What Does It Take To Play for the Suns?

George O'Brien

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With 12 guys under contract, it seems unlikely the Suns will add someone whose name anyone recognizes. Perhaps someone will "fall into their laps", but at this point its all tallk.

The problem is that most players are ill suited to playing Suns basketball. This is in part because the Suns fast break is unlike any other in basketball.

The Suns break is not about positions, but roles. A lot of people misunderstand the roles and end up making incorrect assumptions about what the Suns need. From what I can tell, the Suns break works like this:

Once the ball is rebounded or stolen, two wing players go either corner, the trigger man pushes the ball forward followed by a "hammer" and a "trailer".

What happens depends on the defense. If the defenders collapse to defend the basket against layups (standard transition defense), the trigger man hits one of the wings for three. If the defense spreads to stop the wings, the trigger man heads toward the basket to draw away the initial defender. At that point, the hammer takes a second path toward the basket and can take a pass if the path is open. If all four are defensed, then the trigger man kicks back to a trailer who sets up for a jump shot. If the defense rotates, the ball is passed around the horn to the open man.

The key is to be set to take a shot before the opponent's big man/men get back. Even if they do get back, it usually takes a few seconds for their defense to adjust and re-establish their perferred matchups.

Why use this terminology? 2004-05, the trailer was Q Richardson and Hunter was used as hammer. Going into last season, the Suns expected to use KT as trailer. KT is not really suited to play hammer, but he makes sense at trailer because trailer is typically the last player down the court - not uncommon for a rebounder. It is nice if the trailer has some range on his shot, but accuracy is more important because he will usually be open.

It is notable that the Suns offseason has involved getting a trigger in Banks, and wing in Pike, and a trailer in Marks. Banks is not an exceptional three point shooter, but in the break it is more important that he be able to get the ball to the open man - which he can do. What makes so interesting is that he is a vastly greater threat to take the ball all the way to the basket than Nash. But unlike Barbosa, Banks has a lot more experience kicking the ball out and appears to be a better finisher.

How does this effect recruiting? IMHO, adding wings who can't shoot a high percentage of three pointers is not going to get playing time. Likewise, big men who can only play hammer are unlikely to play much with both Amare and Boris being well suited to hammer and Marion might also play hammer in a small ball lineup.

For all the interest expressed in Wilcox, he is at most a hammer. What role does Devon George play? Whenever a player comes up in conversation, the issue of what they do on the break is crucial.

Trigger - Nash, Banks (maybe Barbosa, but he is far from ready)

Wing - Bell, Marion, Barbosa, Jones, Pike

Hammer - Stoudemire, Diaw

Trailer - KT, Marks plus Diaw and any of the wings in small ball lineup
 

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George O'Brien said:
With 12 guys under contract, it seems unlikely the Suns will add someone whose name anyone recognizes. Perhaps someone will "fall into their laps", but at this point its all tallk.

The problem is that most players are ill suited to playing Suns basketball. This is in part because the Suns fast break is unlike any other in basketball.

The Suns break is not about positions, but roles. A lot of people misunderstand the roles and end up making incorrect assumptions about what the Suns need. From what I can tell, the Suns break works like this:

Once the ball is rebounded or stolen, two wing players go either corner, the trigger man pushes the ball forward followed by a "hammer" and a "trailer".

What happens depends on the defense. If the defenders collapse to defend the basket against layups (standard transition defense), the trigger man hits one of the wings for three. If the defense spreads to stop the wings, the trigger man heads toward the basket to draw away the initial defender. At that point, the hammer takes a second path toward the basket and can take a pass if the path is open. If all four are defensed, then the trigger man kicks back to a trailer who sets up for a jump shot. If the defense rotates, the ball is passed around the horn to the open man.

The key is to be set to take a shot before the opponent's big man/men get back. Even if they do get back, it usually takes a few seconds for their defense to adjust and re-establish their perferred matchups.

