What is your "Lock of the Draft"?

[LVCARDFREAK]

Actually, that's what I was saying in March and April of 2003. He's been our "QB of the Future" for the past two seasons, in that the players that were on the roster were on the downsides of their careers (Blake) or already on the way out (Plummer). Just because you have a designated QB of the Future is not guarantee that that player is going to be good. Josh was a developmental player like Chad Pennington was for the Jets. Josh is gone from QB of the Future to QB of the Present. His 2004 season will decide whether or not he still has a future with the Cards.

People are getting pretty ballsy with their "Locks" here.

Pennington developmental? How did you come up with that? He was rated as the top QB in the draft that year and was selected 18th overall of round 1.

He was the 1st QB taken. (the class was weak considering Gino Carmazzi was the next qb taken that year, but Pennington was never a developmental project)

The Jets, knowing they had salary cap hell wrapped up in Testervede werent about to release him so they did the smart thing and gave Pennington 2 years to learn the system and allowed him to play quite afew games in year 2.

Pennington is one of the most accurate passers int he game right now and IMO one of the top 5 QB's in the NFL.

I know Chad Pennington, and Josh McCown is NO Chad Pennington!

 

[stretchthefield]

Michael Turner will be a Cardinal

The Cards will draft Michael Turner (It's a LOCK)

 

[kerouac9]

2003's Lock of the Draft

Man, do you remember how down Section 11 was on Terrell Suggs?

And, because it was so fun:

Pay attention, people! We have our QB of the future, and, like it or not, his name is Josh McCown. They said it when we drafted him as the 3rd QB off the board last year, and they said it the day that we signed Blake.

I give you my Kerouac 9's LOCK OF THE DRAFT: We will not draft a QB in the first four rounds. You can take that to the bank. Maybe next year, if McCown looks like the next Gio Carmazzi, but not this year.

 

[kerouac9]

Pennington developmental? How did you come up with that? He was rated as the top QB in the draft that year and was selected 18th overall of round 1.

He was the 1st QB taken. (the class was weak considering Gino Carmazzi was the next qb taken that year, but Pennington was never a developmental project)

The Jets, knowing they had salary cap hell wrapped up in Testervede werent about to release him so they did the smart thing and gave Pennington 2 years to learn the system and allowed him to play quite afew games in year 2.

Pennington is one of the most accurate passers int he game right now and IMO one of the top 5 QB's in the NFL.

I know Chad Pennington, and Josh McCown is NO Chad Pennington!

So your contention is that Chad Pennington attempted only 12 passes the first two years of his carrer not because he wasn't ready for Prime Time, but because they couldn't afford to release Vinny Testaverde? Despite the reviews that Pennington was still too much of a cerebral QB and not instinctive enough (this is what they were saying when he was just starting)? Do you want to keep to that story?

I'm not saying that McCown and Pennington are the same player, or even similar ones, I'm just saying that neither were drafted to start right away.

 

[LVCARDFREAK]

So your contention is that Chad Pennington attempted only 12 passes the first two years of his carrer not because he wasn't ready for Prime Time, but because they couldn't afford to release Vinny Testaverde? Despite the reviews that Pennington was still too much of a cerebral QB and not instinctive enough (this is what they were saying when he was just starting)? Do you want to keep to that story?

I'm not saying that McCown and Pennington are the same player, or even similar ones, I'm just saying that neither were drafted to start right away.

I am not real sure who 'They' is. but yes I will keep to that story. Pennington was projected to go to the Steelers and Niners that eyar but when they both passed the Jets took him as BPA. They were not looking for a QB that year and didint intend on drafting one. The only 'development' Pennington went through was b/c Vinny was the starter. Had Pennington been drafted by the Steelers or Niners the Jets wouldnt have taken a QB at all. He slipped they grabbed him.

He was a very highly touted QB coming out of Marshall and was the top QB in the , albeit very weak, QB class that year. Had he been chosen by a team that could 'afford' to put him on the field he would have started right away.

You sure you still want to stick to your story?

 

[SECTION 11]

Man, do you remember how down Section 11 was on Terrell Suggs?

And, because it was so fun:

That was fun. I love the draft.

 

[LVCARDFREAK]

I don't know how often you were here at the time, but there was A LOT of optimism at the time that the Cards would take Leftwich or Simms or any QB on Day 1. It wasn't going to happed, but that didn't keep anyone here from fooling themselves about it. The "K9LOD" became a reviled refrain from mid-March to Mid-April. It was pretty funny.

