What To Do About Shawn

[azirish]

I am generally supportive of D'Antoni and have always been a Shawn Marion fan; but I think it is time for D'Antoni to bite the bullet and recognize that Marion is not a shooter.

The Suns system is about "find the open man, take the open shot" which works for everyone except Shawn. Opponents leave Shawn open because they know he is not a good shooter. Last season he shot just 80 of 252 for three 31.7%. But if anything, his mid range shots were even worse with 19 of 63 for 31%.

For the season, Shawn took 1071 field goal attempts, This was more than Nash and more than Stoudemire. Only Barbosa took more shots, but Barbosa hit 43.4% of his three point attempts.

Shawn is very good at the basket with shooting a 67.8% (371 of 547) and was acceptable in the short area at 43.2%; but only 31% for the combined mid and 3 point range. These statistics suggest that Shawn should simply pass rather than take the mid to long range shots, which are 29% of his shots.

An exception might be made for the right corner where he has consistently shot the three reasonably well:

2004-05 23 of 64 for 35.9%
2005-06 32 of 82 for 39.0%
2006-07 22 of 61 for 36.1%

So the question is why hasn't D'Antoni limited Marion to shooting in areas where he is effective? My fear is that it is an ego thing with Marion who is in total denial over his shooting and D'Antoni won't just shut his long range shooting down.

The brutal truth is that he has not shot threes well since 2002-03 except in the Spurs series... Go figure? In those six game he hit 8 of 17 for 47.1%. But against the Lakers, he shot only 4 of 17 for three.

Marion is a great talent, but he's not a shooter and D'Antoni needs to come to grips with that. The team is vastly better off when they use Marion as a cutter and gets him closer to the basket for offensive rebounds. IMHO, having him hang out on the three point arc doesn't even spread the floor because opponents don't respect his shot.

 

[elindholm]

I think you are correct that Marion's shooting hurts the team and yet the Suns will be forced to live with it. It's a bit similar to Barkley's three-point shooting, which was usually mired below 30% but which Westphal had to tolerate out of deference to Barkley's ego.

Shawn is very good at the basket with shooting a 67.8% (371 of 547)

I wouldn't describe that as "very good," considering how many of Marion's attempts are unguarded dunks. I would guess that, when there's a defender in the vicinity, he shoots barely 50% even when right at the rim. I've always considered his reputation as a "great finisher" to be bunk, and the statistic you've quoted sure seems to back up my skepticism.

Marion is a liability on offense, period. It's useful to see the numbers that make the issue even clearer, but even without them, it has been fairly evident for at least a couple of years now. The best thing he does is cherry pick and wait for an outlet pass from Nash -- and let's face it, there are a lot of players in the NBA who could do that.

 

[BC867]

He is also not a Power Forward, but is tying up that spot, especially with Grant Hill here.

Shawn cannot help keep Amare out of foul trouble, and that is our biggest frontcourt priority -- a second and third Big (one to start in Marion's spot and one to come off the bench).

Of course, his putting the kabash on the 3-way trade which would have brought Kevin Garnett here and partially accomplishing that puts him in a bad public relations position with Suns fans.

Not to mention his constant whining to the Press and discontent with his recognition, which has actually placed him on a higher lever than I believe he deserves. Especially come playoff time.

I will never forgive him for killing the KG deal. That would have made us a legitimate Championship contender. Right now we're no closer than the last few years.

Actually right now, we're farther away -- trying to talk an aged Power Forward out of retirement.

 

[elindholm]

He is also not a Power Forward, but is tying up that spot, especially with Grant Hill here.

Shawn cannot help keep Amare out of foul trouble, and that is our biggest frontcourt priority -- a second and third Big (one to start in Marion's spot and one to come off the bench).

Of course, his putting the kabash on the 3-way trade which would have brought Kevin Garnett here and partially accomplishing that puts him in a bad public relations position with Suns fans.