Why use this terminology? 2004-05, the trailer was Q Richardson and Hunter was used as hammer. Going into last season, the Suns expected to use KT as trailer. KT is not really suited to play hammer, but he makes sense at trailer because trailer is typically the last player down the court - not uncommon for a rebounder. It is nice if the trailer has some range on his shot, but accuracy is more important because he will usually be open.

It is notable that the Suns offseason has involved getting a trigger in Banks, and wing in Pike, and a trailer in Marks. Banks is not an exceptional three point shooter, but in the break it is more important that he be able to get the ball to the open man - which he can do. What makes so interesting is that he is a vastly greater threat to take the ball all the way to the basket than Nash. But unlike Barbosa, Banks has a lot more experience kicking the ball out and appears to be a better finisher.

How does this effect recruiting? IMHO, adding wings who can't shoot a high percentage of three pointers is not going to get playing time. Likewise, big men who can only play hammer are unlikely to play much with both Amare and Boris being well suited to hammer and Marion might also play hammer in a small ball lineup.

For all the interest expressed in Wilcox, he is at most a hammer. What role does Devon George play? Whenever a player comes up in conversation, the issue of what they do on the break is crucial.

Trigger - Nash, Banks (maybe Barbosa, but he is far from ready)

Wing - Bell, Marion, Barbosa, Jones, Pike

Hammer - Stoudemire, Diaw

Trailer - KT, Marks plus Diaw and any of the wings in small ball lineup

Nice post, kind of gives an idea of what the Suns look for. Hard thing is they look for the perfect player, and that guy isn't usually available. But I guess when you are as close as the Suns are (or think they are), you don't really need to find a star, just people that can fill specific roles.
 

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we need another trailer, unless of course the Suns truly believe Marks can be a solid player
 

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George O'Brien said:
For all the interest expressed in Wilcox, he is at most a hammer. What role does Devon George play? Whenever a player comes up in conversation, the issue of what they do on the break is crucial.

Trigger - Nash, Banks (maybe Barbosa, but he is far from ready)

Wing - Bell, Marion, Barbosa, Jones, Pike

Hammer - Stoudemire, Diaw

Trailer - KT, Marks plus Diaw and any of the wings in small ball lineup

this is ridiculous as well. George have you ever even watched Wilcox? The guy is a hammer AND has the ability to hit a 15 footer - he's basically a MUCH BETTER version of Hunter. Throwing Marks into the mix, a guy who's a career 42% shooter and basically nothing but a scrub doesn't do much for your theory there either.

As far as Devean George, the guy is a wing and pretty much just shot threes (ala Pike) for the last three years. Their percentage in the last three years is almost identical.

So, in answer to the above, both guys seem to fit perfectly with the roles you talked about above and George can actually still play a little (while Pike is washed up trash).
 
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George, post of the year. You should have been the commentator of Magic Johnson's Better Basketball DVD.
 
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George O'Brien

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cheesebeef said:
this is ridiculous as well. George have you ever even watched Wilcox? The guy is a hammer AND has the ability to hit a 15 footer - he's basically a MUCH BETTER version of Hunter. Throwing Marks into the mix, a guy who's a career 42% shooter and basically nothing but a scrub doesn't do much for your theory there either.

I'd love to have Wilcox, but like most open court guys, he's mostly a hammer. A key to the Suns is that they can use only one at a time.

As far as Devean George, the guy is a wing and pretty much just shot threes (ala Pike) for the last three years. Their percentage in the last three years is almost identical.

Devon George is a career 34% three point shooter who hit 31.3% last season and 34.9% in 03-04. He was slightly better in 04-05, but in 15 games that doesn't prove much.

Pike is a career 39.9% career three point shooter who was injured last season. That doesn't mean he'll be enough of a player to stay on the court, but I'm guessing he'll be able to shoot.

So, in answer to the above, both guys seem to fit perfectly with the roles you talked about above and George can actually still play a little (while Pike is washed up trash).

Pike may be washed up, but George is a career 39.2% shooter from the field. To give some perspective, Bo Outlaw has a career average of 56.6%. (No I'm not suggesting Bo is as good as George at other parts of their game.)