I was around quite a bit (see the thread I bumped from the other day 2003 win loss predicitons) That was, I believe April of last year.

Hey I am only pulling your chain a little. Just reminding you not to break your arm patting yourself on the back so much!

I guess everyone was clamoring for a QB that year, and I myself would have loved Leftwhich, I just thoought it was painfully obvious it wasnt gonna happen!

Nice call though!

 

[SECTION 11]

LV: Do you have a lock or what?

 

[vikesfan]

The Cards will draft Michael Turner (It's a LOCK)

i kind of like this but what round?

BUT my money is on Julius Jones

 

[LVCARDFREAK]

LV: Do you have a lock or what?

Sorry, Not really.

I think the only thing I can think of is the Cards wont take a RB in round 1. But thats not much of a lock!

 

[kerouac9]

You sure you still want to stick to your story?

Maybe you're misunderstanding my argument. I'm not arguing that Pennington was a bad prospect or a bad pick. He was a great pick. What I'm saying (and I think that it's pretty obvious) is that Pennington wasn't ready for Prime Time when he was drafted. He didn't play his first two seasons not because (as it sounds like you're saying) they already have Vinny signed to a deal that was acceptable, but because Pennington wasn't as good as Testaverde and didn't give them as good a chance to win. Vinne put up passer ratings of 69.0 and 75.3 in 2000 and 2001. I bet that the Jets were really happy with that performance.

What I remember reading at the beginning of the 2002 season was that Pennington was slow to make the adjustment to the NFL, was "thinking too much" when he was practicing and in games, and that his coaches had to keep prodding him to trust his instincts.

Because the Jets kept Pennington on the pine for two seasons while enduring mediocre play at the quarterback position makes me think that CP wasn't ready to play when he was drafted, and not the year after he was drafted. That makes me think that he needed development. Hence, developmental prospect.

 

[LVCARDFREAK]

Maybe you're misunderstanding my argument. I'm not arguing that Pennington was a bad prospect or a bad pick. He was a great pick. What I'm saying (and I think that it's pretty obvious) is that Pennington wasn't ready for Prime Time when he was drafted. He didn't play his first two seasons not because (as it sounds like you're saying) they already have Vinny signed to a deal that was acceptable, but because Pennington wasn't as good as Testaverde and didn't give them as good a chance to win. Vinne put up passer ratings of 69.0 and 75.3 in 2000 and 2001. I bet that the Jets were really happy with that performance.

What I remember reading at the beginning of the 2002 season was that Pennington was slow to make the adjustment to the NFL, was "thinking too much" when he was practicing and in games, and that his coaches had to keep prodding him to trust his instincts.

Because the Jets kept Pennington on the pine for two seasons while enduring mediocre play at the quarterback position makes me think that CP wasn't ready to play when he was drafted, and not the year after he was drafted. That makes me think that he needed development. Hence, developmental prospect.

Well one could argue that all rookie QB's need devleopement, but you compared McCown to Pennignton and I dont believe their situations were anything alike.

Pennington was highly touted, very accurate. McCown was neither.
Pennington going into the draft and on draft day was head and shoulders the #1 QB in the draft class. McCown wasnt and was picked in the what, 3rd round?

Pennignton rode the pine for 2 years for a couple of reasons: One was, as stated, b/c of Testeverde. He had a huge contract they were trying to get out from under and he was entrenched as the starter. I dont think you can call him developemntal based on riding the pine his 1st year.

The second issue, and why he didint start his second year is because they switched coaches and offensive systems. Remember Al Groh drafted Pennington and then in his 2nd year, Edwards was hired and brought in a new offensive system. Thus he sat a year while learning that and Vinny played out his contract.

In essence he sat for 2 seperate systems. I dont think it was because he 'wasnt ready for prme time' as you state. Hell one could argue Leftwich wasnt ready either this year, but some coaches choose to throw QB's out there. Both of Penningtons coaches chose to give him a year to learn their systems. Had Groh been the coach in Penningtons second year I am very confident Pennington would have started.

I just dont beleive you can compare McCown to Pennington as their differences are night and day. McCown was taken b/c of his atheltic ability and as you state a developmental QB. But you dont take developemntal QB's in the 1st round, they are QB's who will be your future as Pennington is for the Jets. I dont think anyone thought McCown was drafted to lead this team to the SuperBowl do you?

