What is our goal for the Suns, to win a championship or just make the playoffs?

[frdbtr]

Originally posted by zett
NOW HEAR THIS!!! Kobe will be a sun next year. It's going to happen, Because all involved want it to happen, Kobe wants a team he can build not step into an instant winner and chip in, we will clear enough cap spave to get to that point, If we can't trade the saleries away they will be left unprotected in the expansion draft, we will get it done and he will lead us to a championship as long as injuries don't rear there ugly head! & B.C will be saying we are 35 & 1 or what ever it will be when we get there!!!

How do you know? Are you in the meetings with Bryan and Jerry Colangelo? Have they told you that they are going to sign Kobe at all costs. Here are what we know today. The Suns are going to have about 7 million under the cap to sign free agents. Kobe will be trying to clear his name next summer and probably won't be out of his mess until the next season starts. If he opts out on his contract he will be looking for Max money which will start him at around 12-14 million next year. Where are the Suns going to get that kind of money? Will Kobe opt out of his contract? I think that (as others have pointed out) that Kobe doesn't opt out next season because of his legal problems. I don't understand how you can proclaim that Kobe "will be a sun next year" when you have no solid information that he will.

 

[George O'Brien]

I do NOT think there are any great big men available to join. Amare. My point is that a great big man is always more important than a great guard with the single exception of Michael Jordan. the reason is the need to defense the interior.

What if the Suns can't get a GREAT big man. A really good big man joining Amare could easily be more valuabe than a great guard.

 

[Dr. Dumas]

Originally posted by devilalum
Kobe is an elite player but there is no way JC signs him.

Who know what will happen.

Name one example of JC bringing in a guy with Kobe's baggage.

Name one guy that is/has been as good has Kobe that the Suns have had a chance to sign?

Kobe is the only free agent worth clearing cap room and giving the max but Kobe will never be a Sun.

The Kings don't have an elite player and they have the best record.

They thought that Webber was going to be that elite player, it just didn't turn out that way. Sac also has a full group of players that are pretty darn good, maybe not elite, but very good.

 

[Dr. Dumas]

Sorry devilalum for how my last post turned out. I made comments that were supposed to not be in bold. The way it turned out, makes it look all screwed up.

 

[cly2tw]

The Kings never won a championship either. Even if the Lakers falters this season, Spurs have a better chance to win than the Kings.

 

[elindholm]

My point is that a great big man is always more important than a great guard with the single exception of Michael Jordan.

And the other single exception of Isiah Thomas. And the other single exception of Magic Johnson in 1988, by which time Abdul-Jabbar was nowhere near the dominant force on his team.

So that's nine of the past 16 titles.

 

[newfan101]

Originally posted by elindholm
My point is that a great big man is always more important than a great guard with the single exception of Michael Jordan.

And the other single exception of Isiah Thomas. And the other single exception of Magic Johnson in 1988, by which time Abdul-Jabbar was nowhere near the dominant force on his team.

So that's nine of the past 16 titles.

Good point. Factor in that there are only two truly great big men in the game today, and it's conceivable that the championships played 4-5 from now won't feature any great big men at all.

 

[elindholm]

Factor in that there are only two truly great big men in the game today...

Only one of whom is a center.

 

[newfan101]

Originally posted by elindholm
Factor in that there are only two truly great big men in the game today...

Only one of whom is a center.

And that center is in his 12th year and already starting to break down.

 

[zett]

Originally posted by frdbtr
How do you know? Are you in the meetings with Bryan and Jerry Colangelo? Have they told you that they are going to sign Kobe at all costs. Here are what we know today. The Suns are going to have about 7 million under the cap to sign free agents. Kobe will be trying to clear his name next summer and probably won't be out of his mess until the next season starts. If he opts out on his contract he will be looking for Max money which will start him at around 12-14 million next year. Where are the Suns going to get that kind of money? Will Kobe opt out of his contract? I think that (as others have pointed out) that Kobe doesn't opt out next season because of his legal problems. I don't understand how you can proclaim that Kobe "will be a sun next year" when you have no solid information that he will.

How do you know we will only have 7 million under the cap? Do you know what other moves the c's are making? or do you know that the bobcats won't pick any suns players in the draft /are you in there meetings? stop bagging on people and then turn around and do the same thing! and yes I am in the meetings I KNOW!!!!

