signed. Calling the Sarver/McD/Horny practice a "novelty routine" is not accurate. Plenty of successful teams have and are using two combo guards (Westbrook/Harden, KJ/Horny, Isiah Thomas/Dumars, even Curry/Thompson). Aside from that IT was a cheap signing as insurance in case the Bledsoe signing could not happen. Call it poor judgment if you like, but calling it a "novelty routine" which would indicate some sort of unusual side show act, just does not mesh with the facts.

And as for Bickley's article, while hiring an "experienced" head coach would be fine, I do not see how years of understudy as an assistant in the NBA is less of a qualification than having never been associated with the NBA at ALL but head coaching in college.

Its not about the experience, its about the type of experience. In recent times, very few head coaches have successfully made the transition from college to the NBA. To me, calling Hornacek inexperienced is silly. He had years of experience. Was Bruce Arians inexperienced because he had never been a full-time head coach before?

I am not saying Wright would be a bad coach, he might be fine. I am saying that experience was not the issue with Hornacek. In fact, Hornacek is probably still a darn good coach and will likely be successful at another stop along the way. He just inherited the mess that was the Morris twins and probably had no interest in tanking. If that's the case, so be it.

Done. Criticize my arguments based on my screen name if you like. But that is not really an argument.

Points well taken. I appreciate your thorough response. I must disagree with your point about Jerry looking for a big man. A decade of Alvan Adams as our starting Center at 212 lbs. catered to coach John MacLeod protecting the status of his college Center rather than aiming for a Championship.

And to me, creating playing time for three combo Guards was a novelty. Just as covering for a lightweight Center put extra pressure on the rest of the lineup, so did three undersized Guards in my opinion.

With all due respect, I didn't intend to criticize your screen name. I asked if that is what the JC represented.

My BC867 represents my initials. Nope, not Bryan's.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Points well taken. I appreciate your thorough response. I must disagree with your point about Jerry looking for a big man. A decade of Alvan Adams as our starting Center at 212 lbs. catered to coach John MacLeod protecting the status of his college Center rather than aiming for a Championship.

And to me, creating playing time for three combo Guards was a novelty. Just as covering for a lightweight Center put extra pressure on the rest of the lineup, so did three undersized Guards in my opinion.

With all due respect, I didn't intend to criticize your screen name. I asked if that is what the JC represented.

My BC867 represents my initials. Nope, not Bryan's.

Wouldn't have thought that in a million years.

BTW. Adams was a very effective high post center for years. The league had lots of smaller centers in those days. Cowans was 6-9 220. The league evolved to bigger bulkier centers by the end of Adams career.

I think MacLeod wanted to win a championship more than "protect" Alvan Adams. See, that's what I am talking about. Assuming motives that don't make sense. Why would an NBA coach cover a supposedly inadequate player at the expense of a championship? I think MacLeod would have dumped anyone on his teams if he thought it would get him a championship. Colangelo too.

 

[BC867]

Why would an NBA coach cover a supposedly inadequate player at the expense of a championship? I think MacLeod would have dumped anyone on his teams if he thought it would get him a championship. Colangelo too.

Because at the time, the Suns were the only (major) game in town -- a small city before its growth spurt.

Jerry's approach (and results) made sense from a business point of view. As some of us said at the time, the philosophy seemed to be -- put on an entertaining show at home for the sake of revenue, don't embarrass yourself on the road and make an appearance in the playoffs.

Alvan Adams had the skinniest arms on the court. On offense, he stationed himself 18 feet from the basket, like a third Guard. During his decade, it forced our Power Forwards to be our de facto Center.

That is not the way to rise to the top. One legitimate and one Cinderella (or Sunderella, as the Suns recently billed it) NBA championship series in almost a half century attest to that.

Again, Jerry's approach made sense from a business point of view. A fan's point of view is not the same.

 

[BC867]

BTW. Adams was a very effective high post center for years. The league had lots of smaller centers in those days. Cowans was 6-9 220. The league evolved to bigger bulkier centers by the end of Adams career.

Yes, the average size of Centers became bigger after Adams' career.

But, even at the time, Adams was the lightest and weakest Center in the NBA. He was not in the middle of the pack. While Dave Cowans was the same height as Adams, Cowans was stronger and stronger in the post.

Bob McAdoo shot from the outside and won three scoring titles in a row (I didn't check his exact years), but his Buffalo Braves were never in contention. As the Suns, they were the only game in town.

It was either Niagara Falls or the Braves. Phoenix was either a trip to the Grand Canyon or the Suns back in the '70's and '80's. Conditions have changed -- for the Suns.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Yes, the average size of Centers became bigger after Adams' career.

But, even at the time, Adams was the lightest and weakest Center in the NBA. He was not in the middle of the pack. While Dave Cowans was the same height as Adams, Cowans was stronger and stronger in the post.

Bob McAdoo shot from the outside and won three scoring titles in a row (I didn't check his exact years), but his Buffalo Braves were never in contention. As the Suns, they were the only game in town.

It was either Niagara Falls or the Braves. Phoenix was either a trip to the Grand Canyon or the Suns back in the '70's and '80's. Conditions have changed -- for the Suns.

Bob McAdoo was 6-9, 210. Others were heavier. I am sure when they drafted Adams they thought he will fill out more. But he was an effective scorer, rebounder, and defender.

But even while Adams was here, they kept trying to go bigger. Truck Robinson, Maurice Lucas, Joe Barry Carroll, James Edwards, Rick Robey. They kept looking for that big enforcer type but could not keep them for long. I was back east in college and grad school for the early 80's so I missed alot of those years. Eastern newspapers rarely published late box scores, and then they were not there the next day. The Suns were hardly on TV in favor of the local teams and I was too poor to have cable.