What the 2013 Draft Teaches Us About Keim

[kerouac9]

But you have said in the past that we can't afford two great CBs.

And Dee Miliner is not on the same level as Patrick Peterson, who now looks like the best CB prospect to come out in many years.

So you're saying that we passed on the BPA for need?

I'm not making a value judgement on this. A good friend of mine has a great eye for CB talent (Loved Dre Bly when he was coming out), and thought that Milliner had a chance to be special.

When I watched film on Milliner, I was concerned that he didn't backpedal. Then I learned from Chris Brown (@smartfootball) that Saban doesn't want his corners in backpedal at all. So then was less concerned.

Say that Milliner is not on the same level as Peterson, and is instead on the level of Jonathan Joseph or Antonio Cromartie. Would that make this team better than having a very good guard? Especially when we reportedly have a secondary coaching savant as our DC?

 

[Chopper0080]

Jonathan Cooper was defintely a need pick, that should be unquestioned. Where it worked for the Cardinals is that he was also one of the top 15 players in this draft which is why they drafted him.

I am not sold on Milliner or Austin, but either one could have been argued as a better player available, along with Star Lotulelei. Why, IMO, it was better to go with Cooper is because we didn't need to hit a home run with this pick and it wasn't the draft board to do so. We took a plug and play starter with our #7 pick at a huge position of need. Was it at a prime position? No. Were there other players available that might be more impactful? Maybe. Did those players come with the solid resume of Cooper? No.

IMO this draft played out very well for the Cardinals in terms of taking pressure off of them to make a "sexy" pick. Mingo, Jordan and Ansah were all gone, along with the top 3 OTs. The pick was easy and it should have been.

 

[kerouac9]

IMO this draft played out very well for the Cardinals in terms of taking pressure off of them to make a "sexy" pick. Mingo, Jordan and Ansah were all gone, along with the top 3 OTs. The pick was easy and it should have been.

Absolutely. I didn't have Ansah on my board (I don't want anything to do with that guy, and I think that Keim is probably with me, based on his clear preferences for experienced players), but I had the 3 OTs, Mingo, and Jordan above Cooper, and then Milliner right below.

Why below? Because Milliner wasn't a particular need.

 

[MadCardDisease]

I dunno. I think that the BPA regardless of need was probably Dee Milliner, and you can make the argument that Star Loutouleilei was, as well. If they both become special players, I'd rather have a special CB than special OG.

I thought you didn't like either of these players for the Cardinals? This was from the morning of the draft regarding Star:

He's a bad fit for a 3-4, no matter what Mike Mayock and Walterfootball believe. His a one-technique in a 4-3 defense, IMO.

He's too tall to be a NT and too heavy to be a five-technique DE.

Why isn't J.J. Watt on your list? Oh, maybe it's because he's 6'5", 295. But maybe the most dominant 3-4 DE in the NFL slipped your mind.

I think he'll be a very good one-technique in a 4-3 defense, but I don't think he has a role as anything but a nose in a 3-4, and we already have a first-round nose tackle and a 3-rd down DT in David Carter. What's the value here?

If that is true why would he be the BPA for the Cardinals?

 

[kerouac9]

I thought you didn't like either of these players for the Cardinals? This was from the morning of the draft regarding Star:



If that is true why would he be the BPA for the Cardinals?

Because someone could have a better/different evaluation of Loutouleilei than I do. CBus certainly did, and Mayock believed that he washe best 3-4 DE in the class.

The thing is that a cornerback in particular is always more valuable than a guard. There isn't a team in the NFL that wouldn't rather have a Pro Bowl corner than a Pro Bowl guard, salaries, etc., being equal.

As I said, I didn't think that the Cards needed either a corner or a DE/NT (although I seem to disagree with the front office about the Cards needed a nose tackle), so I preferred to see the Cards take the best prospect available at a position of need.

I don't know why people are having a visceral reaction to the statement that Keim clearly was drafting for need. There's no problem with it; let's just admit to the reality. IMO, we could be splitting hairs on Milliner vs. Cooper in a couple of years just as much as some like to split hairs on Fitz vs. Phil Rivers.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

I think Cooper was a better pick than all but 2 of the picks before us. 1. Joeckel. 2. Fisher.

Everyone else screwed up in some way, shape, or form.

Miami, gave up way to much and he is a poor system fit.
Detroit, Ziggy is a boom or Bust guy. Could be bagging groceries in 3 years.
Philly, Lane Johnson is no better than a #15 pick. He won with "hype" and "measurables". Not tape.
Cleveland, Mingo is another boom or bust guy. No pure moves, but a ton of athletic ability.

How do you get your signature picture to show up? The one I'm trying to post is just a little smaller than yours. Is there a waiting period or something?

Edit: nevermind its showing now

 

[BigRedRage]

if you get a hardon for BPA only you can end up drafting a WR 3 years in a row like detroit. BPA makes sense within means of what your team needs.

 

[WildBB]

You know who else drafts for need?

Everyone. Some are just more obvious than others.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

Everyone. Some are just more obvious than others.