Like I stated earlier had Pennington been drafted by the Steelers or Niners as projected he would have started year 2 if not year 1

 

[Lex]

My lock of the draft

Robert Gallery will be the most productive NFL player taken in this draft.

... and the Cardinals will NOT draft any relatives of Thomas Jones.

 

[RedStorm]

If Fitz is not there when we draft, we will trade down.

I will go one further and say..
If Fitz is not there when we draft, then we will take Sean Taylor. That is a lock. Done deal. Go home and come back tommorrow.

 

[kerouac9]

'Vegas:

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. Apparently, we don't see eye to eye on what the definition of what a "developmental prospect" is. I'm still kind of waiting for what yours is besides "Not Chad Pennington."

For what it's worth, I think that Steve McNair was a developmental prospect, as well. He attempted all of 129 passes over his first two seasons. Granted that's ten times what Pennington attempted, but whatever.

 

[LVCARDFREAK]

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. Apparently, we don't see eye to eye on what the definition of what a "developmental prospect" is. I'm still kind of waiting for what yours is besides "Not Chad Pennington."

For what it's worth, I think that Steve McNair was a developmental prospect, as well. He attempted all of 129 passes over his first two seasons. Granted that's ten times what Pennington attempted, but whatever.

I think your comparison to McCown is what I take issue with more than you calling Pennington a devlopmental QB. Personally I feel like there are very very few QB's ready to start in the NFL from day 1. They all need developement in some form or another.

McCown is what I would call a real developmental QB. Not highly touted, from a small school, no expectations, not very accurate, good atheltic skills coaches hope they can develop him into a serviceable NFL QB.

Pennington doesnt fit that bill IMO. He wasnt taken in the hope he can develop into a serviceable NFL QB. He was taken as the #1 QB in the draft, in round 1 on the 18th pick. That to me is being taken as a franchise QB, not developmental.

I just find it hard to believe you cant tell the difference in a QB prospect like Pennington and a QB prospect like McCown?

 

[kerouac9]

I just find it hard to believe you cant tell the difference in a QB prospect like Pennington and a QB prospect like McCown?

I see what you're saying. I really think that Mac thought that he was getting the next Brett Favre when he selected him with the third pick of the fourth round, 81st overall. It could turn out that McCown could turn out to be the steal of that draft.

There's very little comparison that can be made between McCown and Pennington. (1)They're very different types of quarterbacks. McCown is much more of the "new prototype" QB: Athletic, strong-armed, raw (Mike Vick, Quincy Carter, Aaron Brooks, Kyle Boller, Daunte Culpepper, Donnie McNabb). Pennington is the other "new" QB: mobile, but not fast, smart, accurate, but weak-armed (maybe based around Joe Montana, but current players are like Tom Brady, Jay Fiedler, Drew Brees, Joey Harrington). (2) They definitely came into the league a different levels, Pennington was probably far more ready to play than McNown, but we'll never know, because he didn't. (3) Personally, I think that the ceiling is higher for Pennington, and that while I don't know if he can be any better than he was in 2002, sitting for two years definitely helped him get to that ceiling faster.

The only comparison that I was making that neither McCown nor Pennington were viewed as anywhere near ready to start when they were drafted. As I remember, those same things were being said in 2000 when Pennington was taken. I could be wrong; I don't follow the Jets. The fact that the Jets watched Testaverde play very average ball for two years makes me think that, despite the mitigating factors that you mention (personally, though, Pennington as a 2nd year player made a better fit for the WCO than a veteran Testaverde), he wasn't ready.

I agree that no rookies are "ready for prime time" when they're drafted, but I think that some are more ready than others. P. Manning, D. Carr, D. Bledsoe, B. Leftwich, etc. were, apparently, much more equipped to start early than Pennington, McNair, or McCown.

My comparison is simply based that neither were ready to play NFL ball for some time regardless of their scouting report.

 

[AZCB34]

The Cards will draft Michael Turner (It's a LOCK)

I like Turner alot. In fact, I think he fills the concept of back Green appears to want. I would be very happy to get him...of course that would mean the Cards won't address defense until round 3 (assuming they get Fitz). Turner is a second round guy.

My lock...nobody will trade out of their spot in the top 5. Offers will be made but everyone will stand pat.

 

[JeffGollin]

and the Cardinals will NOT draft any relatives of Thomas Jones.
Just wondering, but is there something in the NFLPA contract that says that if you want to be a wide receiver, your name has to be Williams and if you want to be a RB, your name has to be Jones?

