What is the Status of our WR Corp?

[mjb21aztd]

I know Murray wants lamb but im hoping keim sees differently and takes oline or simmons

There are talented wrs every draft but cards must protect murray so he can have a long carrer!!!

 

[GatorAZ]

Let’s give him another year...

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[TheCardFan]

His college level of competition was bad.

The catch against the 49ers...did you see 4 guys nearly catch him? That's not elite speed (see Hill- KC).

The other concern is his elusiveness...seems very tight. He was never a threat on jet sweeps.

 

[TaylorSwift]

#1. offensive sets are why a receiver may matter

The Cardinals ran 1000 offensive plays in 2019. Great number because it makes the percentages easy.

34.6% of the time they were in 11 personel or 3 WRs.
31.7% of the time they were in 10 personel or 4 WRs
0.5% they went 5 WRs

This means that if your assumption is that the #8 pick is at best a #4 WR then that person will play 32.2% of the time. If they become the #3 receiver they would play 66.8% of the time.

#2. Christian Kirk

I like Kirk but he has missed 1/4 of the season twice now. He also was #84 in yards before catch and #101 in yards after the catch. Larry, as old as he is, beat him in both areas. Between lack of availability and lack of explosiveness he wasn't a reliable option at #2. Damiere Byrd outperformed him in the final three games.

If Kirk doesn't improve, he won't be even a #3 when he is healthy enough to be a #3.

#3. The Rookies from Last Year.

Disappointing is all that can be said about the rookies from last year. It is magnified by how many other rookie WRs hit.

Hakeem Butler was the worst WR in camp and would have been cut if he wasn't put on IR.

Andy Isabella has neither Murray or Kingsbury's confidence. Those 3 games where Byrd became the defacto #2? Isabella had 1 target.

KeeSean didn't see the field after week 11.

Basically the exact opposite of what I would expect for rookies happened here. As the season went on they became less of a factor until they weren't a factor at all.

There is nothing to indicate that these guys were good picks or can be counted on in 2020. You have to hope Isabella steps up but you also can't get caught up in sunk costs.

#4. Larry Fitz

The end is coming sooner than later. 1 or 2 years at max. You are drafting a receiver this year or next year. If you believe this is your chance at an elite duo that you can pair with Murray for the next 5 years then you do it.

#5. Salary Cap Management

You are going to need to pay Hopkins with his talent. Kirk's rookie deal ends in 2 years. Larry is on a 1 or 2 year deal.

A rookie at #8 will make just under 5 million annual. Drafting that rookie now means that when Larry retires you aren't tied to paying Kirk as a #2 WR. In fact, that rookie's contract will be up for renewal right when Hopkins is ending and his career is winding down. It gives you greater flexibility long term

Well done, summarizes my belief why a wr at 8 is still not out of the question

 

[Chris_Sanders]

Well done, summarizes my belief why a wr at 8 is still not out of the question

To be honest I was pretty opposed to WR at #8 because I think our lines still need help but the exercise of arguing against my own beliefs showed me it's really plausible

 

[Chris_Sanders]

I still think this draft will yield 1 round WR talent in round 2 so my dream is a trade back

 

[CardinalCovfefe]

Kirk is a good #3...even better #4 WR.

I don't see Isabella's "elite speed" or elusiveness on jet sweeps/screens. He had two big plays (and they were great) but I expect Henry Ruggs type of speed from him. Not a lot of hope for him right now IMO.

I think Johnson is a very solid #4/#5 WR...he needs to be more consistent.

Butler is the wild card...long shot. If he can turn into a real player, we have something. If not, we move on quickly.

Hopkins
Fitz (it's been a long time since #11 wasn't our #1)
Kirk
Johnson (70/30 he makes it)
>>>>drop off
Isabella 50/50 (maybe)
Butler 30/70 (too early to tell)

Ruggs and Isabella ran the same 40 times at the combine. 4.27....but Isabella is listed at 4.31. That 4/100ths of a second is meaningless.

 

[GuernseyCard]

I don't think anyone who wants an OT thinks it's going to be an overnight transformation. We're just wildly aware that the talent on this line sucks.

If you think we're going to the playoffs, the Super Bowl, whatever, with five offensive linemen who can't sniff a Pro Bowl alternate, I don't know what to tell you.

