What To Do About Shawn

[nashman]

Ridiculous would also be saying the Suns have fallen out of the NBA's elite! That may be one of the most ridiculous statements I have ever read on this forum. I think I need a break from the negativity geesh!

 

[azirish]

It is very hard to make even minor suggestions without it turning into a torrent of stuff being dumped onto Marion. So while it is possible Marion shoots too much because of ego, it is equally possible he does it because of the D'Antoni "take the open shot" philosophy.

Rab got my main point though, IMHO Shawn should be moved around more and used as cutter where he is so good rather than hanging out on arc. If he is going to shoot threes, have him go to the right corner where is actually pretty good.

One thing about planning for use of Marion as a cutter is that it would end this "we don't run any plays for him" stuff. They should run plays with back screens and the like rather than leaving him to his own devices.

 

[95pro]

So? Amare was never "voted" in by the fans, so by that rationale, he should be held to the same standard as Shawn when it comes to being an All-Star.

that was a serious question i asked.lol no sarcasm, no shots taken at anyone.lol

since the fans didnt vote shawn into the all-star, he was voted in by the coaches a couple of times, right? im just wondering, that's all.

if the coaches did vote him in a couple of time, votes coming from coaches speaks a lot about what other coaches/players think about shawn.

even i was speaking with tone or sarcasm, where the **** did STAT come into this thread?lol

 

[zett]

I think we should demand 20/10 and good defense or we trade him to the bobcats!

 

[Chaplin]

that was a serious question i asked.lol no sarcasm, no shots taken at anyone.lol

since the fans didnt vote shawn into the all-star, he was voted in by the coaches a couple of times, right? im just wondering, that's all.

if the coaches did vote him in a couple of time, votes coming from coaches speaks a lot about what other coaches/players think about shawn.

even i was speaking with tone or sarcasm, where the **** did STAT come into this thread?lol

It sounded like you were using the fact that he was never voted in by fans as maybe him not being a legitimate All-Star. Which would apply to Stoudemire if that was the case.

But it appears you meant the opposite, so my apologies.

 

[F-Dog]

What to do about Shawn? Nothing.


It seems like his shooting is destined to get worse as he gets older (his defense has improved at about the same pace IMO). It's getting to the point where the Suns need to play him at PF full time--or alternatively, get wing-quality shooting from one of the power positions.

If he's healthy, I think Grant Hill will help the Suns force teams to choose between matching PFs against Shawn (allowing him to be effective as a garbageman) or going small.

 

[Errntknght]

One thing about planning for use of Marion as a cutter is that it would end this "we don't run any plays for him" stuff. They should run plays with back screens and the like rather than leaving him to his own devices.

If you've watched many games since D'Antoni started coaching you'd know he doesn't instruct players to set off ball screens. With KT gone the number of them will probably drop dramatically because he set them on his own. Hill is a smart player so I imagine he'll set a few but not near the number KT did.

 

[azirish]

If you've watched many games since D'Antoni started coaching you'd know he doesn't instruct players to set off ball screens. With KT gone the number of them will probably drop dramatically because he set them on his own. Hill is a smart player so I imagine he'll set a few but not near the number KT did.

Generally D'Antoni focuses on "spreading the floor", but IMHO this does not make maximum use of his player's skills. I am hopeful that adding Hill and moving Diaw inside will trigger some ofther changes. But I'm with you in getting frustrated by how many opportunties are being missed.

 

[Maligzar]

Generally D'Antoni focuses on "spreading the floor", but IMHO this does not make maximum use of his player's skills. I am hopeful that adding Hill and moving Diaw inside will trigger some ofther changes. But I'm with you in getting frustrated by how many opportunties are being missed.

I understand the desire to improve the team, but don't you feel a little silly saying that D'Antoni doesn't maximize his players skills? We were #1 in every single offensive category last year. How much more offensive production are you looking for?

Offense is not this team's problem, and it won't be the problem this year.

We can't debate a term like "very good" without defining it. Marion is not one of the top 30 players in the league for the game that counts, which is playoff basketball. He's probably not in the top 50.

This statement is simply not true. An neither is this one:

Either way, being stuck with Marion and unwilling to pay luxury tax means that the Suns have retreated from the league's elite.

Shawn averaged a double double in the playoffs. Please list me 30 other players that accomplished the same task. Also, please include how many of those players guarded point guards, centers, and forwards.