Not to mention his constant whining to the Press and discontent with his recognition, which has actually placed him on a higher lever than I believe he deserves. Especially come playoff time.

I will never forgive him for killing the KG deal. That would have made us a legitimate Championship contender. Right now we're no closer than the last few years.

Actually right now, we're farther away -- trying to talk an aged Power Forward out of retirement.

Nice to read a post of yours that doesn't blame everything on the Colangelos. I agree with most of your points. For what it's worth, I heard that the deal Marion killed was a straight one with Boston (not sure for what), not the three-way for Garnett. Either way, being stuck with Marion and unwilling to pay luxury tax means that the Suns have retreated from the league's elite.

 

[YouJustGotSUNSD]

where did you hear that? The bos-phx trade was always one i wanted more info on, we just heard marion declined the deal, but he nor his agent nor the suns were ever quoted talking about it.

 

[elindholm]

where did you hear that? The bos-phx trade was always one i wanted more info on, we just heard marion declined the deal, but he nor his agent nor the suns were ever quoted talking about it.

He keeps quiet about it, but there's a (former) regular on this board who is in contact with the Suns brain trust pretty frequently, and once in a while he sends something along to me. Obviously he has to keep a low profile.

 

[BC867]

Nice to read a post of yours that doesn't blame everything on the Colangelos. I agree with most of your points.

Why would I blame the Colangelo's. Jerry won a Championship for Phoenix.

Oops, that was with the D'backs.

By the way, I recently heard we were getting a new neighbor, whose name is Eric Lindholm. When I met him, I asked, "Are you an attorney from L.A.?"

He said, "No, I do deliveries and have never lived in California."

So I guess I won't get to meet you.

(I still hold the C's responsible for the Suns reaching the finals only two times (0-2) in 39 years.)

 

[azirish]

I'd hate to back the Colangelos in any sort of gambling. They miss getting Kareem on their first draft all the way to the final jinx this year with the Atlanta pick right before leaving.

Blaming the Colangelos for the Bulls getting Jordan (the only reason the Suns lost) is not all that fair. But whatever, the jinx does seem to hold.

If you want the real answer to the Suns problem, it is that the Colangelos refused to let the team tank enough seasons to draft enough serious bigs. Someone talked about how few bigs make the All Star team that were not at least taken in the top 10 and typically in top 5 picks. The few exceptions tended to be unproven HS guys, most of whom are total crap shoots.

It's not that the Suns don't try. The problem is that even with good draft positions, they tend to fall just out of the money players. It was total fluke that Amare was available at #9. Their history is lttered with "reaches":

1985 - Ed Pinckney
1986 - William Bedford
1987 - Armon Gilliam (2nd pick in the draft ahead of Pippen, KJ, McKey, Horace Grant, and Reggie Miler)
1988 - Tim Perry (did pick up Majerle later in the draft)
1989 - Anthony Cook
1992 - Oliver Miller
1993 - Malcolm Mackey
1994 - Wesley Person
1995 - Mario Bennett
1996 - Steve Nash
1999 - Shawn Marion
2000 - Jake Tsakalidis
2002 - Amare Stoudemire/Casey Jacobsen
2003 - Zarko[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] Cabarkapa/Leandro Barbosa[/FONT]

Conclusions? The repeatedly tried to draft bigs and have had a disproportionate number of flops (or in the case of Oliver a guy who ate himself out of the NBA).

On the trade front, they've tried to trade for bigs and either screw it up in the case of McDyess, choose very badly in the case of Longley, or get a guy who was never healthy in the case of Googs and Hot Rod.

The result has been a team that has had to get by with journeyman centers like Mark West, Jake Voskuhl, Scott Williams, Mark Bryant, Joe Klein, and a seemly endless list of bigs who just weren't very good.

