Welcome Cam Johnson

[slinslin]

Brandon Clarke - did play and had the best summer league

no he did not

 

[Dr. Jones]

Booker is still 7 months younger than this cat. Oubre is younger also. And his medical isn't the cleanest either.

No sense in dressing up this pig. If he works out, great.

 

[Chaplin]

Booker is still 7 months younger than this cat. Oubre is younger also. And his medical isn't the cleanest either.

No sense in dressing up this pig. If he works out, great.

Please enlighten us how he is a “pig.” Is it simply because he was taken 6 spots earlier than the “experts” thought he should have been? And so what that he’s older than Booker? Why does that make any difference?

 

[SunnyBaller]

I was taking to someone today about Cam and he asked an interesting question: Which 11 players did you have on your board that were better than Cam? I’m not sure I could really answer that question. That leads me to believe that he actually wasn’t over-drafted.

I had actually watched videos on Cam before the draft and saw him in several games so I was familiar with him but I definitely had atleast 15 players above him , maybe not necessarily because of talent but because he was a wing which was a position we had full. I actually like Cam and I'm not upset on the reach considering after the top few it was a gamble, but that at that time they had gaping holes at PG and PF and Clarke checked most boxes that we needed. I do think if any other team but the sun's picked Cam at 11 there wouldn't have been as much criticism

 

[Yuma]

Please enlighten us how he is a “pig.” Is it simply because he was taken 6 spots earlier than the “experts” thought he should have been? And so what that he’s older than Booker? Why does that make any difference?

I agree. It's not like he's 30 years old. I would love to be his age.

 

[Chaplin]

I had actually watched videos on Cam before the draft and saw him in several games so I was familiar with him but I definitely had atleast 15 players above him , maybe not necessarily because of talent but because he was a wing which was a position we had full. I actually like Cam and I'm not upset on the reach considering after the top few it was a gamble, but that at that time they had gaping holes at PG and PF and Clarke checked most boxes that we needed. I do think if any other team but the sun's picked Cam at 11 there wouldn't have been as much criticism

Fair enough, but now that we don’t have a glut of wings, what do you think now?

When you’re talking about BPA, regardless of position, you think there are 15 BETTER players than him in this draft? I’m not talking better FITS, just better players period.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

So @Ouchie-Z-Clown and @Chaplin they had an interesting discussion on the radio today about when we drafted Booker. He was drafted 13, and by many post draft he was seen as a stretch. Heck most criticized the Suns because he was a reach, and he didn't even start on his team in college! That sounds remarkably like this discussion. No one had him as high as the Suns drafted Booker. Then they went through all the guys drafted ahead of Booker. Wow, were there some misses! We now have one of the players drafted ahead of Booker in Frank Kaminsky!

Assuming he shoots similar to his percentages in college, he has a chance to prove he is in the top 15 in this draft.

It is nothing like this discussion. Booker was 18 not 23. I was ecstatic when we picked him.

Johnson has maybe 2 years of growth and that is it. All at the risk that he may not even have a position he can reasonably guard in the NBA.

You can say with a decent amount of confidence that his ceiling is James Jones. His floor is Adam Morrison

 

[Chris_Sanders]

Fair enough, but now that we don’t have a glut of wings, what do you think now?

When you’re talking about BPA, regardless of position, you think there are 15 BETTER players than him in this draft? I’m not talking better FITS, just better players period.

Sure I will play along.

Zion Williamson
Ja Morant
RJ Barrett
D'Andre Hunter
Darius Garland
Coby White
Jarrett Culver
Brandon Clarke
Cam Reddish
PJ Washington
Jackson Hayes
Tyler Herro
Sekou Doumbouya
Chuma Okeke
Goga Bitadze
Ty Jerome
Nassir Little
KZ Okpala
Bol Bol

That's 19.

 

[Mainstreet]

It is nothing like this discussion. Booker was 18 not 23. I was ecstatic when we picked him.

Johnson has maybe 2 years of growth and that is it. All at the risk that he may not even have a position he can reasonably guard in the NBA.

You can say with a decent amount of confidence that his ceiling is James Jones. His floor is Adam Morrison

I suspect you are right about the James Jones comparison... a good shooter who can hit the spot up 3 pointer. Jones did have a 14 year career as a journeyman player.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/a/aytonde01.html

 

[Chris_Sanders]

This is precisely how Johnson is viewed

https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/carmelo/cameron-johnson/

He may dramatically outperform these expectations but it is hard to get excited here.