Game 5 against the Spurs:

PTS: 24
RB: 17
AS: 1
S:1
B:1

There are 30 other players that could accomplish this against the Spurs?

I love how the sky is falling without the season even starting. "We're no longer in the NBA elite" declared before a single whistle is even blown. Yet, pre-season polls by sports analysts have us listed at #4.

Shawn is a huge benefit to the team.

I find it hard to beleive that we were going to trade him straight up to Boston. We're not worse off for having Marion. While I agree that he is a bit overpaid, it's not like we could replace him with very many other players.

Shawn's biggest problem in my opinion is the media. I think they throw questions at him that they know will just bait him into a "headlines" type answer.

 

[elindholm]

Shawn averaged a double double in the playoffs. Please list me 30 other players that accomplished the same task.

I didn't say he was out of the top 30 for generating double doubles. Yes, he still gets his rebounds, and he scores just fine against teams in the bottom half of the playoff bracket.

Also, please include how many of those players guarded point guards, centers, and forwards.

Oh, here we go again. Just because he guarded that range of players doesn't mean he did it well. The only reason he defended Parker is because everyone else on the Suns was even worse at it. And his attempts to guard Duncan were an unmitigated disaster.

Game 5 against the Spurs:

Yeah, I saw it. Did you? Do you remember how Marion amassed those statistics?

Yet, pre-season polls by sports analysts have us listed at #4.

Ooh, "pre-season polls by sports analysts," please tell me which direction to bow in humble respect.

Anyway, I should have defined my use of "elite." I'd say #4 is probably about right for the Suns, behind the Spurs, Mavericks, and Pistons but ahead of the Celtics, Jazz, Cavaliers, etc. What I meant was, they are extremely long shots for the title. When's the last time the fourth-best team in the league won the championship coming through the tougher conference?

#4 isn't elite if it means you aren't in the running when it counts. Fans of any high playoff seed like to believe that their team has a chance, but they don't. Last year was unusual in that there were three teams in the Western Conference with a legitimate title hope. With the Suns having taken a large step back this summer, they are no longer at the approximate level of the Spurs or Mavericks -- even though they probably haven't fallen behind anyone else.

 

[fordronken]

Anyway, I should have defined my use of "elite." I'd say #4 is probably about right for the Suns, behind the Spurs, Mavericks, and Pistons but ahead of the Celtics, Jazz, Cavaliers, etc. What I meant was, they are extremely long shots for the title. When's the last time the fourth-best team in the league won the championship coming through the tougher conference?

#4 isn't elite if it means you aren't in the running when it counts. Fans of any high playoff seed like to believe that their team has a chance, but they don't. Last year was unusual in that there were three teams in the Western Conference with a legitimate title hope. With the Suns having taken a large step back this summer, they are no longer at the approximate level of the Spurs or Mavericks -- even though they probably haven't fallen behind anyone else.

I think we're a better team than the Pistons, for sure. But I really don't think they're that good anymore. And, I don't think that missing Kurt Thomas effects us against the Mavs. We could be worse than them, but not because of the players we lost.

 

[azirish]

I think we're a better team than the Pistons, for sure. But I really don't think they're that good anymore. And, I don't think that missing Kurt Thomas effects us against the Mavs. We could be worse than them, but not because of the players we lost.

Eric is going to keep pouting over losing KT which colors every post he makes. Even by his his own analysis, the only team that losing KT would seriously impact is the Spurs.

The Suns problems with the Spurs are not unique to the Suns. Everybody else has the same defensive problems. They start with the fact that nobody is able to guard either Duncan or Parker with just one guy. It's not just Marion that couldn't stop Parker. Deron Williams is supposed to be a great defender and Parker did better against the Jazz than he did against the Suns.

Against Suns: 20.8 ppg, 45.1% shooting, 0 for 8 for three, 23 of 33 FT, 5.7 assists

Against Jazz: 20.2 ppg, 48.1% shooting, 2 of 3 for three, 25 of 38 TF (5 games), 6.8 assists

One of reasons that the development of Strawberry is going to be such a big story is that he has the potential to be able to guard Parker. Bell is just not quick enough and Marion is needed to help on the inside.

 

[elindholm]

Even by his his own analysis, the only team that losing KT would seriously impact is the Spurs.

Wow, that's news to me. I guess I should be flattered that you read enough of my post to process that I discussed "Thomas" and "the Spurs," even though you lept to an entirely incorrect conclusion about what point I was making.

