What a Hard Draft to Evaluate

[BritCard]

I don't know one way or another about the player's in-game agility, but the short shuttle and 3 cone have nothing to do with actually playing football.

They don't. They do have to do with him being agile though. If you look at Gaines draft write ups they almost all include words to the effect of "Gaines is an athletic and agile offensive lineman who will excel in a zone running scheme" (this was taken from an actual profile).

I'm not sure there is any such thing as separate in game agility, is not like you just turn it off for a game but turn it on for the combine. But either way his tape his full of his athleticism and agility. What it isn't full of is sound technique. His feet are fine, his hands are not. But that's why he's in the 4th round.

 

[Stout]

They don't. They do have to do with him being agile though. If you look at Gaines draft write ups they almost all include words to the effect of "Gaines is an athletic and agile offensive lineman who will excel in a zone running scheme" (this was taken from an actual profile).

I'm not sure there is any such thing as separate in game agility, is not like you just turn it off for a game but turn it on for the combine. But either way his tape his full of his athleticism and agility. What it isn't full of is sound technique. His feet are fine, his hands are not. But that's why he's in the 4th round.

I am 100 percent certain that they are different. Someone can show out as fairly agile in shorts, but put pads on them and commence hitting, and they are less agile to one extent or another. It's a whole different ball game, so to speak.

 

[BritCard]

I am 100 percent certain that they are different. Someone can show out as fairly agile in shorts, but put pads on them and commence hitting, and they are less agile to one extent or another. It's a whole different ball game, so to speak.

Ok let's put that to one side and say it's a thing.

Every expert opinion you read about Gaines. Every draft profile, list of pros and cons etc mentions his athleticism and agility on film. Testing numbers aside it's evident on his tape.

It's the most evident thing about his film, ain't nobody drafting him for his technique.

 

[Stout]

Ok let's put that to one side and say it's a thing.

Every expert opinion you read about Gaines. Every draft profile, list of pros and cons etc mentions his athleticism and agility on film. Testing numbers aside it's evident on his tape.

It's the most evident thing about his film, ain't nobody drafting him for his technique.

Like I said, I wasn't commenting on the player, just the idea that drills in shorts are accurate predictors of football agility. They aren't close to accurate parallels.

 

[CardNots]

None of these measurements capture the intangible of greatness, love for the game.

 

[Garthshort]

We'll see how the picks pan out, but one thing is certain, MO knows his way around a draft board. I'm still not sure if the scouts on the team are new guys or carryover from the SK regime. For me, while 2023 will be a down year, I think the team is trending up. Our GM passed his first test and now let's see how our HC will do.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Like I said, I wasn't commenting on the player, just the idea that drills in shorts are accurate predictors of football agility. They aren't close to accurate parallels.

I just watched two full games of Jon Gaines and he is plenty agile. He has some technique issues, but the tools are there.

 

[Stout]

I just watched two full games of Jon Gaines and he is plenty agile. He has some technique issues, but the tools are there.

lol I'll repeat most of my last post with emphasis: "Like I said, I wasn't commenting on the player, just the idea that drills in shorts are accurate predictors of football agility.

 

[BurqueCardFan]

Lots!

Name a few.

I'm more of a BPA type guy but lots of people were pimping the center position.
In round 2 we choose Ojulari (who I don't hate) but a guy like Keion White was more highly rated, along with centers like Tippman & Schmitz being available. Could of also taken a flyer on a RB like Charbonnet that Seattle ended up taking.
In round 3, Jalin Hyatt & Tillman went the picks after us. I would have much rather taken a flyer on one of them versus a CB coming off an ACL injury. I would have also taken a flyer on the big Georgia TE Washington. At the back end of round 3, guys like Ika were still available when we picked Wilson.
The later rounds, I don't know much about the guys we selected but lots of the same. Seems to be more highly rated guys available. Only time will tell.

 

[Krangodnzr]

lol I'll repeat most of my last post with emphasis: "Like I said, I wasn't commenting on the player, just the idea that drills in shorts are accurate predictors of football agility.

But those drills literally ARE predictors of success. For linemen 40 times don't matter and bench press actually doesn't matter much either (unless woefully deficient).

