Were we that close?

[chickenhead]

Luck would have been the Jazz upsetting the Lakers. Getting to the conference finals and losing to the Lakers in 6 games is not luck.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Watch the shot again, Artest HIMSELF said he just threw it up behind his head. And did I mention anywhere that JRich's bank shot wasn't lucky? In-game heroics are much different.

I've seen the shot and in no way did he throw it behind his head. He got the ball, turned and shot. Dude's a lunatic who makes no sense with whatever he ever says, be it good or bad for himself.

or are you telling me he shot the ball like Sampson did up and over his head?

 

[Mainstreet]

or Barkley's catch off the backboard, falling sideway shot against the Blazers in 1993

If I recall correctly this was the pass Oliver Miler threw off the backboard that Barkley was able to put the ball in the basket in near the same motion.

I don't consider this play as luck because it was a well planned and executed play with a difficulty level of 10... being the hardest. It was a perfect play. Oliver Miller was an excellent passer as you may recall. He threw the ball in from halfcourt off the backboard at the right angle and Barkley was able to gather it on the short hop and put it in the basket. IMO, if you call the play and it works it is not luck although the difficulty was the most extreme I can remember.

 

[Cheesebeef]

If I recall correctly this was the pass Oliver Miler threw off the backboard that Barkley was able to put the ball in the basket in near the same motion.

I don't consider this play as luck because it was a well planned and executed play with a difficulty level of 10... being the hardest. It was a perfect play. Oliver Miller was an excellent passer as you may recall. He threw the ball in from halfcourt off the backboard at the right angle and Barkley was able to gather it on the short hop and put it in the basket. IMO, if you call the play and it works it is not luck although the difficulty was the most extreme I can remember.

you remember it wrong. There was supposed to be someone up there to catch the inbound and put it in, they got snuffed out and Barkley caught the ball and while practically falling down, he threw up a prayer that banked in from like 15 feet.

 

[jibikao]

Who would have thought Kobe shot an air-ball? That wasn't planned!

 

[Covert Rain]

Yes, this was close. Normally, I don't consider a 4-2 series win by another team close. When someone beats you 4 times and you only beat then twice that is not close to me. However, considering one of those games came down to the wire and Artest being lucky enough to be the recipient of a very rare Kobe air ball.....this series could have been 3-2 heading back to Phoenix. Having said that, I still think the Lakers still win the last two games and take the series but there was an outside shot the Suns could have taken one. It doesn't get much closer then that.

Also what is with this luck crap? I don't think the Suns were lucky to get Portland who despite the injuries everyone said the Suns were going to have problems with their size. I don't consider getting a team who has been your nemesis and holds just about every mental edge there is on you...lucky. Then for icing on the cake you get to play the defending champs.

The Suns deserved to be in the WCF and luck had very little to do with it. Unlike the D'Antoni teams, this team scrapped and fought like I have not seen out of a Suns team in ages. When your scrappy, undersized and still punch back....that is not luck.

I could see the Suns making it deep into the playoffs again if this team stays in tact. What I don't see is us every getting over the Lakers as long as they are. They are simply a better team. I don't see a point in the Suns standing pat if your goal is to win a title. All titles go through the Lakers until proven otherwise. If you don't make moves to get better then them, then blow it up for a future run.

 

[Mainstreet]

you remember it wrong. There was supposed to be someone up there to catch the inbound and put it in, they got snuffed out and Barkley caught the ball and while practically falling down, he threw up a prayer that banked in from like 15 feet.

Ced Ceballos was involved in the play at least as a decoy or the first option.

Attached is a description of the play. Here is a quote from SI Mobile.

The most memorable timeouts are the ones that produce plays no one has ever seen before. Paul Westphal coached the Suns in 1993, and when they were down by one with 0.6 seconds left in an April game in Portland, he came up with the cockamamie idea to have center Oliver Miller throw an in-bounds pass from half-court off the backboard, Cedric Ceballos leap toward the glass but let the ball sail over his fingertips, and Charles Barkley gather it on the short-hop and bank it in at the buzzer. The play worked, with one wrinkle. "Our guys ran around afterward like lovers in a deodorant commercial," Westphal said, and point guard Kevin Johnson injured his knee in the celebration.

http://m.si.com/news/sp/wr_nba_spor...ionid=0465D7A339F5DC684BD2C60CD553DDBA.cnnsi2

 

[jibikao]

Yes, this was close. Normally, I don't consider a 4-2 series win by another team close. When someone beats you 4 times and you only beat then twice that is not close to me. However, considering one of those games came down to the wire and Artest being lucky enough to be the recipient of a very rare Kobe air ball.....this series could have been 3-2 heading back to Phoenix. Having said that, I still think the Lakers still win the last two games and take the series but there was an outside shot the Suns could have taken one. It doesn't get much closer then that.