You've got to invest in the line eventually. Sexy picks get you nowhere when the line is subpar every ****ing year. Our linemen are constantly hurt, castoffs from another team, old, or a combination of those. There's not a single great lineman on this team.

I don't know why you think these other positions are "vital to make this offense go," that we need elite caliber talent backups all across the board, besides offensive line, where apparently, we can get by with garbage. Which no other successful team is doing, but okay. Justin Murray had an okay game or two, and PFF rates us in the bottom third of the league. Rock and roll, guys. Time to be excited.

I don't pay attention to the Pro Bowl popularity contest as a reflection of much; do, however, pay attention to All Pro choices and I note that Mitchell Schwartz (2nd team) was the only 0-line member from the SB finalists.

We have 2 first round selections, a second and a third in our likely starting 5; hardly untalented castoffs and whatever other disparaging points you want to make.

What were PFF ratings for 2019 based on quarter season; first 4 games, second four, etc?

I mildly suspect a steady improvement in their first season together.

Let's add, let's improve, but spare us the hyperbolic bull-crap!

 

[Solar7]

I don't pay attention to the Pro Bowl popularity contest as a reflection of much; do, however, pay attention to All Pro choices and I note that Mitchell Schwartz (2nd team) was the only 0-line member from the SB finalists.

We have 2 first round selections, a second and a third in our likely starting 5; hardly untalented castoffs and whatever other disparaging points you want to make.

What were PFF ratings for 2019 based on quarter season; first 4 games, second four, etc?

I mildly suspect a steady improvement in their first season together.

Let's add, let's improve, but spare us the hyperbolic bull-crap!

So just because they were drafted highly, they're automatically talented? Sure. They're in the bottom third of PFF's rankings, if you want to adhere to PFF as the Bible here.

None of these players are sniffing an All-Pro. I'm disparaging because they're bad.

Cardinals fans have been beaten into such awful lines that the first time they *kinda* play alright, we act like that's been solved. Time to move on to #4 wide receivers.

It's not hyperbolic to say they're all pretty oft-injured, old, cast-offs, or unproven.

 

[GuernseyCard]

So just because they were drafted highly, they're automatically talented? Sure. They're in the bottom third of PFF's rankings, if you want to adhere to PFF as the Bible here.

None of these players are sniffing an All-Pro. I'm disparaging because they're bad.

Cardinals fans have been beaten into such awful lines that the first time they *kinda* play alright, we act like that's been solved. Time to move on to #4 wide receivers.

It's not hyperbolic to say they're all pretty oft-injured, old, cast-offs, or unproven.

You're the one who leaned on PFF to make your earlier point, and I note that you didn't respond to whether their numbers showed improvement over the course of the season. Understandable, as it would probably undermine your harangue.

Yes, they did come into the League judged as talented and they're still around for reasons that evidently escape you.

 

[SissyBoyFloyd]

Recently some WRs have broken out in their first year. But traditionally WRs broke out in year 3. It just takes that long for most, no matter how talented, to catch on to the pro game and their new teams offensive system and playbook. Kirk should look great this year. I would not give up on our last year rookies yet unless coaches think one is just hopeless. They should all look much better next year, except this epidemic will slow their progress some if not a bunch.

 

[Solar7]

You're the one who leaned on PFF to make your earlier point, and I note that you didn't respond to whether their numbers showed improvement over the course of the season. Understandable, as it would probably undermine your harangue.

Yes, they did come into the League judged as talented and they're still around for reasons that evidently escape you.

I personally hate PFF. I don't like it at all. So if we'd like to throw that out the window, fine with me. I just know people use it very seriously here.

As far as why I didn't respond to season-long improvement, I don't have a PFF subscription, so I can't answer that.

PFF and Football Outsiders both rank us in the bottom third of the league at the end of the season.

I prefer hard numbers, like Kyler Murray being the 5th most hurried QB in the NFL.

Again, however they were judged early on has been ruined by the fact that they're now not whatever the original league consensus was. I'm not even ripping on DJ and Pugh, or Sweezy (a 7th rounder), but this line as a whole is in desperate need of a talent upgrade. It's not like we have small sample sizes on these guys - they've all been in the league for years, outside of whatever we're doing at C.

