Welcome Cam Johnson

[Mainstreet]

Kellan Olson writes a nice article on Cam Johnson at Arizona Sports that includes video.

https://arizonasports.com/story/2021384/suns-cam-johnson-filling-in-the-gaps-on-both-ends/

 

[JCSunsfan]

they really don't. he gets to decide in the end. if he has a good season... which we HOPE he does, in what everyone's calling a terrible FA market, he might get a contract bigger than we want to spend, even as an RFA. Or he could decide to go back and play overseas. And then if he's gone, we have very little to show for our trade unless Cam ends up being a much bigger difference maker than anyone projects him to be.

He is not going to go back and play overseas if he has a good year.

If the Suns have a chance at a big-time player around the trade deadline, he is quite valuable as an expiring OR as a player a team wants to keep.

I think the Suns believe he has a very good chance to be their guy at pf long term. But they have an escape clause if they want to use it. No one at #6 would have been a more likely candidate to be the long term answer at pf. And no, not Clarke. I doubt he would have fallen to where he did had he been considered a more likely possibility to be a starting pf in this league. Clarke's shooting is really suspect. It would not fit with Ayton.

Good grief. Saric has already started in 10 playoff games with a playoff average of 17 and 7 and 39% from three. I am not going to worry that he will be too good to keep.

 

[Cheesebeef]

He is not going to go back and play overseas if he has a good year.

If the Suns have a chance at a big-time player around the trade deadline, he is quite valuable as an expiring OR as a player a team wants to keep.

quite valuable as an expiring... making less than 4 million dollars a year? No. TJ is quite valuable if they're trying to get a big name player because he's a huge expiring. that's the type of contract that can move the needle in a trade.

I think the Suns believe he has a very good chance to be their guy at pf long term. But they have an escape clause if they want to use it. No one at #6 would have been a more likely candidate to be the long term answer at pf. And no, not Clarke. I doubt he would have fallen to where he did had he been considered a more likely possibility to be a starting pf in this league. Clarke's shooting is really suspect. It would not fit with Ayton.

you're talking about speculation in terms of FACT. And sorry, but the overwhelming majority of your speculation in recent years has been beyond suspect. So forgive me if you saying "no one at #6 would have been a more likely candidate at PF". And why just limit the 6th pick to PF? There was a gaping hole at PG as well.

Good grief. Saric has already started in 10 playoff games with a playoff average of 17 and 7 and 39% from three. I am not going to worry that he will be too good to keep.

Good grief is right. it ain't about worrying he'll be too good to keep. it's about the idea that there's literally no guarantee with him coming back... ah forget it.

you're right. no matter what happens it was a great trade! Just like signing Ariza "in his prime" (your words) was a great move and letting McD run the entire off-season last year was the right move because of "stability" (your words again).

JC hath declared it, so it shall be! better?

I don't know if it was a good trade or not, but seeing people make such declaratory statements that it DEF was the right move, just makes me shake my head.

 

[JCSunsfan]

quite valuable as an expiring... making less than 4 million dollars a year? No. TJ is quite valuable if they're trying to get a big name player because he's a huge expiring. that's the type of contract that can move the needle in a trade.



you're talking about speculation in terms of FACT. And sorry, but the overwhelming majority of your speculation in recent years has been beyond suspect. So forgive me if you saying "no one at #6 would have been a more likely candidate at PF". And why just limit the 6th pick to PF? There was a gaping hole at PG as well.



Good grief is right. it ain't about worrying he'll be too good to keep. it's about the idea that there's literally no guarantee with him coming back... ah forget it.

you're right. no matter what happens it was a great trade! Just like signing Ariza "in his prime" (your words) was a great move and letting McD run the entire off-season last year was the right move because of "stability" (your words again).

JC hath declared it, so it shall be! better?

I don't know if it was a good trade or not, but seeing people make such declaratory statements that it DEF was the right move, just makes me shake my head.

Yes. TJ is more valuable as an expiring.
I am not talking about speculation as fact, I am talking about Saric, IMO, as being a better bet than whoever the Suns might have taken at #6 in this draft. That is not fact, that is just a judgment call on likelihood.

I like Saric. It just seems to me that when people say that the Suns stretched for Cam at #11, they seem to forget that Saric was part of the deal.

 

[JCSunsfan]

quite valuable as an expiring... making less than 4 million dollars a year? No. TJ is quite valuable if they're trying to get a big name player because he's a huge expiring. that's the type of contract that can move the needle in a trade.



you're talking about speculation in terms of FACT. And sorry, but the overwhelming majority of your speculation in recent years has been beyond suspect. So forgive me if you saying "no one at #6 would have been a more likely candidate at PF". And why just limit the 6th pick to PF? There was a gaping hole at PG as well.



