What Is D'Antoni Seeing We Aren't?

[George O'Brien]

I keep wondering if D'Antoni is seeing something we aren't.

1. What is he seeing in Casey that we aren't? Casey is shooting only 40.8% and just 29.7% for three. He averages just 1.6 rpg in 20.6 minutes and just .44 steals. I keep hoping he will rediscover his shooting touch, but right now I can't see what he is providing that playing a bigger guy or even Outlaw wouldn't. What is D'Antoni seeing we aren't?

2. What is it about Jake's play that gets him so much of the scarce big men minutes? Jake gets more rebounds, but Hunter blocks shots and is more effective on defense. Offensively, Voskuhl shoots 42.1% while Hunter hits 65.4% of his shots. Voskuhl has more minutes yet Hunter has scored almost twice the number of points. Once again, what is D'Antoni seeing we aren't?

Voskuhl 156 minutes (average of 12 minutes in 13 games)
Hunter 143 (average of 11 minutes in 13 games)
Lampe 49 (average of 8.2 minutes in 6 games)
Vroman 30 (average of 6 minutes in 5 games)
-----------
Total 378 out of 3,865 through 16 games. This means the bigs are averaging averaging under 10% of the minutes and an average total of 23.6 minutes per game.

As low as this is, these stats are deceptive because a lot of these minutes are garbage time or the last two minutes of the quarter, which isn't enough time to for most players to get into the game.

This season the Suns have taken 1352 shots while their opponents have taken 1420. Considering that the Suns created 24 more turnovers than they gave up, this reflects 67 offensive rebound advantage the Suns opponents have had. Some of this is that the Suns shoot better, but the Suns have not been playing the cream of the NBA.

3. Why does Q (not to mention Marion and Jacobsen) have a total green light on shooting threes? This season Q has taken 102 three point shots but has hit only 28. Considering that he has taken a total of 199 shots, this means that more than half of his shots are for three yet he has the worst three point average of any of the Suns shooters. Here is how the Suns three point shooting stacks up:

Johnson - 49.3% 34-69
Nash - 41.2% 21-51
Barbosa - 33.3% 8-14
Marion - 29.2% 19-65
Jacobsen - 29.7% 11-37
Richardson - 27.5% 28-102

Richardson's overall shooting percentage is 36.2%, but he is hitting 45% of his non-three point shots. Jacobsen is hitting 53% of his non-three point shots but his overall average is just 40.8%.

Some of this may be Nash's fault. He is used to passing the ball to guys who can hit open jumpers, but the Suns is not a great outside shooting team. They have their games and their spurts, but IMHO their offense needs to be more focused on cutters and mid range shots rather than getting shooters open looks for three. Take away JJ and Nash, the Suns are shooting only 28.9% for three.

Larry Brown can be a jerk However, I like his rule that no one can take a three point shot until after the ball has been passed at least three times. For most of the Suns, it looks like they need something to get them to work the ball more.

BTW, the key to the Suns success has been their defense which has been pretty good all season and generates fast breaks. What is not working is their over reliance on three point shots when in their half court sets.

 

[Islington]

1. Casey is getting minutes I think because he' s the only guy the Suns can bring off the bench to keep up the skill-ball pace. Tabuse is on the injured list and Barbosa is well ... the season is just beginning but I was thinking he would show more improvement. I know Barbosa was hurt and all ... would you rather see Barbosa first off the bench or Casey?

2. It confuses me as well why Jake gets minutes and not Hunter. I'm looking around the EPSN website, so I'm not sure where you found out the total number of shot taken by the Suns and their opponents (did you count free throws?) Perhaps, more telling (and unsurprising), the Suns are dead last in their defense rebounding at 65.9%.

3. It bothers me that Q is shooting so many threes. Before the season started, I pictured him coming off the bench of posting up guards with someone like Lampe hanging around outside. But I haven't seen him really make a difference in a game by posting-up anyone consistently.

 

[Errntknght]

George, >>I keep wondering if D'Antoni is seeing something we aren't.