In my head, this is how I have convinced myself the draft is okay instead of a massive stumble.

#1. Swap where Jerome and Johnson were picked.
#2. Slot Lecque into our second round spot.

It's really like the Kelly Oubre trade where it worked out in the end for Jones despite all his efforts to the contrary.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

I suspect you are right about the James Jones comparison... a good shooter who can hit the spot up 3 pointer. Jones did have a 14 year career as a journeyman player.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/a/aytonde01.html

It's the sort of career I can see Johnson having. Being a limited minutes spot shooter who averages around 5 points a game for his career.

 

[Mainstreet]

It's the sort of career I can see Johnson having. Being a limited minutes spot shooter who averages around 5 points a game for his career.

I'm guessing James Jones did not have a lot of confidence in the draft early and was looking for a player who he thought was a sure thing. It is sort of like hedging a bet.

I try to tell myself this is not a bad thing after some of the McDonough drafts. However, I think Cam could have been drafted where Jerome was selected. I do like Jerome and had him on my radar later in the first round.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

It comes down to Saric imo. If he plays well and they can resign him then whatever Johnson gives is gravy.

 

[JCSunsfan]

I really did not have Cam on my draft radar at all. He was not a pg or pf, and he was not slotted to go in the top ten. But outside the top three, this draft was a total crap shoot. A late first rounder could be as good as the fourth pick.

It is clear what James Jones wanted to do. He drafted for need rather than the home run. He really did not want another rookie, so he took a mature player with by all accounts top notch shooting ability. The “best shooter in the draft” tag is not one that Suns fans made up. This is all about complementing Booker and Ayton. It is no longer about trying to find a third star. It was unreasonable to expect that from this draft anyway.

We can argue about it, but who knows if it will work or not.

 

[Mainstreet]

I really did not have Cam on my draft radar at all. He was not a pg or pf, and he was not slotted to go in the top ten. But outside the top three, this draft was a total crap shoot. A late first rounder could be as good as the fourth pick.

It is clear what James Jones wanted to do. He drafted for need rather than the home run. He really did not want another rookie, so he took a mature player with by all accounts top notch shooting ability. The “best shooter in the draft” tag is not one that Suns fans made up. This is all about complementing Booker and Ayton. It is no longer about trying to find a third star. It was unreasonable to expect that from this draft anyway.

We can argue about it, but who knows if it will work or not.

I think it's about getting value for the #6 pick even in a trade down. If Cam was selected later in the draft, we probably wouldn't be talking about it.

 

[Dr. Jones]

Please enlighten us how he is a “pig.” Is it simply because he was taken 6 spots earlier than the “experts” thought he should have been? And so what that he’s older than Booker? Why does that make any difference?

I agree. It's not like he's 30 years old. I would love to be his age.

I use the term only to describe the after-draft discourse regarding how good this guy could actually be. It's a mild turn-of-phrase.

He is more of a known quantity than an unknown at this point. A sweet-shooting, and un-athletic wing player who will have serious trouble creating his own shot while being destined to be a role player at best in the league. With an injury history that would make anyone wonder what type of stuff the front office was tripping on when they traded back and then took him 7 to 10 picks too early.

No sense trying to drink the kool-aid here. Especially since we had better PG options at our original spot than the one we chose to horribly overpay for the next 3 years.

We gave two wings away this offseason, then took a wing in the draft. A lesser one than the two we had.
We needed a PG and had the opportunity to draft one but instead overpaid a career middle of the road PG.

 

[Dr. Jones]

This is precisely how Johnson is viewed

https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/carmelo/cameron-johnson/

He may dramatically outperform these expectations but it is hard to get excited here.

In my head, this is how I have convinced myself the draft is okay instead of a massive stumble.

#1. Swap where Jerome and Johnson were picked.
#2. Slot Lecque into our second round spot.

It's really like the Kelly Oubre trade where it worked out in the end for Jones despite all his efforts to the contrary.

Good way to look at it. I agree.

 

[Chaplin]

Sure I will play along.

Zion Williamson
Ja Morant
RJ Barrett
D'Andre Hunter
Darius Garland
Coby White
Jarrett Culver
Brandon Clarke
Cam Reddish
PJ Washington
Jackson Hayes
Tyler Herro
Sekou Doumbouya
Chuma Okeke
Goga Bitadze
Ty Jerome
Nassir Little
KZ Okpala
Bol Bol

That's 19.