It is scary to think that Kurt Thomas at 6'9" 250 was the best of the lot (except Amare, McDyess, and perhaps Cliff Robinson - none of whom are classic bigs). For example, Googs had some offensive skills in his brief moments, but was not much of defender.

Obviously if the Suns FO was more brilliant, they'd have found the guy they were looking for. But the notion that they just don't like big guys seems to me to be a misunderstanding of the Colangelos. From what I can tell, they loved bigs. It's just that the love wasn't returned.








Except for Amare, the Suns have b

 

[playstation]

this 'deference' to shawn's ego has GOT to stop.

d'antoni should be demoted for that alone. if he keeps deferring, the suns will continue to be bit by that.

i don't even look at shawn as the problem there. its mikeD. good coaches know how to present a situation to a player such that they don't flip out and instead follow because they recognize its for the good of the team.

i love the idea of the uber-green light, but only when its in your range. bell isn't allowed to shoot half-court shots just because he's open. marion needs to be explained, using shot charts, exactly what his range is, and let it be known that he has a total green light in that area, but outside of it he can't just be letting it fly.

this is another place where dantoni needs to get a clue. again i must bring up the bulls. if ron harper or toni kukoc or steve kerr took a couple bad shots on offense (or missed a couple defensive assignments), their butts were on the bench. you might suffer in the short run, but this is how you TEACH.

i really think dantoni should be like the tex winter of our team: install a system and make sure its executed, but don't expect him to actually allow the team to grow, don't expect him to think on the fly, don't expect him to tinker.

 

[Chaplin]

Why does everyone make Shawn Marion out to be a cancer, year after year after year? Sure, he has a fragile ego and spends a lot of time by himself, but who cares? Assuming that he is a cancer because of it is just presumption--everybody here is considering it a fact. (Along with his so-called veto of a Boston trade, which was never verified by an official source)

 

[elindholm]

Why does everyone make Shawn Marion out to be a cancer

I didn't read anyone calling him a cancer.

(Along with his so-called veto of a Boston trade, which was never verified by an official source)

Are you suggesting that an official source would report it if it were true?

 

[Chaplin]

I didn't read anyone calling him a cancer.

You guys read between the lines on all these rumor articles, why can't anyone read between the lines on posts from this board? There are people here that literally hate the guy. For no reason other than his big contract and constant rumors of his being anti-Suns.

Are you suggesting that an official source would report it if it were true?

No. You are assuming it is true all on your own. A lot of people here don't care if it comes from an official source--if it's about Marion and it's negative, then it's got to be true, right?

Shawn has some issues with his game, and his contract is an albatross, but the hatred that comes across for him on this board is mind-boggling. The fact is that we wouldn't be winning nearly as much games without him. And he certainly isn't causing us to lose games either. He's got a bad contract--that was offered by the team, not Shawn, by the way--so we have to live with it, unfortunately. I'm glad we have Shawn the player, not so happy about Shawn the contract. But people make all his shortcomings way overblown to justify the opinion that his contract isn't very good.

Shawn is a very good player, perhaps not worth his huge contract, but a very good player nonetheless.

 

[elindholm]

You guys read between the lines on all these rumor articles, why can't anyone read between the lines on posts from this board? There are people here that literally hate the guy. For no reason other than his big contract and constant rumors of his being anti-Suns.

That could be, but that's a far cry from "everyone" making him out to be a cancer.

No. You are assuming it is true all on your own.

Come on, Chaplin, you know very well who my source is.

Shawn has some issues with his game, and his contract is an albatross, but the hatred that comes across for him on this board is mind-boggling.

Pointing out the ways that he's bad for the team is a long way from hating him.

The fact is that we wouldn't be winning nearly as much games without him.

That would depend on how he was replaced. Just delete him from the roster with no compensation, and sure, the Suns would be much worse off. For one thing, they'd be down to six capable players instead of seven. But it goes without saying that there are dozens of ways that Marion's financial slot -- and given ownership's obsession with minimizing luxury tax, we have no choice but to think of it that way -- could be reallocated in ways that would make the team better. Unfortunately, the Suns are stuck, because the market for Marion is (appropriately) soft, and he vetoed a trade to the one GM that really wanted him.