1. What is he seeing in Casey that we aren't?

2. What is it about Jake's play that gets him so much of the scarce big men minutes?<<

Well, coach Mikey was dumb enough to quote Q's +/- as a reason to give him a ton of minutes so he might be dumb enough to actually use them in determining who plays. I've haven't checked their ratings but that's one possible reason.

Personally, I think he's giving Casey, and to some extent Barbosa, minutes because he has decided to go to the wall with small ball. No doubt he'd like to win lots of games but I think he has another agenda as well, and that's proving that all out small ball is a winning strategy in the NBA. The more the 'bigs' contribute the less compelling are the Suns wins, so he simply doesn't play them. I'm sure he'd never admit to such a thing but that seems to be the best explanation for what he's doing with the lineups.

Given the Suns roster, any NBA coach would go small a good bit of the time but virtually all of them would be pushing hard to develope a big lineup - conservative ones would probably choose Jake and the risk-takers would go with Hunter.

 

[Errntknght]

Islington, "3. It bothers me that Q is shooting so many threes. Before the season started, I pictured him coming off the bench of posting up guards with someone like Lampe hanging around outside. But I haven't seen him really make a difference in a game by posting-up anyone consistently."

For a while I was hoping that Q would break out his supposedly strong post-up game but then he did to some degree, and you know what - he just isn't all that good at posting up. I'm sure there are some guards he can successfully post up but as a general weapon it is nothing fearsome. From his reputation, I was envisioning something along the lines of a Desmond Mason. He not nearly as good as Penny Hardaway. In his favor I will say that he occasionally does something along the baseline - that Sahara of the Suns offense.

He is a career 35% shooter from the arc and I wouldn't mind seeing him exercising shot selection that puts him at the level but, as you and many others have said, he's gone way overboard. But I don't want him posting up a bunch either - drive, cut, work the baseline are better options for him. Heck, just for the novelty he could set an off-ball screen once in a while.

 

[Joe Mama]

I think there are two reasons Casey Jacobsen is seeing so many minutes. First, I think the Suns are trying to increase his trade value. Right now I think we could argue that it isn't exactly working while since CJ is shooting rather poorly on a team putting up big offensive numbers. CJ is going to be an unrestricted free agent this summer. Some team will give him more money and more playing time.

Secondly, CJ might not be shooting well, but he is at least a threat to knock down a long-range shot if he has left wide open. He helps to spread the floor. However when CJ is clearly being abused like he was the other night against Wally a better switch his defensive assignment or get him out of the game.

There's no question that Coach D'Antoni and the Phoenix Suns need to find a way to get Q going in the low post. He's got the best back to the basket game on this team. I was very frustrated when he quickly established himself against Wally Friday night, but they really didn't go back to him there. I still don't have a big problem with him shooting three-point shots if he is wide open. I get very frustrated though when he continuously takes contested three-point shots early in the shot clock. I think too many times he already has in his head that he is going to shoot the ball as soon as he gets it.

I'm not sure why D'Antoni has gone away from Hunter. For the most part he's played very well and had an immediate impact on the team when he has played. Off the top of my head I can only think of one or two bad outings for him, and he was only in the game a few minutes for those.

I hate to say it, but I do wonder if Ernknight might be onto something with his comments about D'Antoni trying to prove people wrong about small ball. I don't see it as some sort of conspiracy. There might be something to it though. If there really is something to that I only hope that he realizes he can prove that small ball works without playing small every time all the time.

Joe Mama

 

[Errntknght]

Joe, "There's no question that Coach D'Antoni and the Phoenix Suns need to find a way to get Q going in the low post. He's got the best back to the basket game on this team. I was very frustrated when he quickly established himself against Wally Friday night, but they really didn't go back to him there."

He may have the best such game but that's saying little on this team. But if he does post well against someone then by all means go back to it, as you say.
What I've seen so far is that he developes what he's doing so slow that other defenders are usually there to erase his shot if he does get it up. I've yet to see a real power move or a quick 'up and under' or a good fallaway jumper - he just pivots a couple of times and dumps the ball in the general direction of the hoop and hopes. Nor has he shown much of a knack for drawing fouls.