I was reading an article the other day about the high rate of success of OL who have great 3 cones and short shuttles. It's a significant rate, like 65%. That means you take those guys later in the draft and you find a starter.

 

[Krangodnzr]

I'm more of a BPA type guy but lots of people were pimping the center position.
In round 2 we choose Ojulari (who I don't hate) but a guy like Keion White was more highly rated, along with centers like Tippman & Schmitz being available.

Schmitz yeah, but most people ranked Tippmann as a third rounder. I absolutely would not have liked taking Tippmann at 41, he has significant issues with his game right now that need to be fixed immediately. His hand placement is scary bad, but the rest of his tools are pretty good. Tippmann is going to be that center right now who gets walked back to the QB on a down-to-down basis if he doesn't fix his issues.

Could of also taken a flyer on a RB like Charbonnet that Seattle ended up taking.

I like Charbonet, but dude has no wiggle and was a fairly odd draft pick by Seattle.

In round 3, Jalin Hyatt & Tillman went the picks after us.

Hyatt is going to be terrible man. The more I watched, the less I liked. He runs like two routes and faced only like 10 snaps of man press all year and he failed miserably.

Tillman was ok, but receiver isn't nearly the need CB is.

I would have much rather taken a flyer on one of them versus a CB coming off an ACL injury. I would have also taken a flyer on the big Georgia TE Washington.

Washington has med red flags...and was the second best TE on his team by a country mile. He reminds me a bit of Leonard Pope. Guys built like him often fail in the NFL.

At the back end of round 3, guys like Ika were still available when we picked Wilson.

I wouldn't have taken Wilson, but I do see the appeal.

You have to remember we have less than 1/10th the information the NFL teams do. I saw mocks of Ringo in round two, Washington in round one, Ika in round one and none of that happened for a lot of reasons.

 

[Stout]

But those drills literally ARE predictors of success. For linemen 40 times don't matter and bench press actually doesn't matter much either (unless woefully deficient).

I was reading an article the other day about the high rate of success of OL who have great 3 cones and short shuttles. It's a significant rate, like 65%. That means you take those guys later in the draft and you find a starter.

I and many in football view combine numbers like this more as a rule out rather than an indicator. Like, if they're awful at these drills, it's a red flag. In no way, shape, or form does one literally translate to the field, though. The reverse is true as well--bad numbers don't indicate failure. Ask Anquan Boldin. Are they more likely than not to be helpful, these non-football number? Sure, they have some use. They're not close to the end-all be-all, however, and just because you're agile in shorts doesn't mean the same is true in pads.

And, once again, we're talking in general, not with this specific player.

 

[BritCard]

But those drills literally ARE predictors of success. For linemen 40 times don't matter and bench press actually doesn't matter much either (unless woefully deficient).

I was reading an article the other day about the high rate of success of OL who have great 3 cones and short shuttles. It's a significant rate, like 65%. That means you take those guys later in the draft and you find a starter.

It's higher than that. Drafted O line with a short shuttle sub 4.47 have started 84% of games for teams that drafted them.

 

[lobo]

I do admit, this draft has led to some really good threads.

the board is producing great arguments worth reading

most appreciated, seriously

I go radio silent and disregard stuff when some of our fellow fans go off the tracks.

 

[gmabel830]

Hyatt is going to be terrible man. The more I watched, the less I liked. He runs like two routes and faced only like 10 snaps of man press all year and he failed miserably.

Hyatt had 67 catches for 1,267 yards and 15 touchdowns last year in the SEC... he must be really good at those two routes.

 

[SissyBoyFloyd]

Hyatt had 67 catches for 1,267 yards and 15 touchdowns last year in the SEC... he must be really good at those two routes.

My biggest concern is there seemed to be more impactful, potential starting players available when most of these guys were selected.

x2 ..... draft could have looked so much different which I feel most of us would have been so thrilled over. When I wonder how and why, the only thing I can come up with is that they had pre-summarized who they wanted and who would be available when and didn't adjust much as the draft presented itself in real time.

But what do I know.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Hyatt had 67 catches for 1,267 yards and 15 touchdowns last year in the SEC... he must be really good at those two routes.

