What the 2013 Draft Teaches Us About Keim

[52brandon]

You do realize that you can make a need pick while also taking the best player available right? Monty has the same issue where he can't see that a need pick can also be a top ranked player. This is why picking for need (what we did drafting Cooper) is different than reaching for need (what we did drafting Levi Brown).

yes. I even stated as much earlier in the thread. My point is Keim drafted BPA. The fact that it also happened to fill needs is an extremely fortunate coincidence

 

[Krangodnzr]

Krang has said repeatedly in the past that teams are best off when they draft straight PBA in the first round (maybe two, but I definitely remember he said in Round 1), and then draft for need as necessary later on.

Yes you are correct, but we don't really know how draft boards stack up.

Was Cooper a reach at #7? I don't really think so. Just like most prognosticators have stated, he easily has Pro Bowl potential.

I like the Minter pick, but I don't think he was really the best player on the board. We would've been better served taking a better player and addressing ILB in round 3.

But the way it played out, the Cards did read the runs correctly since I don't think they would've been able to get a really good ILB in the third now.

While I think Keim drafted need, I also think he was very good at anticipating runs on players. If we had waited until after the 1st round to address guard, I don't think we would've gotten a prospect even close to as good as Cooper.

 

[WildBB]

Tut tut tut. Where do you go with someone that is so caught up in their own delusion that they cannot see they are just plainly grasping at straws?

Let me try this one more time as you still dont seem to get. Your initial post argued that in this draft we pick BASED on need without mentioning or suggesting BPA being factored into at all. Beyond that you argued that the picking of players BASED on neeed was UNQUESTIONABLE. I didnt want to have to go back to the reading comprehension but you are misunderstanding what Keim is saying. His whole point is that BPA was the UNDERLYING factor in the pick (since he was in their top highest rated players REGARDLESS of position) but that it HELPED that Cooper was an OG. The determining factor was BPA and Keim couldnt have put any simpler if he tried.

Now you are flip flopping and gasping at straws to try and make it look like you meant something else. at no point in your initial argument did you come close to suggesting that BPA played a factor and ONLY suggested NEED played a factor. Keim's words (even those that you have quoted above) go in the face of what you initially claimed. Its sad that just about everybody else can see it except you.

Sorry to butt in here. But you and Chopper are basically saying the same thing, more or less. We're splitting hairs here somewhat.

Gum-by-ya.

 

[Chopper0080]

Sorry to butt in here. But you and Chopper are basically saying the same thing, more or less. We're splitting hairs here somewhat.

Gum-by-ya.

Yeah, I just got that as well which is why I am done trying bring Monty a bit of clarity.

 

[kerouac9]

Yes you are correct, but we don't really know how draft boards stack up.

Was Cooper a reach at #7? I don't really think so. Just like most prognosticators have stated, he easily has Pro Bowl potential.

I like the Minter pick, but I don't think he was really the best player on the board. We would've been better served taking a better player and addressing ILB in round 3.

But the way it played out, the Cards did read the runs correctly since I don't think they would've been able to get a really good ILB in the third now.

While I think Keim drafted need, I also think he was very good at anticipating runs on players. If we had waited until after the 1st round to address guard, I don't think we would've gotten a prospect even close to as good as Cooper.

Yeah. I never anywhere on this thread or any other accused Keim and the Cards of reaching for need. I think it's clear that the Cards drafted for need, and Keim's comments in that CBSSportsline piece says essentially that. But until the Cards reach for someone, I don't really see it being a problem.

My bigger issue is last year when there were solid rush linebacker prospects on the board and the Cards drafted Michael Floyd. I think that presents a problem with how the Cards scout rush linebacker prospects. As I said on a different thread, the Cards last efforts at drafting the three most important positions on the football field have resulted in Matt Leinart, Cody Brown, and Levi Brown.

I firmly believe that had Johnson, Joekel, or Fisher been on the board when the Cards came on the clock, we would have taken one of them. I hope that if Dion Jordan or Barkevious Mingo were on the board when the Cards had come on the clock, we would have taken one of THEM, but I can't be sure.

At some point in the very near future the Cards are going to have to use a high pick on a pass rusher or a quarterback.

 

[Chopper0080]

Yeah. I never anywhere on this thread or any other accused Keim and the Cards of reaching for need. I think it's clear that the Cards drafted for need, and Keim's comments in that CBSSportsline piece says essentially that. But until the Cards reach for someone, I don't really see it being a problem.

