We are not making the Plays - Whisenhunt

Duckjake

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All true...But Whiz should have fought to keep those players. Why let Boldin go? He was our heart and soul...If he would have been paid ...he would be the toughness this team needed. Why let Dansby go?? He should have been a huge priority....Rolle I can see but Pace, Dansby and Boldin all should be here....and if they were....we would be ALOT better. Boldin had that brass toughness that carried a long way. In fact...Dude missed like 1 or 2 games with a broken face!!! A Broken face!!! He came back. Players look up to that...players feed off that.

Long time viewers of this board have heard this from me before and few have ever agreed with me but I still think there is something in the Cardinals attitude toward the players or how they treat them in negotiations that makes guys want to leave town unless they are paid huge sums of money.

I'm really concerned about Rhodes play this season and that he has turned Cardinal. Mitch hit on this in another thread. Younger players learning from the older players that they can put out minimal effort and still pick up their paycheck.

Look at the key veterans that were on the SB team. Berry, Boldin, Dansby, and Warner. Those were guys that in my estimation wouldn't put up with players turning Cardinal and that's why we won in '08 and '09. For some reason Adub and Fitz haven't been able to do that.

The real question of course is where does this attitude generate.
 

conraddobler

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Long time viewers of this board have heard this from me before and few have ever agreed with me but I still think there is something in the Cardinals attitude toward the players or how they treat them in negotiations that makes guys want to leave town unless they are paid huge sums of money.

I'm really concerned about Rhodes play this season and that he has turned Cardinal. Mitch hit on this in another thread. Younger players learning from the older players that they can put out minimal effort and still pick up their paycheck.

Look at the key veterans that were on the SB team. Berry, Boldin, Dansby, and Warner. Those were guys that in my estimation wouldn't put up with players turning Cardinal and that's why we won in '08 and '09. For some reason Adub and Fitz haven't been able to do that.

The real question of course is where does this attitude generate.

Straight from the top, Bidwill is old school and the general idea is that if you show up and put in minimal required effort your contract will be honored.

They stuck up pretty hard for Matt and turned it into a full blown coaches mutiny IMO to get rid of him.

I didn't agree with that at all but you either tell the coach to F off once and for all or give in right the heck now, one of the two.

You don't go to war with your coach over that issue, you either do what he says or tell him no and why then move on and the issue is closed.

I attribute this to money issues and that old school view of honoring contracts.

The thing is cutting a guy is part of the game, sometimes you're going to draw a dud, when you do, toss him right the heck now and eat the money.

That's not how we do it, if they show up and don't get on TV for the wrong reason they get a check.

My huge problem witht the Matt fiasco was that it drug on this long, it's like getting your money's worth and then at the last second when the rubber hit the road dumping him in a huge catfight.

That was all backwards, dump him soon or run with him, don't alter dump him, it was stupid and telling.

Lastly this team would not exist under this ownership if not for the salary cap, that allows it to take money and waste it for decades, no business could ever spell out the evil pitfalls of socialism more aptly than the Cardinals do, if they were a legit business left on their own they'd have failed into annihilation decades ago and been taken over by more competent owners.

If you want to see socialism in action watch the Bengals and the football Cardinals.
 
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b8rtm8nn

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Too much authority, way too soon. The best thing the Cards can to do save Ken Whisenhunt is do what the Seahawks did with Mike Holmgren: take his personnel power away and hire a strong GM to shop for the groceries.

I couldn't agree more with this being the absolute BEST thing we can do right now - a new coach is a waste of time, firing Graves is a wate of time - we need a GM who can make the decisions that Whiz cannot:

1. Get a real OC
2. Get rid of Grimm if the OLine cannot perform OR get O-Linemen that fit the scheme and see if Grimm actually can coach
3. Stop bringing in staff who then bring in former players from Pittsburgh or Cleveland

Ideally, a GM fixes Graves (although I don't know what Graves does outside of paperwork and press conferences) and fixes the coaching LONG TERM. Because if we get rid of Whiz, who chooses the next coach right now?
 

Fiasco

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All true...But Whiz should have fought to keep those players. Why let Boldin go? He was our heart and soul...If he would have been paid ...he would be the toughness this team needed. Why let Dansby go?? He should have been a huge priority....Rolle I can see but Pace, Dansby and Boldin all should be here....and if they were....we would be ALOT better. Boldin had that brass toughness that carried a long way. In fact...Dude missed like 1 or 2 games with a broken face!!! A Broken face!!! He came back. Players look up to that...players feed off that.

He came back and had 9 receptions and 2 TD's

If I remember correctly didn't boldin get on the outs with whiz because whiz crossed the line into contract negotiations.

That grown assed man should have retired a cardinal. Fitzgerald is great but Boldin was electric.
 

kerouac9

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He came back and had 9 receptions and 2 TD's

If I remember correctly didn't boldin get on the outs with whiz because whiz crossed the line into contract negotiations.