Exactly everyone drafts for need, but some teams "reach" for need and that is the difference. A prime example of the former is the Cards pick of Cooper. A good example of the latter is the C that the Cowboys took in the first round.

 

[Denny Green Fan]

Exactly everyone drafts for need, but some teams "reach" for need and that is the difference. A prime example of the former is the Cards pick of Cooper. A good example of the latter is the C that the Cowboys took in the first round.

After the Cowboys made the pick did u see the Cowboy fan holding up a

sign that said " Hey can we trade our picks for a GM ? Too funny. I thought

Shariff Floyd would of been a great pick for them. Then get Frederick in

the second round.

 

[Monty]

Jonathan Cooper was defintely a need pick, that should be unquestioned. Where it worked for the Cardinals is that he was also one of the top 15 players in this draft which is why they drafted him.

What? How do you know? Do you have inside info on what the Cards draft board looked like or that they had someone rated higher than Cooper at #7? Unless you do then you're above claim is definitely questionable.

Threads like this seem fun because it is interesting to speculate what the thinking behind decisions may be. To do that acknowledging that it's a product of speculation is understandable and to some fun. However it is mind boggling how some posters claim to know exactly what the Cards FO was thinking, what the 120 board looks like or what the Cards FO draft philosophy/process is like.

It may well be that Cooper was ranked lower than some players available at #7 and Keim & Co made the pick based on need but we dont know that. Sure you can argue that with the Cards having a need at OL and picking an OG that need may have factored into the decision. This may very well be true but without any knowledge of what the Cardinals board looked like and who was the highest rated player on their board when they were picking, this is just pure speculation without any factual foundation.

This whole thread and most of the arguments in it are products of assumptions and pure guess work and that's fine as most posters acknowledge that, but for anyone to claim they know for definite what the Card board looked like or what they were thinking when making their picks (essentially what you are doing with the above claim) is just ridiculous.

 

[DoTheDew]

On Keim drafting for needs:

I think it could be said that he proved he's willing to work the draft so BPA and need are closely aligned. For the most part, this is the ideal draft strategy. The past regime was far too scared to trade down after they got burned 1 time.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

What makes me feel Cooper could easily have been BPA, of course along with need, is the texts I received from my scouting friend.

Toward the beginning of the draft, the very first text he sent me was, "they should take Cooper from UNC, very good player."

Then, when the Cards were up he sent, "Cooper is the best of the group left." This was after I had said I wanted the pick to be Lotulelei or Warmack.

If he didn't like him, he wouldn't have been shy about telling me. When I asked about other players, he was brutaly honest.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

Imo once Mingo went at 6 either Cooper or Warmack became the BPA and It became completely obvious that the Cards would take one of them.

 

[GuernseyCard]

Imo once Mingo went at 6 either Cooper or Warmack became the BPA and It became completely obvious that the Cards would take one of them.

How do we know that Mingo was rated above Cooper?

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

How do we know that Mingo was rated above Cooper?

Not saying he was, just that him being gone all but guarenteed it came down to the guards. In other words IMO he was the only player after the 5th pick that had a chance of being rated ahead of Cooper.

 

[Azlen]

I think most teams probably tier players. So they may have four, five or more players at about the same rank and from that tier you put the positions you need on top. Occasionally you may have a player you have ranked in a higher tier fall to you and you may draft that player regardless of position, which I believe is what happened with Ellington this year. What you never want to do is drop a tier or two to draft a player at a position of need. That's always going to hurt you in the long run.

 

[Krangodnzr]

So you're saying that we passed on the BPA for need?

I'm not making a value judgement on this. A good friend of mine has a great eye for CB talent (Loved Dre Bly when he was coming out), and thought that Milliner had a chance to be special.

When I watched film on Milliner, I was concerned that he didn't backpedal. Then I learned from Chris Brown (@smartfootball) that Saban doesn't want his corners in backpedal at all. So then was less concerned.

Say that Milliner is not on the same level as Peterson, and is instead on the level of Jonathan Joseph or Antonio Cromartie. Would that make this team better than having a very good guard? Especially when we reportedly have a secondary coaching savant as our DC?

Absolutely. I think Cooper was a need pick, but as Chopper noted, he was one of the top 15 players in the draft.

Look at what Baltimore does, they draft need every year with most of their picks. But they get value with every pick and I think the Cards got very good value with each pick. That's what I think is key to being successful in the draft.

If teams were to draft BPA every pick, they would have extreme holes in key positions. It's just not feasible. Where teams run into to trouble is missing on key, high picks (Cody Brown) that are never even productive.

 

[52brandon]

Keim did draft for need. But he still took the best players at that spot. When the guy he wanted wasn't at that spot he found a way to trade down and get more value from it. I loved the draft. We filled needs AND got great players. Most impressive Cards draft I can remember. And it's only his first year at GM. I'm excited

 

[BACH]

5. Steve Keim doesn't know what to look for in rush linebackers. I like Alex Okafor, and I thought the Cards could draft him as early as the second round. But he was the 9th outside linebacker taken off the board, and he didn't become a priority until very late in the draft. Keim has been burned in the past on rush linebacker choices, both with Cody Brown and O'Brien Schofield. The least dynamic position in an otherwise-dynamic Arizona Cardinals defense has been rush linebacker. The Cards need to poach someone from a 3-4 franchise who can identify players who can get to the quarterback with speed and skill. I don't really care who it is, but I wonder if this organization is afraid to step to the plate. Lorenzo Alexander isn't going to get 6+ sacks per year.