 

[Cheesebeef]

My lock of the draft i pretty simple: The Cards do something that drives half of the people BAT-SH*T CRAZY and has the other half Lauding the move and telling the crazies they are idiots and should find a new team.

Man I still remember last year driving up to Coachella and missing the draft only to get a call from Ouchie as we were waiting in the never ending car-line - all he said was CALVIN PACE. CALVIN PACE. AGGGHHHHH!!!!!!

It was pretty funny - damn I hope that kid actually ends up being at least average.

Honestly - for me - there is very little we could do wrong this year - esepcailly if we stay at 3 - if we get a QB - I'm super-stoked - if we get Fitz - I'm stoked and warming up to him more and more every day - If we get Williams I'm stoked- If we get Wilfork I'm stoked - love Miami players - there's endless possibilities and we should get someone who will either be a stud right away or our QB of the future - I'm good with either one.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

my lock - i will be unhappy with our draft and will be pleasantly surprised by one (hopefully more) of our draftees during the year.

 

[kerouac9]

I like Turner alot. In fact, I think he fills the concept of back Green appears to want. I would be very happy to get him...of course that would mean the Cards won't address defense until round 3 (assuming they get Fitz). Turner is a second round guy.

:wtf:

Turner doesn't sound anything like a Green runningback:

War Room analysis
Strengths: Is a durable back with a very good combination of vision, balance, body control and toughness. Has adequate-to-good straight-line speed once he gets going. Shows good vision and patience as a runner. Does a nice job of lowering his shoulder prior to contact. Is a tough, scrappy runner who is just as effective inside as he is outside. Has very good body lean. Is a well-built, powerful back with a terrific center of gravity. Drives his legs and picks up yards a lot of yards after contact.

Weaknesses: He has good speed but is not as fast as 40 time indicates. Seems to lack ideal burst to consistently turn the corner in the NFL. Does not show the explosive burst out of his plant that it takes to be a great cutback runner in the NFL. Is a bit of a straight-line runner who lacks elusiveness and the ability to shake defenders in the open field. Lacks experience in the passing game. Is a bit of an enigma as far as pass blocking and route running are concerned—he only had 26 receptions in two seasons as a full-time starter. Is not a great route runner, and hands are below average. His technique as a pass blocker is poor, and he is not as aggressive or physical as he needs to be.

Bottom line: Turner entered his junior season in 2002 season as a backup but took advantage of an opportunity to start because of injury and finished second in the nation with 1,915 rushing yards. He appeared in 45 games in his career and showed very good durability despite burdening a heavy load through his junior and senior seasons. There are concerns about his level of play and the fact that his production is bloated because of the run-oriented offense he played under, but he did nothing but help himself as a senior. He proved that his first season was not a fluke by carrying an extremely demanding running load and having some of his better games against legitimate defenses. Turner is a late Day 1 or early Day 2 prospect who likely will become an excellent backup capable of contributing on short-yardage carries, as a change of pace runner, as well as on special teams. Realistically, he will probably be nothing more than a backup in the NFL.

Dan Pompei analysis
Has strong legs and gains yards after the first hit. Plays with balance. Isn't real fast or elusive.

From the looks of the scouting report, he'll last well into the third round, and possibly into the second day (9th rated).

Turner is a durable back with vision, balance, body control and toughness. He has adequate straight-line speed once he gets going. Is patient and lowers his shoulders prior to contact. Is a tough, scrappy runner who is equally effective inside and outside. Is a well-built, powerful back with a terrific center of gravity. Picks a lot of yards up after contact. The problems are plentiful, though. He doesn't translate his good raw speed into running-back speed. Lacks burst to consistently turn the corner as he did at the collegiate level. Has good body control, but does doesn't show burst required to be a great NFL cutback runner. Lacks elusiveness and ability to shake defenders in open field. Inexperienced in the passing game. An enigma regarding pass blocking and route running. Below-average hands. His technique as a pass blocker is poor, and he is not as aggressive or physical as he must be. In 2002, Turner finished second in the nation with 1,915 rushing yards. As a senior, Turner averaged 5.3 yards on 310 carries. Turner is very durable, has decent straight-line speed and solid burst, vision and power. There are concerns that his production is bloated because of Northern Illinois' run-oriented offense. There also has to be concern about his inexperience as a receiver. Except for the Senior Bowl, Turner did nothing but help himself in his final college season. He proved that his junior season was not a fluke by carrying an extremely demanding load and having some of his better games against defenses such as Maryland and Alabama. Turner is a late Day 1 or early Day 2 prospect who could become an excellent backup on short-yardage carries and special teams. However, we believe he has little upside.