That grown assed man should have retired a cardinal. Fitzgerald is great but Boldin was electric.

You're remembering his rookie season when he was playing against prevent defenses after the first five minutes of the game. Fitz was ALWAYS better than Boldin was.

Boldin's gone because he would've had to take less money than Larry to play here, and his ego was never going to allow him to do that. Once it was clear he was never going to get Fitz money, he started packing his bags and sulking after NFC Championship games.
 

Fiasco

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You're remembering his rookie season when he was playing against prevent defenses after the first five minutes of the game. Fitz was ALWAYS better than Boldin was.

Boldin's gone because he would've had to take less money than Larry to play here, and his ego was never going to allow him to do that. Once it was clear he was never going to get Fitz money, he started packing his bags and sulking after NFC Championship games.

He didn't come back after getting his face crushed weeks early and score two TD's his first game back?

Never said he was better than Fitzgerald, just that he was electric.

Letting Boldin walk was one of the worst moves in the last decade.

http://m.youtube.com/index?desktop_uri=/&gl=US#/watch?v=n0eWq2UZu88
 

Duckjake

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You're remembering his rookie season when he was playing against prevent defenses after the first five minutes of the game. Fitz was ALWAYS better than Boldin was.

Boldin's gone because he would've had to take less money than Larry to play here, and his ego was never going to allow him to do that. Once it was clear he was never going to get Fitz money, he started packing his bags and sulking after NFC Championship games.

The Cards had nothing else as a receiving threat yet Boldin had 1377 yards receiving his rookie year for a team that only had 5 games where they threw for 200 yards or more. A team that had Jeff Blake and Josh McCown at QB. What he did that year was amazing.
 

az1965

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Whiz is ok with OL performance and the OL getting beat here and there is ok since no OL can hold up for entire game... I guess that answers that question.

I wonder why opponents OL always hold up entire games with our defense completely locked up even on blitzes.
 

DeAnna

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O yea... he sure did... and I wanted to barf the minute the words crossed his lips.

LoL, I had the same reaction. C'mon Whis - everyone knows that system only worked with Kurt (and Todd Haley). None of the other QB's have been able to replicate what KW did.

Living on past glories .. :bigyawn:
 

DeAnna

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Fitz was ALWAYS better than Boldin was.

Sorry, I disagree. Plus, Boldin was never that concerned with his stats like Fitz is.

But I'm sure we can have huge debates here over which WR everyone prefers :)
 

Chopper0080

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I agree players aren't making plays, but at what point does the coaching staff take some responsibility for the lack of progression in correcting basic mistakes?
The inability of the team to fix problems is damning when you also consider questions on the team's ability to also develop talent. I just don't think the coaches have the ability to coach players up.

You blame the GM & coaches for the players, and you blame the players for the production on the field. I am just not convinced that our roster is that terrible which is why I blame the players.
 

Stout

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You blame the GM & coaches for the players, and you blame the players for the production on the field. I am just not convinced that our roster is that terrible which is why I blame the players.

Uh, what? Bad coaching will put players into position to fail rather than succeed, so why do you just blame the players?
 

Chopper0080

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Uh, what? Bad coaching will put players into position to fail rather than succeed, so why do you just blame the players?

Let me restate. You blame players for not making plays and coaches for not getting their players opportunities to make plays. So far this year, players have had opportunities and have just failed to capitalize on them.
 

Duckjake

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You blame the GM & coaches for the players, and you blame the players for the production on the field. I am just not convinced that our roster is that terrible which is why I blame the players.

I just can't comment this week because everyone who stepped on the field Sunday looked bad. The team is suffering from a general malaise. I wonder if there might be division in the locker room between former Steelers and the other players? Probably not but something is wrong.

I just hope the Vikings game wasn't simply the Cards checking it in.
 

Cheesebeef

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You blame the GM & coaches for the players, and you blame the players for the production on the field. I am just not convinced that our roster is that terrible which is why I blame the players.

I just don't understand how you think there's talent on this team... when the overwhelming majority of players on it have never shown any.
 

Buckybird

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Let me restate. You blame players for not making plays and coaches for not getting their players opportunities to make plays. So far this year, players have had opportunities and have just failed to capitalize on them.

I agree
 

Chopper0080

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I just don't understand how you think there's talent on this team... when the overwhelming majority of players on it have never shown any.

Fitzgerald - talented
Chris Wells - talented
Sendlein - talented
C Campbell - talented
D Dockett - talented
D Williams - talented
D Washington - talented
K Rhodes - talented
P Peterson - talented
LSH - talented
E Doucet - talented
Heap - talented
Toler - talented

We are as talented as most teams. Our players just pucker when the opportunity to make a play comes.
 

82CardsGrad

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I just don't understand how you think there's talent on this team... when the overwhelming majority of players on it have never shown any.