I'm not sure why this take is something that's riling you up short of just not liking that it's not a positive one.

 

[GuernseyCard]

I personally hate PFF. I don't like it at all. So if we'd like to throw that out the window, fine with me. I just know people use it very seriously here.

As far as why I didn't respond to season-long improvement, I don't have a PFF subscription, so I can't answer that.

PFF and Football Outsiders both rank us in the bottom third of the league at the end of the season.

I prefer hard numbers, like Kyler Murray being the 5th most hurried QB in the NFL.

Again, however they were judged early on has been ruined by the fact that they're now not whatever the original league consensus was. I'm not even ripping on DJ and Pugh, or Sweezy (a 7th rounder), but this line as a whole is in desperate need of a talent upgrade. It's not like we have small sample sizes on these guys - they've all been in the league for years, outside of whatever we're doing at C.

I'm not sure why this take is something that's riling you up short of just not liking that it's not a positive one.

I'm with you on improvement, although inclined to believe that any draft additions will impact in seasons to come.

Come September, DJ, Pugh, Cole, Sweezy, Gilbert is the likely lineup and, for one, I'm not hyperventilating over this prospect.

 

[TheCardFan]

Ruggs and Isabella ran the same 40 times at the combine. 4.27....but Isabella is listed at 4.31. That 4/100ths of a second is meaningless.

Agreed. However, Isabella's "football speed" has not translated to the NFL (yet?).

 

[Solar7]

I'm with you on improvement, although inclined to believe that any draft additions will impact in seasons to come.

Come September, DJ, Pugh, Cole, Sweezy, Gilbert is the likely lineup and, for one, I'm not hyperventilating over this prospect.

I'm fine with seasons to come. Gilbert and Murray aren't long term solutions, neither is Sweezy, and finding the next step on the line is going to be hard work. This isn't about pure fear on the OL, but accepting that defense and OL are our real problems, and hard to address.

 

[TheCardFan]

Agreed @Solar7

We need upgrades across the line T, G, and C...not to mention we don't have a long term solution at any of them (jury is still out on DJ).

We also need help at DL and LB (2 new guys are on potentially 1 year deals).

WR is a luxury pick but I am fine with it vs drafting Levi Brown and passing on Adrian Peterson.

Maybe its s a player we aren't even considering/debating right now?

 

[CardinalCovfefe]

Agreed. However, Isabella's "football speed" has not translated to the NFL (yet?).

Lol. Like Ruggs has. And he's looking at a transition to NFL football that evvvrrrybody deliberately overlooks because... HE's THEIR FAVE!

 

[Stout]

Specifically, the whole group of WRs we drafted recently. How many do we have now and will they all stick with the team? As I remember, we were all pretty excited about all we drafted last year, plus those we already had and drafted before that also. Seems we have a bunch more to talk about besides H, F, and K.

Then you remember wrong. I HATED the Isabella pick, and haven't seen a damn thing to change my mind. We have an elite #1, an awesome aging star that is pretty much a #3 by now, as much as I love him, and a #3 in Isabella. Anyone beyond that is interchangeable with low-level depth WRs on other rosters. Butler has talent but poor operator head space and timing.

We need a top-level WR badly. Whether that's at the top of the draft or not, we'll see, but I don't trust Keim to find one later, so I'd lean towards #8.

 

[BritCard]

It’s amazing how some think one OT will make our offensive line this impenetrable force. It’s more about cohesiveness, familiarity and health. Lets look at what Keim has done.

On defense he added 3 pieces that ALL of us felt we needed to upgrade, ILB, OLB and DL. Experienced players.

offensively he’s has kept the starting offense from last year intact with the exception of center and added an all pro WR.

It’s become more and more evident to me we are now in “ build a juggernaut offense” mode. Do not be shocked if we add a WR, RB and even a TE. Surround Kyler with weapons. With a trade back we could still end up with Lamb in the first, pick up a 2nd and add Dobbins.

This road would surely shore up depth at positions that are vital to make this offense go.

We can’t wait around wondering if last years wr’s are going to be ready this year. If Hopkins were to get hurt we’d be right back in the same boat as last, in fact worse. I don’t think we would have left Byrd AND Cooper walk without a plan to draft a WR.

Get the popcorn ready. It’s going to be a show.

I'm late to this thread but come on man. You know your stuff.