Lots of bad NFL players were really good at a few things in college football. There is a reason a player with Hyatt's speed and production went so late. The Cardinals already have an underachieving speedster who has actually performed in the NFL (Marquise Brown).

Like I said, the more I watched and read on Hyatt the less I liked. I would be happier with Michael Wilson than Jalin Hyatt because I think Hyatt's ceiling is occasional gimmick plays.

Andy Isabella had like 200 yards against Georgia alone during his final season at UMass.

 

[gmabel830]

Lots of bad NFL players were really good at a few things in college football. There is a reason a player with Hyatt's speed and production went so late. The Cardinals already have an underachieving speedster who has actually performed in the NFL (Marquise Brown).

Like I said, the more I watched and read on Hyatt the less I liked. I would be happier with Michael Wilson than Jalin Hyatt because I think Hyatt's ceiling is occasional gimmick plays.

Andy Isabella had like 200 yards against Georgia alone during his final season at UMass.

I guess the draft is truly to each their own!!

 

[Harry]

They don't. They do have to do with him being agile though. If you look at Gaines draft write ups they almost all include words to the effect of "Gaines is an athletic and agile offensive lineman who will excel in a zone running scheme" (this was taken from an actual profile).

I'm not sure there is any such thing as separate in game agility, is not like you just turn it off for a game but turn it on for the combine. But either way his tape his full of his athleticism and agility. What it isn't full of is sound technique. His feet are fine, his hands are not. But that's why he's in the 4th round.

NFL.com

• Pass protection features subpar posture and balance.
• Body control issues pop up too frequently on tape.
• Leans into pass punch and opens himself for counters.
• Slow to get feet sliding to protect his edges.

Doesn’t sound like game agility.

 

[Rohinaz]

I'll give it an A because of the trades and the picks in the 1st and 2nd rounds. 2 blue chip players. The rest of the picks will be hard to tell right away but I bet many of them get playing time next year.
Finally, picking up and extra 1st, 2 3rds and 5th sets us up big time for next draft.

Some mock drafts for 2024 have us picking 1st and 2nd overall.

 

[football karma]

speaking of hard drafts to evaluate:

only 12 of 32 first rounders from 4 years ago had their option picked up

a 38% hit rate in round 1

 

[gmabel830]

NFL.com

• Pass protection features subpar posture and balance.
• Body control issues pop up too frequently on tape.
• Leans into pass punch and opens himself for counters.
• Slow to get feet sliding to protect his edges.

Doesn’t sound like game agility.

Sounds more like technique issues than agility issues to me. But to each their own.

 

[Tacticool Nerd]

This will definitely be a draft class to judge after the season is over.

 

[Goodyear Card]

I'll give it an A because of the trades and the picks in the 1st and 2nd rounds. 2 blue chip players. The rest of the picks will be hard to tell right away but I bet many of them get playing time next year.
Finally, picking up and extra 1st, 2 3rds and 5th sets us up big time for next draft.

Some mock drafts for 2024 have us picking 1st and 2nd overall.

I give this draft a D. The only positive is we should have some really good picks next year. We needed a home run in the draft to have a successful off season and we got a single. I wanted two starters at a position of need and was hoping for three. The loss of the third-round pick for tampering hurt us. We could have got a good IOL or defensive linemen with that pick.

I know Paris Johnson will most likely start at one of the guard positions, but I am not thrilled with taking a guard with the #6 pick. Was he the 6th best player of the draft?

Selecting B.J. Ojulari in the second round was baffling. How many LB do we need? We signed Kyzir White and Josh Woods in free agency. We have Myjai Sanders and Cameron Thomas who both produced in their limited opportunity, and we have Simmons and Collins.

Selecting a WR in the third round. Why? We have Hopkings, Brown, Moore, Dortch and we signed Pascal to a $4.5M contract.

It seems like we are stocking up on LB and WR, when we desperately need IOL and DL help.

I wish I could just walk away and come back after the 2024 draft. It is going to be very difficult to watch games this year.

 

[BirdGangThing]

I wish I could just walk away and come back after the 2024 draft. It is going to be very difficult to watch games this year.

I'm thinking of taking up Xanax, from what I gather it doesn't just make you numb you also forget a lot of stuff. If I could just find a Dr who knows what it's like to be a Cardinals fan... unlimited refills