 

[frdbtr]

Originally posted by zett
How do you know we will only have 7 million under the cap?

Have you read anything that has been discussed since the trade?

Originally posted by zett
Do you know what other moves the c's are making? or do you know that the bobcats won't pick any suns players in the draft /are you in there meetings? stop bagging on people and then turn around and do the same thing! and yes I am in the meetings I KNOW!!!!

Yeah Right, sure. Thanks Bryan Colangelo

 

[zett]

Originally posted by frdbtr
Have you read anything that has been discussed since the trade?

Yes, I have read everything, and if you think any one on this board has a clue to whats going to happen, then your whack! every thing on here is pure speculation, this board is not gods gospil so quit looking at it like it is. my comments were strictly my feelings and not anything more then that. so climb off that high horse of yours and drink a glass of ****

 

[George O'Brien]

Originally posted by elindholm
My point is that a great big man is always more important than a great guard with the single exception of Michael Jordan.

And the other single exception of Isiah Thomas. And the other single exception of Magic Johnson in 1988, by which time Abdul-Jabbar was nowhere near the dominant force on his team.

So that's nine of the past 16 titles.

Abdul-Jabbar was not where near as good as he was in the '70's, but he could still defend the paint and was unstoppable with his sky hook. No Jabbar, no championships (the same could be said about Magic I suppose, but it is a team game).

The point about the Bad Boys Pistons was that they are tansitional team. Chuck Daly was the guy who figured out that the refs would not call as many fouls inthe playoffs, so he could get by with some rough but unathletic big men to win. It took a few years for the rest of the NBA to adjust.

Another thing that happened was a rule change around 1990 or '91. Prior to that, players could use both hands to push opponents out of the lane. After that, they could only use one hand, which meant that the smaller centers of earlier days were pushed aside.

The lack of great big men has mostly to do with the need to have guys who are really strong as well as athletic. Virtually every draft report says "needs to get stronger". Guys with offensive skills prefer to play on the outside rather than get mugged. We read about guys who are 7'2" who want to play point guard, but only a few immobile mountains want to play center.

This is why I am so pessimistic. Amare is a great offensive player, but he is not a great defender and may never be. I would like to see someone beside him who could defend the opponent's best big may witout help, grab some rebounds, and maybe score a few points. Unless Lampe turns into a superstar over night, I don't see that person on the Suns and the Suns won't compete without him.

But if in order to get Kobe the Suns have to give away their draft picks and eliminate all their cap, then I think the Suns are doomed to being a defensive nightmare. They'd score some more points, but they won't have a chance in the playoffs.

 

[elindholm]

I'm sorry, but this all sounds like 20-20 hindsight. Subject to a thousand contrived provisions, "no team" has won a recent title without a dominant center; ergo, it is impossible to win a title without a dominant center. That doesn't convince me.

Once O'Neal retires, you'll see plenty of titles won by teams without dominant centers. It just so happens that the most dominant player in the game right now is a center, but during the Jordan years, it was a shooting guard.

 

[cly2tw]

Kobe is the best individual defender in this game, like MJ in his prime used to be. Amare is not very good yet but showed signs that he could develop into reasonably good one-on-one defender. If we get rid of the only bad defender in Marion, a lineup with Kobe/Barbosa/JJ/Amare with a center committee Jake/White/Lampe would be one tough defensive team.

 

[George O'Brien]

Originally posted by elindholm
I'm sorry, but this all sounds like 20-20 hindsight. Subject to a thousand contrived provisions, "no team" has won a recent title without a dominant center; ergo, it is impossible to win a title without a dominant center. That doesn't convince me.

Once O'Neal retires, you'll see plenty of titles won by teams without dominant centers. It just so happens that the most dominant player in the game right now is a center, but during the Jordan years, it was a shooting guard.

My point is not that the Suns need a DOMINANT center. They just need a strong defensive center. I could live with a Brad Miller. I could live with a Ben Wallace (even if he would be out of possition). There are several others who can defend the paint and get the job done.

My point is that Brad Miller went for a little over $7 million last year. The Suns could afford a Brad Miller equivalent and still pay for two first round picks. If you sign a max contract with anybody, the chances of solving the center problem are pretty remote.

 

[elindholm]

Brad Miller is not especially known for his interior help defense. This is the only year that he's had anywhere near one block per game.