Schofield was a 4th rounder. How on earth has Keim been burned by Schofield's production based on his 4th round.

It's also quite ironic that you always complain about this team drafting for need instead of BAP, but when it comes to not drafting edge rushers you complain that Keim spends his pick on non-rushers that are better value.

 

[52brandon]

Schofield was a 4th rounder. How on earth has Keim been burned by Schofield's production based on his 4th round.

It's also quite ironic that you always complain about this team drafting for need instead of BAP, but when it comes to not drafting edge rushers you complain that Keim spends his pick on non-rushers that are better value.

I didn't think Schofield was bad either. He's inconsistent, and maybe the competition with Okafor will push him harder. But at the least, he's been a solid contributor on special teams. I've sen him a lot as a blocker in PP's highlight returns

 

[Chopper0080]

What? How do you know? Do you have inside info on what the Cards draft board looked like or that they had someone rated higher than Cooper at #7? Unless you do then you're above claim is definitely questionable.

Threads like this seem fun because it is interesting to speculate what the thinking behind decisions may be. To do that acknowledging that it's a product of speculation is understandable and to some fun. However it is mind boggling how some posters claim to know exactly what the Cards FO was thinking, what the 120 board looks like or what the Cards FO draft philosophy/process is like.

It may well be that Cooper was ranked lower than some players available at #7 and Keim & Co made the pick based on need but we dont know that. Sure you can argue that with the Cards having a need at OL and picking an OG that need may have factored into the decision. This may very well be true but without any knowledge of what the Cardinals board looked like and who was the highest rated player on their board when they were picking, this is just pure speculation without any factual foundation.

This whole thread and most of the arguments in it are products of assumptions and pure guess work and that's fine as most posters acknowledge that, but for anyone to claim they know for definite what the Card board looked like or what they were thinking when making their picks (essentially what you are doing with the above claim) is just ridiculous.

We needed to improve the offensive line. That was a need. We drafted Jonathan Cooper. He filled that need. It was a need pick. How is this confusing?

Dallas did the same thing when they drafted Travis Frederick. The difference is that when the Cards picked, Cooper was widely considered a top 15 player while, when the Cowboys picked, Frederick was not considered one of the top 40 players in the draft.

 

[WildBB]

We needed to improve the offensive line. That was a need. We drafted Jonathan Cooper. He filled that need. It was a need pick. How is this confusing?

Dallas did the same thing when they drafted Travis Frederick. The difference is that when the Cards picked, Cooper was widely considered a top 15 player while, when the Cowboys picked, Frederick was not considered one of the top 40 players in the draft.

Anyone on the OL that they picked would have been considered need. We just happened to get pretty good value with our #1.

There were needs addressed throughout this draft starting with the #1 need everyone pretty much agreed on, the OL. #2 - Rush OLB (not met, but a great value picked later), #3 - Saftey (with the two starters jettisoned), #4 - ILB (picked ahead of #2 need because a key starter is suspended, and where very good value occured, and netted us another 4th Rd. pick which may have addressed further need #1, long term on the interior OL).

After that continued value met need at RB, WR (speed), TE.

Everyone should draft this well. Some over manipulate (Dallas) the draft. We did it just right, imo.

We'll have 1 All-Pro for sure possibly another. They'll be several starters and all have a chance to contribute significantly early.

 

[kerouac9]

Schofield was a 4th rounder. How on earth has Keim been burned by Schofield's production based on his 4th round.

It's also quite ironic that you always complain about this team drafting for need instead of BAP, but when it comes to not drafting edge rushers you complain that Keim spends his pick on non-rushers that are better value.

Because Schofield is not very good. He's not productive, and he hasn't stayed healthy. Before Schofield's injury, he was considered a late 1st, early 2nd round prospect. I'm a huge fan of Schofield, but at this point I'd be shocked if he came back in 2014.

I never complain about this team drafting for need instead of BAP. I'm fine drafting BPA at position of need (which is what Keim did, IMO). I'm sick of having the worst 3-4 OLBs in the NFL, and Keim in his capacity as super-scout has yet to identify a rush linebacker worthy of our draft position.

The only pick more valuable than a pass rusher is a quarterback, and Keim isn't drafting those, either. It's easy to downgrade a prospect so you don't draft him if you're not confident that he'll work out while giving a high grade to a prospect at a position with no utility. Say, a fullback with a 5th round grade.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

What is happening here is when people hear need pick they assume you are saying they reached. Cooper certainly wasnt a reach thus he is a pick that fit both need and bpa. The cowboys pick was a flat out need pick and was reach that is the big difference between those 2 picks.

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