Also what is with this luck crap? I don't think the Suns were lucky to get Portland who despite the injuries everyone said the Suns were going to have problems with their size. I don't consider getting a team who has been your nemesis and holds just about every mental edge their is on you...lucky. Then for icing on the cake you get to play the defending champs.

The Suns deserved to be in the WCF and luck had very little to do with it. Unlike the D'Antoni teams, this team scrapped and fought like I have not seen out of a Suns team in ages. When your scrappy, undersized and still punch back....that is not luck.

I could see the Suns making it deep into the playoffs again if this team stays in tact. What I don't see is us every getting over the Lakers as long as they are. They are simply a better team. I don't see a point in the Suns standing pat if your goal is to win a title. All titles go through the Lakers until proven otherwise. If you don't make moves to get better then them, then blow it up for a future run.

Yeah I agree. Besides Lakers, I can't see us not beating any other Western teams the way we've been playing. Denver is no match for us at our home and Jazz isn't a very good away-team either. Portland, believe it or not, was just as HOT as Suns were after all-star.

The more I think about it, the more I think it's not Luck. We beat Spurs 4-0!!!!!!!! Luck??? I thought for sure we would lose to Spurs again after they beat Mavs. Spurs were thought as the most "dangerous #7 seed". Any of you thought we would sweep them? I know I didn't. It wasn't luck. We didn't beat Spurs in game 6 or 7 with a shot like Artest's put-back. We beat Spurs CONVINCINGLY. Both Manu and Duncan were so depressed after game 3 loss (Goran rocks by the way!!!).

That Spurs series is one of the best series for Suns IMO. Game 3 performance from Dragic (almost Jordan-like in the 4th quarter) and then Game 4 Nash's one-eye close-out performance.

 

[pokerface]

How "close" can the Suns be when they have a powerforward that grabs four boards a game and has shaky defense...

 

[BC867]

we definitely weren't lucky with Robin's injury, but I don't think losing an up and coming, yet still inconsistent C is equitable with losing one of the best players in the game/leader of the team ...

Robin's injury didn't just lose us a 2nd year Center. It lost us a dominant Power Forward.

Because when Frye is on the floor, Amar'e is our Center and our Power Forward, while Frye is playing 2-guard.

How "close" can the Suns be when they have a powerforward that grabs four boards a game and has shaky defense...

And that's the result of it.

 

[jandaman]

Look, the OP has a point.

Some reasons on why I think so.
- As mentioned, the West is stacked with very good teams. The Suns are approximately in that second tier of teams behind the Lakers.

- Suns biggest advantage over other teams in that tier, is the improvement of the bench. The improvement of the bench is so dramatic that in addition of some "bad" fortunes to other teams, the Suns made it to the WCF. And again against the top tier team, that bench play and determination was almost enough to over come talent, but in the end the Lakers showed they were simply a tier above.


- For next season, I feel that the improvements of the bench will not be as big of a factor. I feel that Thunder, Blazers, Grizzlies, Nuggets will all get better. I feel the Suns will stagnate, even slightly degrade from this season.

- Some players who were critical to the Suns this season are also all having other influences. Frye is looking for a new contract, I believe a longer contract will somehow make him "stagnate" or be complacent. Amundson will leave if not same with Frye, as he will be complacent.

- Nash and Hill wll be a year older.

- Stoudemire's heart isn't with the Suns, in fact, once he gets his contract, will it affect his efforts?


I feel that the Suns, is still a playoff team. But this season felt like, everything went "good" for the Suns that it was there best chance to go to the Finals. I feel that next season the key players will not be as good as they are.
Clark looks intriguing, I believe in him, as I did with Dragic and Lopez. But heck, we're not talking 2nd year Lebron James here. Best case scenario is Clark gets 15-20 minutes a game and put up 8 points and 4 rebounds.
Of course I love to be proven wrong....


