Week 2 2022: Heroes and Goats

[kerouac9]

Couldn't you ask the same "what ifs" about VJ? You don't though, you only ask them about Kyler.

VJs defense won the game. What are you talking about?

 

[GoldGloveschmidt]

VJs defense won the game. What are you talking about?

A player jarring a ball lose resulted in the winning score. "VJ's defense" was being sliced through like butter until one player made a big hit. If you want to go there, Isaiah Simmons won the game.

 

[daves]

Tua Tagovailoa, Lamar Jackson, and the History of Shootouts

The Baltimore Ravens and Miami Dolphins put up crazy fantasy numbers on Sunday afternoon, but where does their duel rank among the best in Football Outsiders history?

www.footballoutsiders.com

Kyler was the 24th-ranked quarterback in Week 2 -- squeezed between Daniel Jones and Mitchell Trubisky.

... by Passer Rating, not QBR.

This is very misleading. At least 3 of those red zone incompletions were drops (Green x2, Hollywood x1).

This, too.

QBR is better than passer rating. To start with it at least tries to account for rushing contributions.

Yet you used Passer Rating to argue for your position that Kyler is a goat. Did his rushing TD and 2-point conversions not count in his favor?

Couldn't you ask the same "what ifs" about VJ? You don't though, you only ask them about Kyler.

VJs defense won the game. What are you talking about?

"What if Renfrow had held onto the ball?" "What if the ball had gone out of bounds?" "What if Murphy had thrown the ball away before crossing the goal line?" These questions are congruent with the what-ifs you asked to denigrate Murray's performance. How do you not see that?

...dave

 

[Paso Fino]

I wonder what the comments here would have been like if there wasn't a fumble recovery touchdown that saved the Cardinals from a game winning field goal by the Raiders.

 

[kerouac9]

... by Passer Rating, not QBR.

This, too.

Yet you used Passer Rating to argue for your position that Kyler is a goat. Did his rushing TD and 2-point conversions not count in his favor?




"What if Renfrow had held onto the ball?" "What if the ball had gone out of bounds?" "What if Murphy had thrown the ball away before crossing the goal line?" These questions are congruent with the what-ifs you asked to denigrate Murray's performance. How do you not see that?

...dave

I used DVOA.

 

[Jetstream Green]

I will say this, I sure the hell would want Kyler Murray over Daniel Jones or Mitchell Trubisky, and a slew of other starting QBs

 

[Jetstream Green]

I used DVOA.

K9, the only accurate handouts of heroes and goat would actually be Kyler being a goat and a hero... "Love and hate are horns on the same goat"- Norse proverb

 

[slanidrac16]

I think it’s worth mentioning when your team is down 20-0 the defense starts to give you the short stuff.
Kyler took advantage of that and got on a roll. The Raiders defense was unable to get their mojo back.
So one might say pressure Kyler early in the game and render him harmless.

Hey, great game Sunday, but this offense is going to have to start moving the ball against a pressure defense.

 

[GatorAZ]

K9 when he started this thread:
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[daves]

I used DVOA.

Oops - i stand corrected! Interestingly Murray WAS 25th (vs. 24th) and between Jones and Trubisky (within a few positions) based on passer rating, which is why i jumped to that conclusion.

He was also directly behind Tom Brady and a few spots ahead of Russel Wilson in passer rating.

He was also two spots behind Tom Brady and three spots ahead of Joe Burrow in DVOA.

So pointing out that he was "between Daniel Jones and Mitch Trubisky" to support your contention that Murray was a goat was accurate, but a bit disingenuous.

...dave

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

If Kyler doesn’t get bailed out by a holding penalty on the last drive, is this still a great game for him?

If the offense Peter’s out in overtime (a second time, because it already had once) is this a great game for him?

Kyler threw a bomb to Hollywood on 4th and 1 in overtime. If Vegas goes down the field and kicks a field goal, is it still a great game?

You’re better than playing make believe what if.