You don't get a better offensive line with cohesion and familiarity by NOT drafting quality tackles. The best teams in the league have the best O line and those O lines were built through the draft, not overpaying average FA's.

AQ is already gone from last year. Chances are if things stayed as they are Gilbert takes over at RT. That's already 2 changes.

There's also only 1 ball on offense. We have 3 quality WR's, 3 more to develop, two receiving backs, I decent TE1. There's no need to add any more receiving options.

Drafting an OT is "building a juggernaut offense". All those flashy players ain't worth 2 cents if your QB is flat on his ass or running around like a headless chicken.

 

[GuernseyCard]

I'm late to this thread but come on man. You know your stuff.

You don't get a better offensive line with cohesion and familiarity by NOT drafting quality tackles. The best teams in the league have the best O line and those O lines were built through the draft, not overpaying average FA's.

AQ is already gone from last year. Chances are if things stayed as they are Gilbert takes over at RT. That's already 2 changes.

There's also only 1 ball on offense. We have 3 quality WR's, 3 more to develop, two receiving backs, I decent TE1. There's no need to add any more receiving options.

Drafting an OT is "building a juggernaut offense". All those flashy players ain't worth 2 cents if your QB is flat on his ass or running around like a headless chicken.

We are drafting future inputs to the O-line at best in this draft, and I'm fine with that.

I doubt very much that there's a plug-and-play OT in this draft who'll send a healthy Gilbert to the bench.

 

[Proximo]

The receiving Corp is a great problem to have. Just two seasons ago we were thin and now?

You can argue all you want of who is #4 or #5. Bottom line it's going to come down to special teams.

Butler is out and replacing Cooper will be difficult. Kirk can return kicks but the injury factor plays in.

I do not agree replacing cooper will be difficult. He is a borderline nfl player at best. Not a good return man or receiver. Would not surprise me to find a better player as an undrafted free agent.

 

[SoonerLou]

Maybe its possible to trade down get Wills/one of these wrs in the 2nd round

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[slanidrac16]

I'm late to this thread but come on man. You know your stuff.

You don't get a better offensive line with cohesion and familiarity by NOT drafting quality tackles. The best teams in the league have the best O line and those O lines were built through the draft, not overpaying average FA's.

AQ is already gone from last year. Chances are if things stayed as they are Gilbert takes over at RT. That's already 2 changes.

There's also only 1 ball on offense. We have 3 quality WR's, 3 more to develop, two receiving backs, I decent TE1. There's no need to add any more receiving options.

Drafting an OT is "building a juggernaut offense". All those flashy players ain't worth 2 cents if your QB is flat on his ass or running around like a headless chicken.

I’m not going to be heartbroken at all if we draft an ot, dl, lb, cb or a wr. All of them would make sense one way or another to me.

I just want us to get the best player available and not have to look back and regret letting the next Michael Thomas, Arron Donald, Pp21 slip through our fingers.

So if we draft Wills and he turns out to be Levi Brown we will regret not taking Simmons or Lamb or Okudah because we were hell bent on building an o- line.

 

[Stout]

Man, KJ Hamler in the 2nd would be super sweet. So much so that I'm kind of leaning away from WR in the 1st, if he can be had in the 2nd. No guarantees, though.

I haven't been following this nearly enough, but I think the optimal pick would be if Simmons were available, snagging him in a heartbeat. I think it's possible he slides. You have to figure 2-3 QBs go before us, with Cincy, LA, Miami, and Washington up there, plus trade up potential. Best case, say 3 QBs go early. That leaves us a pick between what's left of a pool of Simmons, Young, Okudah, and...damn, that's as far as I get with the "you run to the podium for them" prospects. I guess I'd go with the top OL at that point.

Then again, what do I know? All I know is that when I can marry a great player with coming from the college program I support, or some other tie-in (like the safety from New Castle a few years ago), I'd love it to happen. So, fingers crossed for Hamler!

 

[Rain Man]

I do not agree replacing cooper will be difficult. He is a borderline nfl player at best. Not a good return man or receiver. Would not surprise me to find a better player as an undrafted free agent.

I remember some nice catches he made and was thought of before the other wrr's for playing time.

Yes he was a serviceable return guy but who else was going to do it? Who now? Surely not Kirk.