It took the severity of the Spurs situation to make D'Antoni realize what an asset Thomas could be, but the Suns would have been better off all season had he played more. As it happened, even without Thomas, the Suns were better than every team in the league except the Mavericks and Spurs. This board is sure that the Suns would have won a playoff series against Dallas, but the recent history between those two teams is so close that I wouldn't want to bet it one way or the other.

The Suns problems with the Spurs are not unique to the Suns. Everybody else has the same defensive problems. They start with the fact that nobody is able to guard either Duncan or Parker with just one guy. It's not just Marion that couldn't stop Parker. Deron Williams is supposed to be a great defender and Parker did better against the Jazz than he did against the Suns.

So your point is that the Suns are probably still better than the Jazz?

One of reasons that the development of Strawberry is going to be such a big story is that he has the potential to be able to guard Parker.

Oh please. Strawberry made the team by default, because they needed to fill a roster spot and he was the smallest player handy. Let's give him a handful of actual NBA games before we anoint him a playoff difference-maker.

 

[nashman]

Losing KT and JJ does not drop us from elite status period!! Not even mentioning adding Grant. KT helped against the Spurs but really just to keep Amare from picking up fouls, because Duncan abused Kurt as well. The key to beating the Spurs we have heard many times, contain Floppy and Parker! We don't have to stop Duncan no one ever does!

 

[elindholm]

And, I don't think that missing Kurt Thomas effects us against the Mavs. We could be worse than them, but not because of the players we lost.

I think that's an oversimplification. Under normal circumstances, Thomas wouldn't play much. But having him around would permit Stoudemire to make more of an effort on defense.

For years, the consensus on this board has been that Stoudemire plays such poor defense because he's afraid of getting in foul trouble, and the widespread speculation has been that D'Antoni lets Stoudemire's lapses slide -- or even encourages them outright -- because they can't afford to have him benched. Of course this problem would not have been so severe had D'Antoni recognized Thomas's value before the season's final five games.

With no backup big men, the Suns are going to be in panic mode with Stoudemire's fouls all season long. We can pretty much forget about the dramatic improvement in Stoudemire's defense that everyone keeps promising, because the referees are still going to be calling fouls on him.

Nash owns a psychological edge against the Mavericks and Dallas doesn't have much of an inside game, so the pipsqueak lineup with Diaw at center has some chance of success, as it did two years ago. But make no mistake: the Suns would be better off with Thomas, even against the Mavericks.

 

[nashman]

^Damn what are you his agent? Geesh he was too expensive for as much as he played its pretty simple. Sometimes cost needs to be cut and it was done with Kurt, we will survive. Any big they pick up will be able to fill his role good enough. We are still elite and still are contenders! Whether you agree with the offseason or not!

 

[fordronken]

I think that's an oversimplification. Under normal circumstances, Thomas wouldn't play much. But having him around would permit Stoudemire to make more of an effort on defense.

For years, the consensus on this board has been that Stoudemire plays such poor defense because he's afraid of getting in foul trouble, and the widespread speculation has been that D'Antoni lets Stoudemire's lapses slide -- or even encourages them outright -- because they can't afford to have him benched. Of course this problem would not have been so severe had D'Antoni recognized Thomas's value before the season's final five games.

With no backup big men, the Suns are going to be in panic mode with Stoudemire's fouls all season long. We can pretty much forget about the dramatic improvement in Stoudemire's defense that everyone keeps promising, because the referees are still going to be calling fouls on him.

Nash owns a psychological edge against the Mavericks and Dallas doesn't have much of an inside game, so the pipsqueak lineup with Diaw at center has some chance of success, as it did two years ago. But make no mistake: the Suns would be better off with Thomas, even against the Mavericks.

Would I rather have Thomas on the bench in a series against the Mavs? Absolutely. But I also think that he really does screw with our match ups. When KT is on the floor, it means the Mavs can play Dampier while Stoudemire is on the bench. Diop has proven he can be on the floor against Diaw, although hopefully that will change with a (fingers crossed) offensively improved Diaw(who, if he does improve, is great against the Mavs). The Mavs have two traditional centers that they like to play, but who aren't much of a threat on offense. In fact, if they try to exploit mismatches by running the offense through Dampier, I'll be extremely happy.