Good grief is right. it ain't about worrying he'll be too good to keep. it's about the idea that there's literally no guarantee with him coming back... ah forget it.

you're right. no matter what happens it was a great trade! Just like signing Ariza "in his prime" (your words) was a great move and letting McD run the entire off-season last year was the right move because of "stability" (your words again).

JC hath declared it, so it shall be! better?

I don't know if it was a good trade or not, but seeing people make such declaratory statements that it DEF was the right move, just makes me shake my head.

BTW. I just did a search of every post in which I used the word "prime". I said this ONCE here.
https://www.arizonasportsfans.com/f...nd-the-nba-thread.274406/page-34#post-3788859

And all I said was that I was excited that we had signed a FA who actually might be able to play minutes and was still in what should have been his productive years. I was much more excited about Ayton and Bridges, and I still am pretty encouraged by those two picks.

Even then, I was just agreeing with Ouchie's expectations for last season.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

So @Ouchie-Z-Clown and @Chaplin they had an interesting discussion on the radio today about when we drafted Booker. He was drafted 13, and by many post draft he was seen as a stretch. Heck most criticized the Suns because he was a reach, and he didn't even start on his team in college! That sounds remarkably like this discussion. No one had him as high as the Suns drafted Booker. Then they went through all the guys drafted ahead of Booker. Wow, were there some misses! We now have one of the players drafted ahead of Booker in Frank Kaminsky!

Assuming he shoots similar to his percentages in college, he has a chance to prove he is in the top 15 in this draft.

What?!? I believe the consensus was he was picked almost exactly where expected. I think he was slotted at our pick in most predraft mocks. I think whomever was talking in the radio has faulty memory. You’d have to show me all these “reach” comments.

And of course he has a chance to prove it. Every player does. No matter where they’re drafted. That’s not what we’re discussing.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

this is completely revisionist history by whoever had that convo on the radio. Most commended the pick.

https://www.brightsideofthesun.com/...ay-hangover-how-do-the-phoenix-suns-grade-out

The Suns got As and Bs on down the line with the Booker pick, with almost everyone from Chris Mannix at SI to Yahoo... to CBS... to Woj and Chad Ford saying it was a good pick, a couple of them saying he had Klay Thompson-type ability, literally NONE of them saying he was a reach or a stretch.

then, there's more from
https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2506389-2015-nba-draft-grades-full-team-by-team-report-cards

gave us a B+

and

https://valleyofthesuns.com/2015/06/25/phoenix-suns-2015-nba-draft-grades-devin-booker/

gave us a B+

Besides the fact that Booker was the youngest player ever drafted (I think) which means he had room to grow s a player as opposed to a 23 year old 5th year player.

The talk about Booker and Johnson as far as being a reach and limited ceiling couldn't be further from the truth.

Lol. Borg

 

[Raze]

I think it's more he's only had one really good year in his entire career (I guess that was his first year on the Jazz where he shot a career high 41.8% from 2 and 35% from 3), got dumped by his team who realized they needed a big upgrade at PG if they were ever going to really contend and he did next to nothing to help the Wolves win during his entire tenure there.

He's a journeyman starting PG. Now, that's A LOT better than the utter trash we've had there the last couple years, but big picture, I just don't think he excites people all that much.

I mean... are people supposed to get really excited by a guy who's on his third team at age 28, who's career averages are 11 pp., 7.7 assists, 4 rebounds, shooting 38% FG, 32% from 3? That's kinda as pedestrian as numbers get overall.

And while I'm not "excited" and think he's a band-aid, he should be able to help this team get out from under the complete and utter disgustingdom they've been mired in. Also hoping he rebounds at the same rate he did prior to this year. 4.5 boards a game isn't huge, but every little bit helps, especially getting that from the PG position.

The most interesting thing to me about his shooting is that he is a REALLY good FT shooter at 84% but the rest of his shooting is just abysmal for the majority of his career.

Excited? No. But was it a reasonable signing?

Consider:

Every off season players sign record breaking contracts. This one was no exception. Even after all the money was thrown around Rubio signed for the 21st highest average salary amongst PGs (*over the life of each contract. #17 if you just look at just this year. And 12 of those 21 are over $29M/yr.) That means he's paid like a bottom third starting PG. It isn't a stretch at all to say that Rubio is a bottom third starter. I mean he's an actual starting caliber PG and not a back up. So I don't see it as an over pay.

Also, only 5 of those 21 PGs' contracts will expire before his. So the length of his contract is pretty decent when compared to his peers.

I don't think there was a better option on the market per price tag. Russell and Rozier were massive overpays. Beverly would have been nice at the price, but he wasn't leaving LA. Joseph... ugh.