Shawn is a very good player, perhaps not worth his huge contract, but a very good player nonetheless.

We can't debate a term like "very good" without defining it. Marion is not one of the top 30 players in the league for the game that counts, which is playoff basketball. He's probably not in the top 50.

 

[arwillan]

aside from his lack of offensive skills at times, we need to stop pretending with him on defense. he cant guard duncan (which he did a few times in the spurs series). he really should not have been on parker, he isnt quick enough imo. he got eaten alive

 

[Mainstreet]

If one wants to ignore Marion's 3-point shooting lapses, Marion, IMO, is a much better and more versatile player than Rashard Lewis. There is nothing wrong with Marion other than he costs too much money. Marion has also made a number of All-Star teams along the way so I don't think he is as bad as some on this board imply.

 

[Mainstreet]

aside from his lack of offensive skills at times, we need to stop pretending with him on defense. he cant guard duncan (which he did a few times in the spurs series). he really should not have been on parker, he isnt quick enough imo. he got eaten alive

I think defense is where Marion gets hammered by fans the most. Sadly Marion is one of the Suns best defensive players but lacks the skills you mention. Maybe some of the fans should be voicing their resentment towards the rest of the roster.

 

[elindholm]

If one wants to ignore Marion's 3-point shooting lapses, Marion, IMO, is a much better and more versatile player than Rashard Lewis.

I'd agree with that, and I can guarantee that the Magic and their fans will be regretting Lewis's contract before it's up. The smart ones are regretting it already.

 

[Chaplin]

We can't debate a term like "very good" without defining it. Marion is not one of the top 30 players in the league for the game that counts, which is playoff basketball. He's probably not in the top 50.

So? Why does it matter if he's in the top 50? I think he is (name 49 other players that are better than him--that's 4 full teams worth of players). How can someone be generally considered the best role player in the game in a league where there are nowhere near 49 players that can carry their teams? Just like most of your posts that are anti-Marion, it comes across more like sour grapes.

And no, I might have known at one time, but I do not know who your source is now. I could take a guess, but I'd probably be wrong.

 

[azirish]

As I siad, I am generally very supportive of Shawn. I'd just like D'Antoni to use him more effectively.

One issue that Eric brought up deserives more discussion. Eric says that Shawn is not a good "finishers". I think the problem with this discussion is that there are two different defenitions of what it means to be a finisher.

POWER FINISHER: I define a power finisher as asomeone who can get to the basket against substantial opposition. Amare could very well be the best power finisher in the NBA and certainly in the top two or three.

SPEED FINISHER: One of the more difficult things to do is to put the ball int he basket while running flat out with someone on your tail. Frequently players miss those shots or slow down enough that the defender can cut the man off from the basket or even block the shot.

Marion is not much of a power finisher. But he is certainly one of the finest speed finishers in the NBA. Get him the ball with a step and he very rarely misses. It's a huge weapon.

This is obvioulsy true with Shawn on the break, but it is gnerally true when using him as a cutter as well. The unfortunately part is that this part of his game is very under utiliazed. He is great at alley oop plays and back door cuts because he can get the ball in the hole without hesitation.

I contrast Marion's style with that of Diaw. Not only does Boris refuse to use the power finishing he is capable of, but tends to slow down getting to the basket which gives the weak side defnder time to react. Marion doesn't hesitate if there is an opening, but is even more relucant to attack if there isn't an clear path.

So while I wish Marion was a better power finisher, I think Eric has an overly restrictive definition of what a finisher is.