I think Lampe might be capable of playing well with his back to the basket - he's got that thick, strong looking body and if he could get his soft touch working on a jump hook he'd figure to be tough to stop. Of course, he hasn't shown an inclination to play down low at all... if he did, he'd probably emulate Nash and go for a fallaway. But maybe that would work out okay.

 

[Beaver]

I keep wondering if D'Antoni is seeing something we aren't.

Practice???

 

[Cheesebeef]

Richardson has been unconscious tonight - just thought that was funny considering the thread. I do think he shoots too many threes though - although it appaears that he's coming around out of the beginning season funk he was in. 33 points in the third!

 

[Joe Mama]

As good as Q was tonight, Hunter was very important when the Suns took over the game. He really made it much more difficult for Portland to get those easy baskets in the lane. Portland was getting easy, close basket after easy, close basket before his insertion. It should also be noted that they played very well with him and Amare Stoudemire in the game together.

So much for not being able to win with a regular lineup. What do you say about that, Coach D'Antoni?

Joe Mama

 

[binkar]

George I have never agreed with you more than I do with your numbers 1 and 2. It is VERY annoying and makes me pissed when I watch the games.

 

[sly fly]

Moritorium on D'Antoni bashing starts right now. If you think you can do better than 14-3, give Sarver a call.

For criminy sake, just enjoy the season without dissecting every minute detail.

How many wins will it take for some of you to lay off D'Antoni? And, how quickly will you bash when they lose two in a row?

 

[panfolk]

It's very frustrating to see players you want to watch rot on the end of the bench when you know their development is key to our eventual playoff success. I'm happy Hunter got 21 minutes tonight as it's a good sign. I get to see the Seattle game and hopefully I'll get to see Hunter in action (though I really want to see Lampe most). I think "bashing" is a little harsh.

 

[George O'Brien]

Hunter played 21 minutes, grabbed 6 rebounds and helped turn the game around while Voskuhl did not play. Considering that the TV guys, the radio guys, and everyone else was wondering why Hunter wasn't playing - I think I was in good company. Maybe Hunter isn't that good in practice, but he brings something the Suns need.

Tonight it was obvious that Jacobsen was getting killed by Patterson and yet Casey played 19 minutes while Outlaw only 5. Bo grabbed 3 rebounds in that period.

As for Q, we've always known he is capable of shooting the lights out and tonight was that kind of night. I'm a big fan of playing the hot hand and he was as hot tonight as he was cold on Friday. I just wish Q would recognize when he just isn't hitting and go to the rack when that happens.

BTW, I think there is a good chance that some players get minutes based on how well they do in practice. My questions are not just rhetorical. It may be that Mike IS seeing things we aren't.

 

[AZZenny]

It's very frustrating to see players you want to watch rot on the end of the bench
LOL- I had to read that a couple times, thinking, "Why would you want to watch players rot on the end of the bench?"

I had company so only got to keep half an eye on the game, but it sure seemed like Mike D' must have heard you guys kvetching about Hunter's playing time, and Hunter made good use of the opportunity. Or else he's not really as dense as some have implied, he's just a half-step slower.

 

[Errntknght]

Maybe I have been a trifle harsh on D'Antoni - he does have the disadvantage of seeing the guys in practice while we only see them play when it counts...

 

[Joe Mama]

Moritorium on D'Antoni bashing starts right now. If you think you can do better than 14-3, give Sarver a call.

For criminy sake, just enjoy the season without dissecting every minute detail.

How many wins will it take for some of you to lay off D'Antoni? And, how quickly will you bash when they lose two in a row?

if you go back and read many of the posts critical of coaching you will see that they say they are happy with the way the team is playing. They just say that with a few adjustments they could be playing better. Last night D'Antoni played Hunter, even together with Amare Stoudemire, and it made a positive impact on the game.