Stoudemire kills the Mavs and so does Nash. That means the Suns have two top tier players that the Mavericks can't do anything against. The only Mav who gets what he wants every single game against the Suns is Josh Howard, but I don't know what to do about that. I will say this: in a seven game series, if Nash and Stoudemire are in top form and can't be slowed down, I don't see the Mavs beating the Suns. Amare, even during the season last year when he was not even close to where he will be next year, was unbelievably efficient on offense against the Mavs. Throw in Nash, who will kick ass every single night, and you have a huge advantage in a playoff series. As much as we get annoyed with Marion and overhype his defense from time to time, he does a great job on Dirk.

The only thing the Mavs do defensively that even bothers the Suns, is when they send everybody they've got at Nash. But this team has too many weapons, and hopefully Grant Hill will get good at finding a spot on the floor to get the ball from Nash. From there, he can find the guy who is open. If they double Nash and Nash gets it to Hill, we'll score on that posession. Hill is too good at getting to the basket and/or finding the open guy off of a double team rotation.

 

[elindholm]

Okay, well argued. Let's hope we get the chance to find out in a playoff series next spring with all of the key players healthy.

 

[azirish]

Eric, your post was an attack on Marion which is what I responded to. My crack about KT coloring your mood is something I'll stand by, but my response was about you ragging on Marion's defense.

As for Strawberry making the team by default, I don't know where you get that. The Suns people said they tried to trade up to get him but could not get the deal done and were shocked he fell to #59. They really liked his athleticism and relentless defense. The fact that he may be a better playmaker than expected is a big plus, but not why he was so highly valued.

Clearly, the Suns think they can teach him to shoot. Obviously they could be wrong, but it reflects a new approach for a team that has previously tried to teach shooters to play defense. Both Strawberry and Tucker reflect an expressed desire by the team to add both athleticism and toughness to a team often viewed as soft.

 

[fordronken]

Okay, well argued. Let's hope we get the chance to find out in a playoff series next spring with all of the key players healthy.

I'm just trying to add hope to the world.

 

[elindholm]

Eric, your post was an attack on Marion which is what I responded to. My crack about KT coloring your mood is something I'll stand by, but my response was about you ragging on Marion's defense.

Uh, okay. I "ragged" on his defense only by bringing the previous poster down to earth. In case you didn't read that far, he said that Marion guarded players at every position, and I said that that really wasn't quite the accomplishment it sounds like. I think Marion is a fine defender, but claims of his ability to guard everyone are routinely overblown.

A standard tactic on this board is to exaggerate someone else's position so as to make it absurd, then attack the absurd distortion. I'd prefer that someone address my actual positions, but that requires a level of reading comprehension that is becoming increasingly rare.

As for Strawberry making the team by default, I don't know where you get that.

Well, who else were they going to sign? Casey Jacobsen has another gig.

The Suns people said they tried to trade up to get him but could not get the deal done and were shocked he fell to #59.

And therefore he's in the playoff rotation? Remember, if they liked him that much, they would have drafted Tucker at 24 and Strawberry at 29. Learn to read through spin. Also, the notion that they were unable to trade up into the early 50s is laughable. What did they offer, a package of Ramen noodles?

Clearly, the Suns think they can teach him to shoot.

Based on what? The fact that they signed him? They can't have any idea whether they'll be able to teach him to shoot. The guy has been playing basketball for probably at least 15 years, and the Suns have worked with him for about eight weeks.

Obviously they could be wrong, but it reflects a new approach for a team that has previously tried to teach shooters to play defense.

That is massive speculation. It could be true, but you have no evidence of it other than (a) the fact that those players were drafted and (b) your own desire for it to be true.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I love how the sky is falling without the season even starting. "We're no longer in the NBA elite" declared before a single whistle is even blown. Yet, pre-season polls by sports analysts have us listed at #4.

is it supposed to comfort us that we went into the playoffs last year as the #2 team/favorite in the league and now, going into the off-season with two picks in a loaded draft, we're now dropped to 4 by these analysts you speak of? When you're as close as the Suns are, getting worse in dealing with their toughest matchup is pretty disheartening IMO.

 

[BC867]

...but really just to keep Amare from picking up fouls...

"Just to keep Amare from picking up fouls" is necessary for our post-season success. Keep him on the court and not be afraid to play defense.

It appears, nashman, that you're treating it as an incidental item. Is that what you meant?

 

[nashman]

Thats what I mean our big man whoever it may be is to keep Amare out of foul trouble. I don't know how many times i wish we would have just put burke in to foul Duncan or whoever hard ALL 6 TIMES!!! I don't know why we don't use our fouls with our big men no matter who they are (except Amare of course).

 

[Lorenzo]

trade him to dallas.....please.