 

[dodie53]

what to do with shawn?

trade him and LB for kobe

 

[95pro]

If one wants to ignore Marion's 3-point shooting lapses, Marion, IMO, is a much better and more versatile player than Rashard Lewis. There is nothing wrong with Marion other than he costs too much money. Marion has also made a number of All-Star teams along the way so I don't think he is as bad as some on this board imply.

wasnt he "voted" in by the coaches selections?

 

[BC867]

You guys read between the lines on all these rumor articles, why can't anyone read between the lines on posts from this board? There are people here that literally hate the guy. For no reason other than his big contract and constant rumors of his being anti-Suns.

I don't think anyone "hates the guy".

It's his behavior that is detrimental to the team. Looking for individual recognition from the Press, despite already getting more accolaids than he deserves.

And his presence. A Small Forward playing Power Forward. Neither is his comfort zone any more.

Playing Small Forward on offense from the 3-point line. Or as an undersized Power Forward, giving no relief to Amare as the only 'big' in the starting lineup. Right now, scratch the word "starting". He's the only 'big' we have who'll get playing time.

Hate Shawn Marion? No. Want to see him gone because he's holding back the team? Definitely.

And that's without mentioning (again) costing us Kevin Garnett.

 

[Chaplin]

I don't think anyone "hates the guy".

It's his behavior that is detrimental to the team. Looking for individual recognition from the Press, despite already getting more accolaids than he deserves.

How is that detrimental? Do you have an on-court example that supports that assertion?

And his presence. A Small Forward playing Power Forward. Neither is his comfort zone any more.

Playing Small Forward on offense from the 3-point line. Or as an undersized Power Forward, giving no relief to Amare as the only 'big' in the starting lineup. Right now, scratch the word "starting". He's the only 'big' we have who'll get playing time.

Hate Shawn Marion? No. Want to see him gone because he's holding back the team? Definitely.

I can't believe you actually believe that. Amazing. Shawn Marion's CONTRACT might be an issue, but Shawn Marion the player isn't holding back anyone. Unbelievable.

And that's without mentioning (again) costing us Kevin Garnett.

Again, unsubstantiated rumor and innuendo. It's quite possible that he vetoed the Boston trade, but it certainly is very possible that it was a made up story.

 

[Chaplin]

wasnt he "voted" in by the coaches selections?

So? Amare was never "voted" in by the fans, so by that rationale, he should be held to the same standard as Shawn when it comes to being an All-Star.

 

[Rab]

This thread got ridiculous in a hurry.

Are we not allowed to discuss Suns shortcomings on this board? Anytime something negative is said about this team/player, there always has to be that certain someone who comes in and assumes that the naysayer hates the team and/or said player. Is it not possible for posters to discuss reasonable ways the team can change for the better? People seem to get extremely sensitive when it comes to Shawn. I would venture to say that there aren't a lot of people here who really hate Shawn Marion. I do think he could be better utilized however, and his ego can sometimes be a turn off, but when he hits the floor, I root for him. It's seems as though it's bascially okay for us to rag on Amare's defense because he's Amare, or rag on LB's turnover issues, but it's not cool to discuss ways to make Shawn more effective because it becomes "everybody hates Shawn for no good reason...blah blah blah" crap we've heard 1000 times over.

In response to the original post. When George posted the number of 3's Marion took, I was have to say I was a bit surprised, and a little disgusted. Shawn is one of those players where every time he shoots from 3, I cringe. I have always been one of the people who wished he would shoot less from downtown. I would also agree that Mike needs to bring in the reigns a little for him. I know players love to play for him because he teaches if the shot is there, take it, but I don't think it would hurt to keep Marion away from the line more. He's at his best when he is cutting and moving without the ball. Some more motion of offense wouldn't be a bad idea IMO. Keep Marion moving. He's great at finding open spots on the floor, and with Nash & Grant in the lineup, that should make his life easier because they'll find him. He plays well with Boris too. They've developed great chemistry when they're in the game together too.

Of course, I wouldn't mind seeing the Suns take less 3's all together, but that's just me.