My bigger issue is last year when there were solid rush linebacker prospects on the board and the Cards drafted Michael Floyd. I think that presents a problem with how the Cards scout rush linebacker prospects. As I said on a different thread, the Cards last efforts at drafting the three most important positions on the football field have resulted in Matt Leinart, Cody Brown, and Levi Brown.

I firmly believe that had Johnson, Joekel, or Fisher been on the board when the Cards came on the clock, we would have taken one of them. I hope that if Dion Jordan or Barkevious Mingo were on the board when the Cards had come on the clock, we would have taken one of THEM, but I can't be sure.

At some point in the very near future the Cards are going to have to use a high pick on a pass rusher or a quarterback.

They better be rady to in 2014 as it should be a decent class for both and the Cardinals have filled their other needs already. No excuses for those positions to not be priorities #1 and #2 in 2014 unless Levi craps the bed this season. Even then, OT is still one of those positions that our draft history has been poor at addressing.

 

[WildBB]

They better be rady to in 2014 as it should be a decent class for both and the Cardinals have filled their other needs already. No excuses for those positions to not be priorities #1 and #2 in 2014 unless Levi craps the bed this season. Even then, OT is still one of those positions that our draft history has been poor at addressing.

I can't complain about much they did this yr. They laid the foundation.

 

[Chopper0080]

I can't complain about much they did this yr. They laid the foundation.

Agreed and it was good draft to do that. Next year we need to hit home runs because the talent will be there.

 

[Krangodnzr]

They better be rady to in 2014 as it should be a decent class for both and the Cardinals have filled their other needs already. No excuses for those positions to not be priorities #1 and #2 in 2014 unless Levi craps the bed this season. Even then, OT is still one of those positions that our draft history has been poor at addressing.

Bridgewater or Boyd.

Clowney.

Some very good players next year. Mingo and Jordan are 2nd rounders compared to Clowney. I watch a lot of South Carolina, and he is honestly one of the top ten best college players I can remember, at least from a pro potential viewpoint.

 

[MadCardDisease]

My bigger issue is last year when there were solid rush linebacker prospects on the board and the Cards drafted Michael Floyd. I think that presents a problem with how the Cards scout rush linebacker prospects. As I said on a different thread, the Cards last efforts at drafting the three most important positions on the football field have resulted in Matt Leinart, Cody Brown, and Levi Brown.

I thought you liked Michael Floyd last year?

http://www.arizonasportsfans.com/vb/showpost.php?p=2617067&postcount=5

IMO the wideouts are value picks. Reiff and Martin are off the board for me, and I'm not even sure that I'd take Brockers ahead of the WRs, and I really like wideouts.

I just think that you and Duck are being a little pie-in-the-sky regarding what the Cards could get for a trade-down. I don't think that you'll get 2 additional draft picks from ANYONE to move down 5 spots, especially if one of them is a second. The cost difference between 13 and 25 isn't great enough to justify the risk of not getting a guy you want.

I'd rather have a trained Floyd for our 2013 first-round quarterback then hope that we can bring someone better than Andre Roberts in next offseason. The best thing to do for a young QB is drop him into a situation where all the other pieces are settled. Even if (when) Kolb flames out this year, whoever we bring in will have Fitz, Housler, Ryan Williams, Wells for another year, and the defense. Add in a top WR prospect like Flyod or Blackmon, and it'd be a better situation than than what Mark Sanchez walked into, and he made it to consecutive AFC Championship games.

To respond more directly to your original post, I'd make my Top 13 board something like:

1. Luck
2. RG3
3. Kalil
4. Melvin Ingram, OLB, South Carolina
5. Claiborne, CB, LSU
6. David DeCastro, OL, Stanford
-----
7. Justin Blackmon, WR, Oklahoma State
8. Cordy Glenn, OT, Georgia
9. Malcolm Floyd, WR, Notre Dame
-----
10. Stephon Gilmore, CB, South Carolina
11. Mark Barron, DB, Alabama
12. Donta Hightower, OLB, Alabama
13. Mike Adams, OT, Ohio State

The tier dropoffs are where the dashes are. I'd be fine drafting 7-9 with our 13th pick. If none of them are on the board, I wouldn't trade down lower than 25 without getting a 2nd round pick and at least a 2013 second-rounder along with the pick. I don't think that price would be available for Trent Richardson or whomever, but maybe.