Might as well stick with Marcel Shipp. Kevin Jones, Julius Jones, and Tatum Bell (in that order) are the backs in this draft that most "fit" the Green prototype.

 

[AZCB34]

OK...screw Turner.

 

[LVCARDFREAK]

I see what you're saying. I really think that Mac thought that he was getting the next Brett Favre when he selected him with the third pick of the fourth round, 81st overall. It could turn out that McCown could turn out to be the steal of that draft.

There's very little comparison that can be made between McCown and Pennington. (1)They're very different types of quarterbacks. McCown is much more of the "new prototype" QB: Athletic, strong-armed, raw (Mike Vick, Quincy Carter, Aaron Brooks, Kyle Boller, Daunte Culpepper, Donnie McNabb). Pennington is the other "new" QB: mobile, but not fast, smart, accurate, but weak-armed (maybe based around Joe Montana, but current players are like Tom Brady, Jay Fiedler, Drew Brees, Joey Harrington). (2) They definitely came into the league a different levels, Pennington was probably far more ready to play than McNown, but we'll never know, because he didn't. (3) Personally, I think that the ceiling is higher for Pennington, and that while I don't know if he can be any better than he was in 2002, sitting for two years definitely helped him get to that ceiling faster.

The only comparison that I was making that neither McCown nor Pennington were viewed as anywhere near ready to start when they were drafted. As I remember, those same things were being said in 2000 when Pennington was taken. I could be wrong; I don't follow the Jets. The fact that the Jets watched Testaverde play very average ball for two years makes me think that, despite the mitigating factors that you mention (personally, though, Pennington as a 2nd year player made a better fit for the WCO than a veteran Testaverde), he wasn't ready.

I agree that no rookies are "ready for prime time" when they're drafted, but I think that some are more ready than others. P. Manning, D. Carr, D. Bledsoe, B. Leftwich, etc. were, apparently, much more equipped to start early than Pennington, McNair, or McCown.

My comparison is simply based that neither were ready to play NFL ball for some time regardless of their scouting report.

Nice Post and I see your points.

Let me ask you this, does sitting for a year make you a developmental QB? In other words do you think Carson Palmer is a Developmental QB? or Mike Vick? or Steve Young etc? My point being, sure Pennington may not have been ready to start his first year but neither were the above mentioned guys. I dont think any of them are considered developmental (I dont like Palmer but I use the point b/c he was the #1 overall pick and you dont draft developmental QB's #1)

I think when McCown came into the league there was no doubt, no matter what happened, he would not start that year. Hell it was even thrown around that Parsons may take the #2 QB spot from him. I dont think McCown was ready to start last year either as shown in his play earlier in the season. He is/was a truely developmental QB. A project if you will.


I think Pennington would have started year 2 had Al Groh been retained. He lit it up in preseason that year and clearly was ready to go. Did he graps the offense of Edwards? Maybe not, and maybe thats why he didnt start. I dont think it was because he couldnt play the game. I dont think it was because he couldnt read defenses, or make the throws, it was just a matter of sitting him while Testverde ran the offense and Pennington learned it.

Either way, I too was not comparing Pennington to McCown in the type of QB they are. Your right, they are completly different. What I was saying was more akin to comparing Rothlisberger or Maning this year to say Navarre or even as high as Losman. Sure both of those guys could turn out to be solid nfl QB's but they would need to be devloped into one. No team is gonna bank there future on either one of them until they prove they can play. The opposite can be said for Maning and Roth. All though, of course, they too need to be 'developed' they are not "projects" like the other 2. They are being counted on to be the future of the team that picks them.

I guess, in a nutshell, thats what I am trying to say. MCown, IMO is a project QB. Take a flier on him, try to develop him, hope it works out, not too much risk in the equation.

Pennington was taken to be the future of the team, lots of risk invested in him and take him in the 1st round b/c of how good a QB he should be!

See the difference?

 

[Cardinal Bob]

My lock of this draft:

That the "fans" (i.e. naysayers, darksiders, whatever you wanna call 'em) on this board will start no fewer then half a dozen threads, before the next two teams' picks are in (currently NY Giants & Deadskins),screaming about "how we drafted the wrong guy/Dennis Green sucks/Bidwill sucks/same ol' Cardinals/we're gonna suck again this season/we'll only win 2 games if we're lucky/etc."

Take it to the bank.