Besides, when I talked hypothetically about finding a servicable mediocre center for MLE money, you shot down my off-the-cuff suggestions. So let me return the favor: which "quality" center do you see getting for $7 million? Or more to the point, what is the complete list of centers -- your "several others" -- that meet your standard? (And why is Brad Miller on that list, if what you're mainly concerned about is interior defense?)

Also, you talk about rule changes. How about zone defenses? There are other ways to stop teams from scoring inside.

And for that matter, your designated shot blocker can be an atheletic power foward rather than a center.

 

[elindholm]

Also:

If you sign a max contract with anybody, the chances of solving the center problem are pretty remote.

But if you sign a non-franchise center for $7 million, your chances of getting a second bona fide star to go with Stoudemire are pretty remote.

It's difficult either way. Choose your poison. Me, I'd rather take the top-three superstar and look for role players.

 

[JCSunsfan]

On his radio show today, Casey Jacobsen just gushed over Lampe's play in practice. He said out to 20 feet he's shooting way over 50%.

He said he's also a decent defender and a good rebounder. Seems to be making good progress defensively.

I say we keep working on developing what we have.

 

[Chaplin]

Originally posted by elindholm
Also:

If you sign a max contract with anybody, the chances of solving the center problem are pretty remote.

But if you sign a non-franchise center for $7 million, your chances of getting a second bona fide star to go with Stoudemire are pretty remote.

It's difficult either way. Choose your poison. Me, I'd rather take the top-three superstar and look for role players.

Exactly. This whole arguement about getting a player to solve the so-called "Center problem" is bordering on ridiculous.

I can tell you right now, if Brad Miller was on the market, he could probably command more than 7 million a year.

A "servicable" center will be near max money, definitely not worth that much. And as Eric asked, who are your alternatives? Theo Ratliff?? DeSagana Diop?? Tony Battie?? Not even Michael Olowakandi is worth the money you're talking about. There are no centers (and I mean real centers) that are worth what they are making. Brad Miller is the closest thing to a bargain at the position you can find, and he's not even a real center!

 

[George O'Brien]

Originally posted by JCSunsfan
On his radio show today, Casey Jacobsen just gushed over Lampe's play in practice. He said out to 20 feet he's shooting way over 50%.

He said he's also a decent defender and a good rebounder. Seems to be making good progress defensively.

I say we keep working on developing what we have.

I will agree that all bets are off if Lampe turns out to be the center I'm looking for. I'm still not sure there is any way to clear enough cap space to get a max contract, but I would be comfortable if I knew the #5 spot was secure.

As for Miller, I realize he's not ideal. Radoslav Nesterovic went for just about $500,000 over the mid cap and he's putting up some good numbers. Including 8.1 rpg and 2.2 blocks per game in 30 minutes.

Once the Suns sign someone to a max contract, then the most they can offer a center is mid cap. Don't like Nesterovic or Miller? Well the guys available for mid cap are not nearly as good NOR WILL THEY BE.

Since the only way the Suns can get a Kobe is to give away one or both of their lottery picks to clear the cap space, this means that it is Lampe or bust.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Originally posted by George O'Brien
Once the Suns sign someone to a max contract, then the most they can offer a center is mid cap. Don't like Nesterovic or Miller? Well the guys available for mid cap are not nearly as good NOR WILL THEY BE.
[/B]

This is probably true. The Suns could sign a max and still sign a mid-cap player. I doubt it would bother them to do so, as long as they do not go over the tax threshold.

In today's NBA there are very often some very good players that can be had for the MLE. But the Suns won't use it just to use it. There must be someone that they really want.

 

[frdbtr]

Originally posted by zett
Yes, I have read everything, and if you think any one on this board has a clue to whats going to happen, then your whack! every thing on here is pure speculation, this board is not gods gospil so quit looking at it like it is. my comments were strictly my feelings and not anything more then that. so climb off that high horse of yours and drink a glass of ****

Another post by zett
How do you know we will only have 7 million under the cap? Do you know what other moves the c's are making? or do you know that the bobcats won't pick any suns players in the draft /are you in there meetings? stop bagging on people and then turn around and do the same thing! and yes I am in the meetings I KNOW!!!!

A little contradictory, I would say. I am not on a high horse and you proved my point with your own words.