If we can't get one of those 13 guys with our first pick in the draft, we'll have screwed up the first round.

Which rush LBs were you refering to?

 

[Monty]

Clowney is an absolute monster but as Chopper said there are several really good OLB/DE type prospects next year.

When i'm not on tour I help coach the HS linebackers at the Nike Football Training Camps (NTFC) and a number of guys that I saw at the training camps a few years back will be draft eligible next year. Probably one of the most talented group of pass rushers that I have seen come through the NTFC camps will either be seniors or draft eligible juniors next year.

 

[MadCardDisease]

BTW. My choice for a possible rush LB last year would have been Melvin Ingram. I was a little disappointed we didn't draft Ingram but after he really stuggled his rookie season I've gotten over that.

 

[kerouac9]

I thought you liked Michael Floyd last year?

http://www.arizonasportsfans.com/vb/showpost.php?p=2617067&postcount=5



Which rush LBs were you refering to?

It seems pretty clear that I liked Ingram, DeCastro, and Glenn ahead of Floyd. The argument could be made that if we were more focused on need we could have elevated someone like Hightower. It certainly seems now like Bruce Irvin would have been a nice choice, and he was also available when the Cards chose Floyd instead.

Chandler Jones also had a pretty productive rookie season for New England.

I was fine with the Michael Floyd choice when it was made, and I continue to believe that he was a fine prospect when we took him. But it's difficult to make the argument that this early we wouldn't have been better off taking even Whitney Mercilus.

 

[GuernseyCard]

I thought you liked Michael Floyd last year?

http://www.arizonasportsfans.com/vb/showpost.php?p=2617067&postcount=5



Which rush LBs were you refering to?

Melvin "one sack" Ingram

 

[Chopper0080]

Clowney is an absolute monster but as Chopper said there are several really good OLB/DE type prospects next years.

When i'm not on tour I help coach the HS linebackers at the Nike Football Training Camps (NTFC) and a number of guys that I saw at the training camps a few years back will be draft eligible next year. Probably one of the most talented group of pass rushers that I have seen come through the NTFC camps will either be seniors or draft eligible juniors next year.

Jadeveon Clowney - South Carolina
Chaz Sutton - South Carolina
Jackson Jeffcoat - Texas
Kareem Martin - North Carolina
Larry Webster - Bloomsburg
Anthony Barr - UCLA
Kyle Van Noy - BYU
Khalil Mack - Buffalo
Adrian Hubbard - Alabama
Trent Murphy - Stanford

 

[Chopper0080]

Bridgewater or Boyd.

Clowney.

Some very good players next year. Mingo and Jordan are 2nd rounders compared to Clowney. I watch a lot of South Carolina, and he is honestly one of the top ten best college players I can remember, at least from a pro potential viewpoint.

I like Chaz Sutton as well from South Carolina.

As far as QBs. I hope Kevin Hogan from Stanford declares as he will be an NFL stud. If not, Bridgewater, Mettenberger, or Fales would be nice. McCarron has some size questions, as does Boyd, and Logan Thomas has some film questions. If the redshirt soph class comes out it could be a banner year. Hogan, Hundley, Marriota, Bo Wallace and Manziel are all legitimate prospects though without a ton of experience.

This isn't even couting Aaron Murray, Derek Carr, Bryn Renner, James Franklin, Pete Thomas or Chase Rettig.

Lots of QB options coming around. The tough part is finding the right one who will project to the NFL.

 

[WildBB]

I like Chaz Sutton as well from South Carolina.

As far as QBs. I hope Kevin Hogan from Stanford declares as he will be an NFL stud. If not, Bridgewater, Mettenberger, or Fales would be nice. McCarron has some size questions, as does Boyd, and Logan Thomas has some film questions. If the redshirt soph class comes out it could be a banner year. Hogan, Hundley, Marriota, Bo Wallace and Manziel are all legitimate prospects though without a ton of experience.

This isn't even couting Aaron Murray, Derek Carr, Bryn Renner, James Franklin, Pete Thomas or Chase Rettig.

Lots of QB options coming around. The tough part is finding the right one who will project to the NFL.

Watch out for Aaron Murray! He could be THE GUY next yr.

 

[Duckjake]

The Cards can draft a QB every year which is fine but we won't need one until around 2017.