Sun's wings need to be good outside shooters. I'm concerned that Marion isn't a good enough three point shooter to spread the floor enough on the break, but Marion does have a decent midrange game and is a threat to go back door. Maybe George will spontaneously turn into a good shooter with the Mavs, but I not convinced.
 

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George O'Brien said:
Pike may be washed up, but George is a career 39.2% shooter from the field. To give some perspective, Bo Outlaw has a career average of 56.6%. (No I'm not suggesting Bo is as good as George at other parts of their game.)

george, how is anyone suppposed to take anything you say seriously when you try to "give some perspective" by comparing the shooting statistics between a wing player who does ALL of his work OUTSIDE versus a player who does ALL of his work INSIDE, scoring ONLY on layups and dunks. Exactly what does that comparison get you?

Seriously, you might as well have thrown Shaq's name in there instead of Outlaw, only then it would be TRULY OBVIOUS just how bad the comparison and lack of perspective would be.
 

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George, I don't know about you but I want another hammer. Amare was a great hammer who could pound the ball inside, although (obviously), he could do much more. I want another hammer just in case.

The Suns need at least one more 4/5 who can grab some offensive and defensive rebounds and score inside when the game is slowed in the half-court. Actually, I would settle for a good rebounder (sort of like the earlier version of Malik Rose). A good hammer can do a lot of damage. Yes, he may not be as skilled a shooter as the Suns would like, but if such a player could do a lot more, the Suns would probably not have a chance at acquiring such a player.

Now this discussion makes me want to break out in song...

If I had a hammer
I'd hammer in the morning
I'd hammer in the evening
All over this land...


"IF I HAD A HAMMER", words and music by Lee Hays and Pete Seeger

Sorry, now let me regain my composure. :)

Again, let me apologize. Maybe this should have been titled "The Hammer Thread."
 
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George O'Brien

George O'Brien

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I think the future of the Suns hammer position is going to involve "point center". Right now, a key to stopping the Suns break is to stop the trigger, but if the hammer can bring the ball up it is vastly more difficult to slow the break. However, this means focusing on guys like Boris and (if what we are hearing is correct) Amare, who can handle the ball in the open court AND finish on the break. Guys like Stephen Hunter are just too one dimensional.
 

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From watching the games I'd say that the keys to limiting the Suns points in transition are 1) get back in numbers at least equal to the number of Suns and 2) identify the 3pt shooters and stay with them.

I don't even know what you mean by 'stopping the trigger' - its an old adage that you want to stop the man with the ball from driving all the way. Nash rarely attempts to drive to bucket on breaks so stopping him that way isn't much a key. What you'd like to do is make him pick up his dribble but, of course, thats just about impossible. You'd be doing well to pick him up at the 3pt line and stay in front of him.

As for the presense of 'hammers' that can bring the ball up making it 'vastly more difficult' for the defenders - I'd say that was a vast exaggeration. Of course, its true that the more guys you have that can lead the break the better off you are because the PG is not always positioned to do it. You're also better off to have lots of players that are fleet afoot or ones that can finish - whether it be with dunks or cute maneuvers at the bucket like Tony Delk used to use.
 

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Hmmm. Interesting post George.

Marion has been a hammer much of the time in this scheme. He's also been a wing when Amare is in the game. But it looks to me that if Marion isn't playing the hammer role, his effectiveness is diminished significantly.

But you do have to play defense as well.
 
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George O'Brien

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JCSunsfan said:
Hmmm. Interesting post George.

Marion has been a hammer much of the time in this scheme. He's also been a wing when Amare is in the game. But it looks to me that if Marion isn't playing the hammer role, his effectiveness is diminished significantly.

But you do have to play defense as well.

Actually Marion's role is heavily dependent on whether he is getting the defensive rebound or is able to get out on the break. Marion's biggest advantage on the break is that he can catch long passes and has the body control to finish.

Clearly Marion's inability to hit the three consistently seriously limits his value on the wing on the break. However, I'm convinced they could use him in slightly different way and still be effective. In particular, he could go back door when teams try to play off of him.