 

[SoonerLou]

@kerouac9 Lacks Bird City like resolve. Sorry buddy but you're getting removed from the Bird City members only jackets I've ordered. Start showing more Bird City like attributes and you're back on the list. I want you to think about your actions and how its costing you from being in the cool club.

 

[BullheadCardFan]

I think it’s worth mentioning when your team is down 20-0 the defense starts to give you the short stuff.
Kyler took advantage of that and got on a roll. The Raiders defense was unable to get their mojo back.
So one might say pressure Kyler early in the game and render him harmless.

Hey, great game Sunday, but this offense is going to have to start moving the ball against a pressure defense.

I was talking about this in the gameday thread

Raiders started playing soft and giving KM the middle of the field which allowed him to make some completions and get comfortable

Prevent defense prevents you from winning

 

[BritCard]

I think Kyler is a sub-par rhythm and timing QB. I think that he is that because of his struggles with pre-snap and post-snap reads. Our scheme is a rhythm and timing scheme. Almost every offensive passing game is. I am not sure how much he reads pre-snap and then confirms post-snap. I say this because there are times where he predetermines where he is going with the ball pre-snap and then delivers the ball to that player despite the defense reacting to it. That is why so many of our short passes are immediately tackled. He doesn't confirm the read post-snap and move on to the next option. He is essentially the Ron Burgandy of QBs in this regard.

Kyler is definitely more comfortable winging it because the longer DBs have to cover, the more space is created. Kyler's biggest issue with this is that his footwork can get away from him which leads to some accuracy issues. (this happens to many QBs) This is why in week 1 he threw a ball on the move to AJ Green and AJ had to leap to the side to catch it.

Also why he through a bad pick vs Vegas on the move.

 

[BritCard]

Then he should also get the credit for the 2nd half turnaround.

If I took a baseball bat to you and left you a bloody heap on the floor. But then cleaned you up, bandaged you, put your leg in a splint and dropped you off at Emergency. Which of the two things would be at the forefront of your mind?

 

[BritCard]

Yeah, I've been critical of KM a lot, but saying "Kyler" put his team in a first-half hole is whack.

The offense literally scored no points.

The defense while conceding 2 TD's also limited them on 2 drives to short FG's.

The defense conceded 1 score more than what would be considered par at half time. The offense scored zero.

 

[BritCard]

@Chopper0080 @kerouac9 are judging Kyler on his contract which is fair. Franchise QBs dont struggle vs mid defenses. And that doesnt inspire confidence vs the Rams.

I'd argue Kyler was worse vs the Chiefs in the 1st half than the Raiders. Max Crosby ended 2 of the 3 first half drives himself.

With that said a guy can be one of the heroes and still have concerns that his game has regressed.

Ram's defense has been gash already and they just lost Troy Hill.

Outside Ramsey they CB's will be Rochell and Long.

Marriota put 27 on them. That's the minimum Kyler should be putting up.

 

[BritCard]

Kyler also laced a 4th down pressure throw to Hollywood in overtime that would have put them in scoring position, which Hollywood dropped . It wasn't the easiest catch, but it is one a "star"receiver you gave up a first round pick for should secure.

I'm not trying to blindly defend Kyler here, but some of these arguments are missing key details that make them seem less than objective.

By "dropped" do you mean got steamrolled by a 200lb safety at full speed about 0.5 seconds after the ball hit his hands?

 

[BritCard]

If Kyler doesn’t get bailed out by a holding penalty on the last drive, is this still a great game for him?

If the offense Peter’s out in overtime (a second time, because it already had once) is this a great game for him?

Kyler threw a bomb to Hollywood on 4th and 1 in overtime. If Vegas goes down the field and kicks a field goal, is it still a great game?

He had a holding penalty on the previous scoring drive that bailed us out also.

He had the stupid shovel scoop that hit Eno in the face that was about an inch from being intercepted.