If all we did was sang the praises of team on this message board it would be a boring place. Almost all of the posts critical of the elusively small ball approach are well constructed and well argued.

Joe Mama

 

[AZZenny]

References in today's paper about Hunter being in the doghouse, not having shown focus on offense, defense OR practice - so yeah, maybe something had been going on that we were not privy to.

When a team is winning as well and as entertainingly as the Suns, you sort of have to give the benefit of the doubt to the guys in charge. Doesn't mean you can't play armchair GM/coach - it's a fan's god-given duty!

 

[George O'Brien]

I like to think that most regulars on this board try for balance. We look for positives when the team struggles and look for areas to improve when the team is playing well.

Overall, I have been impressed by D'Antoni. The team plays hard and they really work on defense. He seems to have them buying into his approach and playing team basketball. Overall, I like what I see.

BTW, I think Larry Brown is quite possibly the best coach in the NBA and I have been very critical of some of his decisions. Nobody's perfect. I know I'm not.

 

[BC867]

Maybe I have been a trifle harsh on D'Antoni - he does have the disadvantage of seeing the guys in practice while we only see them play when it counts...

LOL

 

[F-Dog]

1. What is he seeing in Casey that we aren't? Casey is shooting only 40.8% and just 29.7% for three. He averages just 1.6 rpg in 20.6 minutes and just .44 steals. I keep hoping he will rediscover his shooting touch, but right now I can't see what he is providing that playing a bigger guy or even Outlaw wouldn't. What is D'Antoni seeing we aren't?

Speed and spacing. 20 minutes of Casey means 20 more minutes of Small Ball, and 40+ minutes of Small Ball means that the opposing big men have worn down by the end of the game. Playing a big guy instead may or may not give the Suns an advantage right then, but it definitely won't give the Suns an advantage at the end of the game, like playing Casey will.

Besides, from what I've seen, Casey hasn't been a huge liability on the court, despite his poor numbers. ("Not a huge liability" will probably be the epitaph for Casey's NBA career.)

2. What is it about Jake's play that gets him so much of the scarce big men minutes? Jake gets more rebounds, but Hunter blocks shots and is more effective on defense. Offensively, Voskuhl shoots 42.1% while Hunter hits 65.4% of his shots. Voskuhl has more minutes yet Hunter has scored almost twice the number of points. Once again, what is D'Antoni seeing we aren't?

It seems pretty simple from where I'm sitting. At the start of the season, Jake was getting the backup center minutes, with Hunter playing spot minutes behind him. When Hunter started to play better than Jake, he moved to backup center...then Hunter began to struggle, while Jake was playing well, and so the job went back to Jake...and now Steven Hunter's back in the rotation again.

I expect that Hunter will be playing for a while now, but he hasn't nailed down that spot in the rotation by any means. Given his reputation for inconsistency, it's probably for the best.

 

[myrondizzo]

its not like hunter is slow i think him in there running is just as effective at wearing down the opposing teams center. just my opinion

 

[SirStefan32]

As good as Q was tonight, Hunter was very important when the Suns took over the game. He really made it much more difficult for Portland to get those easy baskets in the lane. Portland was getting easy, close basket after easy, close basket before his insertion. It should also be noted that they played very well with him and Amare Stoudemire in the game together.

So much for not being able to win with a regular lineup. What do you say about that, Coach D'Antoni?

Joe Mama

Excellent point Joe. I think the biggest problem for the Suns is giving up rebounds (thus giving oposing big men easy 2nd chance points.)

I would love to see Hunter get even more minutes.

 

[binkar]

Moritorium on D'Antoni bashing starts right now. If you think you can do better than 14-3, give Sarver a call.

For criminy sake, just enjoy the season without dissecting every minute detail.

How many wins will it take for some of you to lay off D'Antoni? And, how quickly will you bash when they lose two in a row?

I dont think he is being bashed. I think everyone is happy with our record and the coach. I for one love D and his coaching style. However I think there are better options than CJ.

Relax pal.