COMPLETELY disagree with most of that list. Come on Chris.

 

[Chaplin]

I use the term only to describe the after-draft discourse regarding how good this guy could actually be. It's a mild turn-of-phrase.

He is more of a known quantity than an unknown at this point. A sweet-shooting, and un-athletic wing player who will have serious trouble creating his own shot while being destined to be a role player at best in the league. With an injury history that would make anyone wonder what type of stuff the front office was tripping on when they traded back and then took him 7 to 10 picks too early.

No sense trying to drink the kool-aid here. Especially since we had better PG options at our original spot than the one we chose to horribly overpay for the next 3 years.

We gave two wings away this offseason, then took a wing in the draft. A lesser one than the two we had.
We needed a PG and had the opportunity to draft one but instead overpaid a career middle of the road PG.

What kool-aid is there to drink? He was the #11 pick in a crap draft. You guys are all acting like we passed on Michael Jordan to draft Sam Bowie. Ridiculous.

 

[Yuma]

I did see before the draft he was "the best shooter in the draft." I was not thinking we were going there based on Booker being our "shooter" I thought we had that box ticked off.

Not justifying this at all. IF James Jones prioritized shooting as a need for this team, and statistically we were a poor shooting team, then logically it makes sense to get the best shooter in the draft. This to me is a Spock pick. "If Captain, you seek better shooting, then pick the best shooter." Or Yoda, "Best shooter you pick should, if better shooting you seek."

 

[JCSunsfan]

I think it's about getting value for the #6 pick even in a trade down. If Cam was selected later in the draft, we probably wouldn't be talking about it.

If we had traded #6 for Saric and a pick in the late teens or twenties (I know Minnesota did not have a pick in that range, just a hypothetical) and taken Cam, I not sure people would have cared that much. To me, the key asset attained in the trade down is Saric. I know he only has a year left, but he is a RFA so he will be in our control. We traded down and got a starting pf that we KNOW is an NBA player. I am not sure there was anyone at #6 that was a guaranteed NBA player let alone an already proven starter (Philly, playoff team).

 

[Chris_Sanders]

COMPLETELY disagree with most of that list. Come on Chris.

Here are the consensus rankings..

SI - #24
Sporting News - #20
CBS Sports - #14
ESPN - #30
NBADraft.net - #37
The Ringer - #33
Bleacher Report - #26
Forbes - #27
FiveThirtyEight - #38
NBADraftRoom - #21
247Sports - #22

Average ranking 26.5.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Here are the consensus rankings..

SI - #24
Sporting News - #20
CBS Sports - #14
ESPN - #30
NBADraft.net - #37
The Ringer - #33
Bleacher Report - #26
Forbes - #27
FiveThirtyEight - #38
NBADraftRoom - #21
247Sports - #22

Average ranking 26.5.

I am convinced this is how McD rated his draft picks. Nice to know we did something different.

Where a player was drafted (or ranked by media) has nothing to do with his actual value, except that it impacts how much they are paid. Its just the media lemmings following each other. We ought to know that--Bender, Chriss, Len, Jackson etc have already taught us that harsh truth.

 

[Chaplin]

Here are the consensus rankings..

SI - #24
Sporting News - #20
CBS Sports - #14
ESPN - #30
NBADraft.net - #37
The Ringer - #33
Bleacher Report - #26
Forbes - #27
FiveThirtyEight - #38
NBADraftRoom - #21
247Sports - #22

Average ranking 26.5.

I don't care. That's the whole point. For most of those, figuring out who goes #9 - #25 is like picking names out of a hat. You obviously think this draft is much better than it actually is IMO.

Did you also check to see how far Brandon Clarke fell? He's the board's golden boy at this point.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

I don't care. That's the whole point. For most of those, figuring out who goes #9 - #25 is like picking names out of a hat. You obviously think this draft is much better than it actually is IMO.

Did you also check to see how far Brandon Clarke fell? He's the board's golden boy at this point.

You saw a lot more volatility in his rankings than with Johnson. The Ringer had him at 5. I obviously think highly of Clarke.

JC is correct that this is an entirely different way of doing things.

It wasn't just the media that scoffed at this pick but it was labelled the worst move of the off season by multiple NBA GMs. That is how little this draft pick is thought of.

Maybe everyone is wrong and James Jones is a genius.