The question is, should the Suns further delay the inevitable of re-building? or hope for "luck" to be on their side again next season?

Lakers, Magic, Nuggets, Thunder, Blazers etc, those teams are either staying the same "power rating" or on their way up.... Suns, is declining.... as Suns key players are in fact 35+.

 

[cly2tw]

Look, the OP has a point.

Some reasons on why I think so.
- As mentioned, the West is stacked with very good teams. The Suns are approximately in that second tier of teams behind the Lakers.

- Suns biggest advantage over other teams in that tier, is the improvement of the bench. The improvement of the bench is so dramatic that in addition of some "bad" fortunes to other teams, the Suns made it to the WCF. And again against the top tier team, that bench play and determination was almost enough to over come talent, but in the end the Lakers showed they were simply a tier above.


- For next season, I feel that the improvements of the bench will not be as big of a factor. I feel that Thunder, Blazers, Grizzlies, Nuggets will all get better. I feel the Suns will stagnate, even slightly degrade from this season.

- Some players who were critical to the Suns this season are also all having other influences. Frye is looking for a new contract, I believe a longer contract will somehow make him "stagnate" or be complacent. Amundson will leave if not same with Frye, as he will be complacent.

- Nash and Hill wll be a year older.

- Stoudemire's heart isn't with the Suns, in fact, once he gets his contract, will it affect his efforts?


I feel that the Suns, is still a playoff team. But this season felt like, everything went "good" for the Suns that it was there best chance to go to the Finals. I feel that next season the key players will not be as good as they are.
Clark looks intriguing, I believe in him, as I did with Dragic and Lopez. But heck, we're not talking 2nd year Lebron James here. Best case scenario is Clark gets 15-20 minutes a game and put up 8 points and 4 rebounds.
Of course I love to be proven wrong....


The question is, should the Suns further delay the inevitable of re-building? or hope for "luck" to be on their side again next season?

Lakers, Magic, Nuggets, Thunder, Blazers etc, those teams are either staying the same "power rating" or on their way up.... Suns, is declining.... as Suns key players are in fact 35+.

Bench production is just part of the Suns great mantra this season, chemistry + resourceful.

As I put in other posts, the strength and weakness of the Suns has been that they have been constantly re-inventing itself over the course of the season till the end of WCF. Its success implies that our talent and effect of chemistry goes much deeper than people could imagine. But those resources like falling back to zone etc. are some kind of gimmcry, without us having enough experience and practice to really perfect anything.

With the core back, maybe without Frye and LB, the chemistry should be still there. With a season of consistent working on those resources, we should be much better next season. For instance, we should work on Amare iso a lot more, like West, Jefferson, Randolf, to prepare for the inevitablity like in game 6 that we had to rely on his isos for wins. How many times did we do such things in the past season? How many times did we do that his whole career long here?

On defense, Frye leaving might be another blessing in disguise. Let's get JOneal and have true centers on C full time and try to stick to man defense.

 

[Snik]

Speaking as someone who has been a Spurs fan since the 70's I can tell you that there is always at least some luck involved, but it really comes down to mental toughness, and being able to grind out games where you aren't shooting that well, but can still win on stops. Team defense wins championships. Offensive firepower can get you fairly deep into the playoffs, but to win 16 games against the best of the league is all about being able to stop the other team during those inevitable stretches where you can't seem to buy a basket. We've had the luxury of having two of the best to ever play the game for two of our championships (David Robinson and Tim Duncan), and a combination of one of the best (Tim Duncan), and a group of players around him that just played well together, and had faith in each other that somebody always had their back in defensive situations. Plus, a system that everyone on the team bought into 100%.

I think you guys are pretty close, but I don't know your team well enough to know just what little piece or pieces might still be missing, if any. Your defense has to improve though. That may just take another year of concentrating on it more, or it may take a piece or two along with that. Steve Kerr is a smart guy though, and I think he'll make whatever moves are needed, if he can.

I think OKC is going to be a force to recon with in the years to come. They are young, fast, and talented. Our older players are going to have a hard time keeping up with them next year, and beyond. If they can keep that group together they may be the team to beat, if not next year, then certainly the one after.