Bottom line is that I believe we got fair market value for Rubio and that we aren't hitched to a grotesque contract.

(I also believe Utah will have a bit of buyers remorse with Conley and his $32M contract. He's an upgrade over Rubio, but $15M/2yrs worth? I don't believe so.)

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I am convinced this is how McD rated his draft picks. Nice to know we did something different.

Where a player was drafted (or ranked by media) has nothing to do with his actual value, except that it impacts how much they are paid. Its just the media lemmings following each other. We ought to know that--Bender, Chriss, Len, Jackson etc have already taught us that harsh truth.

Hmm, I’d challenge. I’d bet that on average the top 10 players in every draft likely are better than the players drafted 10-20, than are drafted 20-30, etc. Now I’m not saying top 10 against the rest of the draft because the opportunity set is just so much greater. But I’d bet that top 10 players are typically better on average.

 

[Raze]

I suppose time will tell if Cam was actually a reach or not, but I know I don't see much value in arguing about what other unknown we should have taken in a weak draft class.

The one thing I am glad about in the Cam pick is that it shows conviction in getting the guy that you truly want and not simply taking the player that consensus says you should take to get the most value.

They likely could have gambled and moved back another 5-10 spots to get more value, but they either wanted Cam too badly to take that chance or teams just weren't chomping at the bit to move up to 11 for anyone that was still on the board. Either way I am glad that they got someone that they were apparently so high on and until I see it fail or succeed on the court I am not going to put much stock into whether the general consensus agreed with the pick or not.

I agree with much of your post. My small point of contention with the bold is that the label of a reach isn't determined years down the road. It's determined soon after a draft occurs.

A "reach" has been traditionally used to say he went much higher than mocks and the perceived Big Boards of each team, which are impossible to substantiate of course.

Said differently, a reach is "a player who could have been taken much later than where he was drafted". How good a player becomes shouldn't shed the "reach" label. The term usually just means a team lost perceived value on draft night.

If a team had planned to take Cam soon after us then it wouldn't be a reach. (Years back I remember when the Cardinals drafted Rodney Gunter many considered it a reach. That is until it was reported that KC called them and told them they were going to take him soon after. So in theory, the Cards got him at the optimal point.)

 

[AzStevenCal]

Excited? No. But was it a reasonable signing?

Consider:

Every off season players sign record breaking contracts. This one was no exception. Even after all the money was thrown around Rubio signed for the 21st highest average salary amongst PGs (*over the life of each contract. #17 if you just look at just this year. And 12 of those 21 are over $29M/yr.) That means he's paid like a bottom third starting PG. It isn't a stretch at all to say that Rubio is a bottom third starter. I mean he's an actual starting caliber PG and not a back up. So I don't see it as an over pay.

Also, only 5 of those 21 PGs' contracts will expire before his. So the length of his contract is pretty decent when compared to his peers.

I don't think there was a better option on the market per price tag. Russell and Rozier were massive overpays. Beverly would have been nice at the price, but he wasn't leaving LA. Joseph... ugh.

Bottom line is that I believe we got fair market value for Rubio and that we aren't hitched to a grotesque contract.

(I also believe Utah will have a bit of buyers remorse with Conley and his $32M contract. He's an upgrade over Rubio, but $15M/2yrs worth? I don't believe so.)

I can't disagree with any of this. Rubio was never my first choice but given the options, he is a nice pickup for us.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I don't care. That's the whole point. For most of those, figuring out who goes #9 - #25 is like picking names out of a hat. You obviously think this draft is much better than it actually is IMO.

Did you also check to see how far Brandon Clarke fell? He's the board's golden boy at this point.

Actually I don’t think many of us think this draft was better. What I think a lot of us think is that jones laid up instead of going for the green. Essentially he bought into it being a poor draft and wasn’t convinced in his talent identification skills and went safe. That’s my perspective. The bucks gm who took Giannis had conviction in his talent identification and went for it in spite of ridicule. Here jones essentially seemed to get daily double of going safe and getting ridiculed.

As for those posters who seemingly have kinda just written this draft off as crap - as someone (can’t remember who, sorry) has stated repeatedly, even in bad drafts there are gems. Great talent evaluators identify them and make out like bandits. Sorry if I want our gm to be a great talent evaluator instead of letting him off the hook by merely repeating “it’s a bad draft.” He’s paid to identify the gems, damnit. If he can’t he should lose his job. JMHO

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Maybe everyone is wrong and James Jones is a genius.

While I don’t expect this, man would that be fantastic

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

What's funny is that them's fightin' words, even with people that don't like Coby White!