Errntknght : I don't even know what you mean by 'stopping the trigger' - its an old adage that you want to stop the man with the ball from driving all the way. Nash rarely attempts to drive to bucket on breaks so stopping him that way isn't much a key. What you'd like to do is make him pick up his dribble but, of course, thats just about impossible. You'd be doing well to pick him up at the 3pt line and stay in front of him.

Tony Parker presses Nash all the way up the court. There are two or three others that try to do that as well, but most aren't quick enough. Another approach is to use a backcourt trap/double team to force the ball out of his hands such as what the Lakers did in that bizzare game they stole.
 
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Errntknght

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Another approach is to use a backcourt trap/double team to force the ball out of his hands such as what the Lakers did in that bizzare game they stole.

It wasn't in fast break situations that the Lakers trapped Nash at the midline. Anything you can do to slow Nash upcourt helps against the fast break but if teams tried to trap him regularly at the midline in fast break situations they'd pay dearly for it. The surprise factor is crucial against a PG like Nash so doing it regularly removes that and you've kept two guys out at midline leaving someone else unguarded nearer the hoop. (And don't forget the Lakers got great help from the refs on one of their two successful traps.)
 
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George O'Brien

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Errntknght said:
Another approach is to use a backcourt trap/double team to force the ball out of his hands such as what the Lakers did in that bizzare game they stole.

It wasn't in fast break situations that the Lakers trapped Nash at the midline. Anything you can do to slow Nash upcourt helps against the fast break but if teams tried to trap him regularly at the midline in fast break situations they'd pay dearly for it. The surprise factor is crucial against a PG like Nash so doing it regularly removes that and you've kept two guys out at midline leaving someone else unguarded nearer the hoop. (And don't forget the Lakers got great help from the refs on one of their two successful traps.)

As I said, nothing actually works well consistently against the Suns other than hitting all their shots. Still, there is little doubt that opponents are going to keep working on tactics to get the ball out of Nash's hands.
 

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As I said, nothing actually works well consistently against the Suns other than hitting all their shots.

I disagree. At least for teams with the speed to do it, getting back on defense and staying on our three point shooters is quite effective. You give up some offensive rebounding, but then nothing is free. Probably the key thing for teams is matching up quickly with our three point shooters because that is not the normal defense agains fast breaks. As with anything that is non-normal, our fast break works better in the regular season than in the playoffs.
 
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George O'Brien

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Errntknght said:
As I said, nothing actually works well consistently against the Suns other than hitting all their shots.

I disagree. At least for teams with the speed to do it, getting back on defense and staying on our three point shooters is quite effective. You give up some offensive rebounding, but then nothing is free. Probably the key thing for teams is matching up quickly with our three point shooters because that is not the normal defense agains fast breaks. As with anything that is non-normal, our fast break works better in the regular season than in the playoffs.

Matching up against the three point shooters is great - if they have enough guys back. Teams with two slow inside guys are typically at a numerical disadvantage. If both wings are good three point shooters, matching up against both with only three guys back means the trigger and hammer are in a two on one situation against a point guard. Something has to give.

Some teams are better suited to get back quickly, but most have to go small to avoid a numbers problem on the break.
 

Errntknght

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Some teams are better suited to get back quickly, but most have to go small to avoid a numbers problem on the break.

Yup, thats the whole idea of pushing the tempo the way the Suns do.
 

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Errntknght said:
Some teams are better suited to get back quickly, but most have to go small to avoid a numbers problem on the break.

Yup, thats the whole idea of pushing the tempo the way the Suns do.

obviously the other thing that helps to slow down the Phoenix Suns is to score on them. The Phoenix Suns can still push the tempo, but they are much less effective when they can't get stops. That's one of the biggest problems they have with San Antonio.

Joe
 
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George O'Brien

George O'Brien

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Joe Mama said:
obviously the other thing that helps to slow down the Phoenix Suns is to score on them. The Phoenix Suns can still push the tempo, but they are much less effective when they can't get stops. That's one of the biggest problems they have with San Antonio.

Joe

Amen.
 

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