There's talent cheese... just not enough. Just to toss out a few names of those I beleive have demonstrated an ability to produce at more than acceptable levels:

- Fitz
- Doucet
- Heap
- Wells
- Sendlein
- Colledge
- Dockett
- Williams
- Campbell
- Carter (could be too early still, but I like what I've seen from him)
- Washington
- Lenon
- Jefferson (a stretch... prolly shouldn't be there I guess...)
- LSH

OK... less than I thought I guess... :bang:
 

82CardsGrad

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Fitzgerald - talented
Chris Wells - talented
Sendlein - talented
C Campbell - talented
D Dockett - talented
D Williams - talented
D Washington - talented
K Rhodes - talented
P Peterson - talented
LSH - talented
E Doucet - talented
Heap - talented
Toler - talented

We are as talented as most teams. Our players just pucker when the opportunity to make a play comes.

Too funny... see my post above. I went with guys who I believe have already "demonstrated" talent. PP has really only demonstrated his CB talents at the college level. Thus far, he's been putrid in the NFL... Rhodes? I can't say I've seen him demonstrate talent since he's been with us...
 

kerouac9

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Fitzgerald - talented
Chris Wells - talented
Sendlein - talented
C Campbell - talented
D Dockett - talented
D Williams - talented
D Washington - talented
K Rhodes - talented
P Peterson - talented
LSH - talented
E Doucet - talented
Heap - talented
Toler - talented

We are as talented as most teams. Our players just pucker when the opportunity to make a play comes.

Those are all guys that belong in the NFL, but aside from Fitzgerald and Dockett, none of them are in the top 15 players at their position in the NFL. Lyle Sendlein isn't among the top 20 players at his position. Todd Heap isn't among the top 30 players at his position in the NFL. Dan Williams is only allowed to play 20 snaps a game for some reason. Greg Toler is on IR.

We have some NFL talent, but we have a lot of guys who are just cashing paychecks. The problem is that we're not putting our players in a position to succeed (not as well as we did last season, I'd argue), but also that the players just aren't good enough to win in the NFL.

It's really, really, really hard to win in the NFL with a bad QB, no pass rushers, and no offensive tackles.
 

Mitch

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"We are not making plays"????

Whisenhunt is in la la land as usual---as he said last year lopsided losses are easier to take---so now he's gotten over the 15 minute pissed mode and come to the rational conclusion that "we are not making plays."

How about getting to the real issues---just for once?

How about this one: "We didn't show up for the game."

How about this one: "5-10 WR Percy Harvin---who showed what true leaders and professionals do in the midst of losing streaks---showed more toughness and will to win than our entire defense combined."

How about this one: "I think punting to start the 4th quarter in Vikings territory on a 4th and 5 down 28-0 was the prudent thing to do."

How about this one: "We still believe Levi Brown could handle Jared Allen one on one."

How about this one: "I still thought we could get the ball back with 1:21 left in the first half---even though the Vikings had just passed for two easy first downs---and had a couple of timeouts themselves---but I still thought it was wise to use our last timeout there."

How about this one: "I still like my decision to go with the hurry-up on 4th down last week and one timeout left with the game on the line---and a new QB in the system----he should have led Larry more---like I said, we are not making plays."

And by the way---how did you like the Republic's surreptitious way of creating a headline by saying "Whisenhunt Accepts The Blame." THEY asked him the question---it wasn't like Whisenhunt came forward like Andy Reid did and accepted the blame. This is akin to "leading the witness" and therefore I object, your Honor! Whisenhunt is not accepting the blame at all----he's already said that his system works---it's the players who are "not making the plays."

Well---3-13 in the last 16 games he's coached under his system---and in so many of those cases the players wanted NOTHING to do with legitimately trying to win the games---and that is the most plainly obvious common denominator in all of this.

How about this: "I am not doing what it takes to motivate and to prepare my players."
 

Darkside

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I don't even view it as Whis taking the blame. He took it with a caveat by saying his plays work, his formations work, and that his schemes took us to a Superbowl and that eventually they will work. Look, I've been a huge supporter of Whis, but these comments left a sour taste in my mouth. Perhaps our schemes worked in 2008, but this is 2011, and more than a handful of defenders over the past couple years have flat out said they knew the plays before we even hiked the ball. Those schemes don't work, obviously, we're 1-4 this year and 5-11 last year. If that's working I'd hate to see a complete failure.
 

Folster

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This team has talent it's just not being used effectively. For instance Dockett and Campbell two of our most talented defensive lineman are being used to "occupy blockers" so our less talented linebackers can try to make plays.
 

Chopper0080

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This team has talent it's just not being used effectively. For instance Dockett and Campbell two of our most talented defensive lineman are being used to "occupy blockers" so our less talented linebackers can try to make plays.

That is a scheme issue and you can't just change the entire scheme to fit 2 players.
 

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