Huh? I don’t think I’ve seen much clamoring for coby since the draft. But I have seen a lot of support for Rubio.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I think the Jazz HAD to dump him since Gobert and Favors are such a weird combo of non-shooters to have on the court in the modern NBA. That puts more pressure on other players to pick up the slack, and that really isn't Rubio's game.

But they got rid of favors.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Favors isn't on the team anymore and I'm pretty sure they knew that was going to be the case going into the off-season. I think they dumped him because they know he is what he is... an average at best PG, who's lack of shooting made him a bad fit next to their version of Booker and they knew that if they ever wanted to really challenge for the title, they needed to upgrade that position with a true floor-leader who's made deep runs in the playoffs, plays very good D and can shoot, score and create for others.

Doh! Borg twice today

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

.

I like Saric. It just seems to me that when people say that the Suns stretched for Cam at #11, they seem to forget that Saric was part of the deal.

What are you talking about? They wouldn’t have lost saric if they drafted someone other than cam. Saric wasn’t part of the deal in drafting cam. They already had saric as part of the deal before they selected cam. Cams selection is completely independent of saric acquisition. Now if people are complaining about trading down from 6 to just get cam you’re right. But that’s not what’s being discussed.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

BTW. I just did a search of every post in which I used the word "prime". I said this ONCE here.
https://www.arizonasportsfans.com/f...nd-the-nba-thread.274406/page-34#post-3788859

And all I said was that I was excited that we had signed a FA who actually might be able to play minutes and was still in what should have been his productive years. I was much more excited about Ayton and Bridges, and I still am pretty encouraged by those two picks.

Even then, I was just agreeing with Ouchie's expectations for last season.

Lol. I was an idiot.

 

[Chaplin]

Word is, Jones wanted him pretty bad, but he thought he would be gone by 17. He traded back as far as he could and guess what? He got a starting Power Forward at the same time!

 

[Chaplin]

What are you talking about? They wouldn’t have lost saric if they drafted someone other than cam. Saric wasn’t part of the deal in drafting cam. They already had saric as part of the deal before they selected cam. Cams selection is completely independent of saric acquisition. Now if people are complaining about trading down from 6 to just get cam you’re right. But that’s not what’s being discussed.

This is like the Oubre trade all over again. You are trying pretty hard to make Jones look like an idiot and I’m having difficulty figuring out why.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Word is, Jones wanted him pretty bad, but he thought he would be gone by 17. He traded back as far as he could and guess what? He got a starting Power Forward at the same time!

I can’t fault jones for doing what he needed to do to ensure he got the guy he wanted. But I’m skeptical regarding his talent evaluation. For me I’ll just have to see what cams got over the next few years.

 

[Cheesebeef]

This is like the Oubre trade all over again. You are trying pretty hard to make Jones look like an idiot and I’m having difficulty figuring out why.

Jeez... I hate when this crap happens. Maybe you're having trouble figuring out why we're trying pretty hard to make Jones look like an idiot because... wait for it... WE'RE NOT TRYING TO MAKE JONES LOOK LIKE AN IDIOT.

this is LITERALLY what I said regarding the trade/pick:

"I don't know if it was a good trade or not, but seeing people make such declaratory statements that it DEF was the right move, just makes me shake my head."

Questioning and move and waiting and seeing isn't trying hard to make Jones look like an idiot.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

I agree with much of your post. My small point of contention with the bold is that the label of a reach isn't determined years down the road. It's determined soon after a draft occurs.

A "reach" has been traditionally used to say he went much higher than mocks and the perceived Big Boards of each team, which are impossible to substantiate of course.

Said differently, a reach is "a player who could have been taken much later than where he was drafted". How good a player becomes shouldn't shed the "reach" label. The term usually just means a team lost perceived value on draft night.

If a team had planned to take Cam soon after us then it wouldn't be a reach. (Years back I remember when the Cardinals drafted Rodney Gunter many considered it a reach. That is until it was reported that KC called them and told them they were going to take him soon after. So in theory, the Cards got him at the optimal point.)

I mean, there is no official ranking for where a prospect should go. All there is are guesses by the media experts and mock draft sites. If Cam ends up panning out I don't think you will see much mention to the idea that he was a reach only that Jones was a genius for seeing what others didn't.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

This is like the Oubre trade all over again. You are trying pretty hard to make Jones look like an idiot and I’m having difficulty figuring out why.

I’m not trying to make jones look like an idiot. I’m discussing his moves. But thx for attacking me personally instead of talking about the topic.

 

[Chaplin]

I’m not trying to make jones look like an idiot. I’m discussing his moves. But thx for attacking me personally instead of talking about the topic.

Apologies for attacking you.