Hell, even on the game tying score we had 8 downs in the RZ before we scored. We had 4, was saved by the holding, got a whole new set of downs inside the 5, had 3 god awful plays before getting the score. And even then he had to run it in after 3 bad passing plays. Although granted one of them AJ Green had the ball knocked out.

Even when bringing us back there were more bad passing plays than good ones.

 

[BritCard]

Oops - i stand corrected! Interestingly Murray WAS 25th (vs. 24th) and between Jones and Trubisky (within a few positions) based on passer rating, which is why i jumped to that conclusion.

He was also directly behind Tom Brady and a few spots ahead of Russel Wilson in passer rating.

He was also two spots behind Tom Brady and three spots ahead of Joe Burrow in DVOA.

So pointing out that he was "between Daniel Jones and Mitch Trubisky" to support your contention that Murray was a goat was accurate, but a bit disingenuous.

...dave

But Tom Brady, Joe Burrow and Russ Wilson were all garbage in week 2.

 

[DVontel]

Ram's defense has been gash already and they just lost Troy Hill.

Outside Ramsey they CB's will be Rochell and Long.

Marriota put 27 on them. That's the minimum Kyler should be putting up.

Mariota put up 12. The other 15 came from a punt-block return TD, XPs, FG, & a safety.

You really don’t even try to do a little bit of research. Only just look at the box score. Jesus.

 

[Stout]

@Chopper0080 @kerouac9 are judging Kyler on his contract which is fair. Franchise QBs dont struggle vs mid defenses. And that doesnt inspire confidence vs the Rams.

I'd argue Kyler was worse vs the Chiefs in the 1st half than the Raiders. Max Crosby ended 2 of the 3 first half drives himself.

With that said a guy can be one of the heroes and still have concerns that his game has regressed.

KM was way worse vs the Chiefs vs the 1st half against the Raiders. He rarely didn't have 3 guys right in his face, and KK called a couple 3rd-and-long short throws. Not much KM could have done there except tell KK to eff off and ignore his plays. Sorry, I'm always hard on KM when called for. This isn't called for.

 

[DVontel]

By "dropped" do you mean got steamrolled by a 200lb safety at full speed about 0.5 seconds after the ball hit his hands?

You literally excusing why the guy that was traded for a 1st round pick dropped a crucial pass & not immediately tucking it in?

 

[Stout]

The offense literally scored no points.

The defense while conceding 2 TD's also limited them on 2 drives to short FG's.

The defense conceded 1 score more than what would be considered par at half time. The offense scored zero.

The defense was garbage in the 1st half. Don't try to sell that short. The offense live was garbage in the first half, with interior rush almost constantly in KM's face. KK called some really stupid short throws on 3rd-and-long. Short of defying his coach in the 1st half, I'm not sure what you're expecting out of KM.

This is me talking about KM. If I thought at all there was much to be done better by him in the 1st half, I'd be crucifying him over it. You know this.

 

[BritCard]

The defense was garbage in the 1st half. Don't try to sell that short. The offense live was garbage in the first half, with interior rush almost constantly in KM's face. KK called some really stupid short throws on 3rd-and-long. Short of defying his coach in the 1st half, I'm not sure what you're expecting out of KM.

This is me talking about KM. If I thought at all there was much to be done better by him in the 1st half, I'd be crucifying him over it. You know this.

As I said, the defense conceded maybe 6 points more than most fans would be comfortable with at half time. Had it been 14 zip, or even 17 zip then I don't think you would be saying the same thing.

It also ignores the fact that one of the reason they scored 20 was because they had so much of the ball, because our offense sucked.

I'm not sure where you're getting this O line stuff from. The only thread at all was Crosby. Chandler was owned all game and their interior did nothing. Not a single Raiders interior lineman recorded a pressure, hurry or knockdown.

In 49 passing attempts Kyler was pressured 4 times by Crosby and sacked once. 2 pressures from CJ. 6 total pressures outside those 2 all from blitzes. Sacked once on 49 drop backs.